Rumor: 2019-2020 Trade Rumours and Free Agent Discussion Part 3

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Girard is certainly struggling. I still think EJ has been pretty solid personally.

But to me its pretty obvious that all of our struggles even on the defensive side stem back to losing Mikko and Gabe.

We are seeing just what kind of an impact Landeskog had on the ice on the defensive side. Not only was he taking some of the pressure off the forwards with his two-way game, but he took a lot of pressure off the Defense as well.

What made us so good before those two injuries was our quick transition game and how fast we were able to move the puck from Defense to Offense. Mikko and Gabe were a big part of that and without those two guys you have forwards now playing further up in the lineup than they should be and facing tougher matchups than they should be facing, makes it harder for them to play the game they were used to playing before.


We've also clearly see basically the two extremes of our season already this year. Things wont get any better than the start we had, where it seemed like every shot was going in and our goalies were making saves they shouldn't be making. On the flip side, right now we are struggling a tonne to score goals and our goaltending has come back down to Earth(Still good IMO but not 1st in the league good like it was).


These things will balance out in the long run. It'll be a tough stretch for the Avs without Mikko and Gabe and quite frankly if they're both out for say another couple months or longer it probably means we're in a fight for a wild card spot again rather than fighting for the division title.

But so long as we're in the playoff race when we get those guys back it should not change the plan whatsoever. This team is absolutely 1, maybe 2 Top 6 forwards and one good Defensive Dman away from making serious noise in the playoffs. Our plan this season should not change because of the injuries so long as we're within striking distance of the playoffs.

 

[henchman21]

I don’t think our defense is getting enough hate. It isn’t very good. Makar has his rookie adjustment struggles, EJ isn’t very good, Cole is a #6 at best. Graves shouldn’t be in the league. Zadorov is Zadorov and even Girard who started the season as our undoubtable number 1 has looked like **** for about 6-7 games.

The part that hurts most is that none of these guys can get Mackinnon the puck. I miss Barrie so much. Going from Nemeth to Graves on that PK is a huge downgrade too.

Yup... not having Barrie for 23 minutes a night is hurting. Outside of his production and PP abilities, he was able to consistently shift the ice to the Avs' side for his minutes to a higher degree than any other Avs' defender.

I know it is early, and this is a risk... but I think the Avs should call up Timmins to replace Graves in the lineup. Let Timmins run a PP unit to see if he can provide a spark there. Probably not the first unit, but some 2nd unit time to see if he can make an impact.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Yup... not having Barrie for 23 minutes a night is hurting. Outside of his production and PP abilities, he was able to consistently shift the ice to the Avs' side for his minutes to a higher degree than any other Avs' defender.

I know it is early, and this is a risk... but I think the Avs should call up Timmins to replace Graves in the lineup. Let Timmins run a PP unit to see if he can provide a spark there. Probably not the first unit, but some 2nd unit time to see if he can make an impact.

Yep k want that too. Rosen too if they wanted to go that way. It’s very “Avs” to not want to bring a prospect like Timmins up, down, up, down. They’ll probably leave him there to marinate until they know he’s ready to come up for good.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Last time I checked Barrie was part of the team when the Avs went through their horrific 2.5 months last season. Meanwhile the guy that is replacing him is on a 66-pt pace this season. I'm sure Barrie's great defensive play would help us a lot as well right now going through this. Yeah let's keep pretending he could save this team right now. Listen guys...I love Barrie as much as the next guy but he was going through big slump as much as the other guys on this team. He is gone. Let's move on.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Last time I checked Barrie was part of the team when the Avs went through their horrific 2.5 months last season. Meanwhile the guy that is replacing him is on a 66-pt pace this season. I'm sure Barrie's great defensive play would help us a lot as well right now going through this. Yeah let's keep pretending he could save this team right now. Listen guys...I love Barrie as much as the next guy but he was going through big slump as much as the other guys on this team. He is gone. Let's move on.

Its not that we’re discussing bringing Barrie back. It’s that he has left an enormous hole in the Avs attack. The game ran through him. He continuously gave Mackinnon the puck. We removed that from the lineup without putting it back. Sure Makar is a better player but he’s a different type of player.

 

[henchman21]

Last time I checked Barrie was part of the team when the Avs went through their horrific 2.5 months last season. Meanwhile the guy that is replacing him is on a 66-pt pace this season. I'm sure Barrie's great defensive play would help us a lot as well right now going through this. Yeah let's keep pretending he could save this team right now. Listen guys...I love Barrie as much as the next guy but he was going through big slump as much as the other guys on this team. He is gone. Let's move on.

Makar's pacing may or may not last. It is a long season and college kids tend to hit a wall. That said, you're missing the point being put out there. The Avs are missing a defender that can play 22-23 minutes a night and consistently tilt the ice in the Avs' favor. That doesn't have to be Barrie, but the Avs are missing that guy. It isn't as slight to Makar, it isn't an 'Avs made a huge mistake' sort of statement... but the that the Avs are sorely missing a top pairing defender right now. With the injuries up front, it is exposing the lack of depth and impact on the defensive side. If the Avs had a top pairing guy who could consistently tilt the ice in the Avs' favor, they'd be better equipped to push through this bout of injuries.

 

[oxenfree]

Last time I checked Barrie was part of the team when the Avs went through their horrific 2.5 months last season. Meanwhile the guy that is replacing him is on a 66-pt pace this season. I'm sure Barrie's great defensive play would help us a lot as well right now going through this. Yeah let's keep pretending he could save this team right now. Listen guys...I love Barrie as much as the next guy but he was going through big slump as much as the other guys on this team. He is gone. Let's move on.

This is nonsense. That bad stretch last year was marked by really good possession stats, low shooting percentages, and absolutely dogshit goaltending. The Avs skaters were playing the right way in front of the goalie, suppressing shots and pushing the play the other way. Barrie was a big part of that, regardless of game results.

The defensiveness around Barrie (especially after all the grave dancing) is really hilarious. People on this board are correctly identifying a problem the Avs have (the defense sucks at offense; it sucked at offense when the Avs were winning and it still sucks when they’re losing), correctly pointing that it is a result of losing Barrie, and correctly pointing out that it is contributing to losses.

When the defense is incompetent with the puck, it puts more pressure on the forwards. Right now that’s too much pressure because the forward depth is being tested so much.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I get what all three of you are saying and not necessarily disagreeing with it but I don't think we are missing Barrie as such. It's not a coincidence we are doing this bad when Girard is doing that poorly. If Girard was playing like he can Barrie's offensive play you guys are talking about would be covered easily between Makar and him. The other problem with this team is that no FWD is stepping up to pick up some of the slack left by the lost of Rantanen and Landy.

 

[oxenfree]

I get what all three of you are saying and not necessarily disagreeing with it but I don't think we are missing Barrie as such. It's not a coincidence we are doing this bad when Girard is doing that poorly. If Girard was playing like he can Barrie's offensive play you guys are talking about would be covered easily between Makar and him. The other problem with this team is that no FWD is stepping up to pick up some of the slack left by the lost of Rantanen and Landy.

When has Girard ever consistently played on a level that would be able to replace Barrie (or any other 50 point, positive possession play who can eat up 23 minutes a night, since you’re so sensitive about Barrie)? He’s had stretches and flashes, but all he is right now is potential, like Makar. Potential doesn’t help the team win right now. It especially doesn’t help see them through injuries.

The team can’t be both a contender and overly reliant on youth finding their way in time. You’re a contender once the youth has found its way and is producing and contributing at a high level consistently.

 

[henchman21]

Girard is great at getting the puck out of the zone... he's pretty bad at creating chances offensively though. That part of his game may come around one day, but right now he's pretty limited in his offensive impact.

 

[Goulet17]

When has Girard ever consistently played on a level that would be able to replace Barrie (or any other 50 point, positive possession play who can eat up 23 minutes a night, since you’re so sensitive about Barrie)? He’s had stretches and flashes, but all he is right now is potential, like Makar. Potential doesn’t help the team win right now. It especially doesn’t help see them through injuries.

The team can’t be both a contender and overly reliant on youth finding their way in time. You’re a contender once the youth has found its way and is producing and contributing at a high level consistently.

So maybe the reality is that the team is not a contender and will not legitimately become one notwithstanding any splashy trade this season?

Too many holes and weaknesses still.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

When has Girard ever consistently played on a level that would be able to replace Barrie (or any other 50 point, positive possession play who can eat up 23 minutes a night, since you’re so sensitive about Barrie)? He’s had stretches and flashes, but all he is right now is potential, like Makar. Potential doesn’t help the team win right now. It especially doesn’t help see them through injuries.

The team can’t be both a contender and overly reliant on youth finding their way in time. You’re a contender once the youth has found its way and is producing and contributing at a high level consistently.

I'm not sensitive about Barrie. i just knew that as soon as we would hit a slump Barrie's name would come up.

I never said Girard should replace Barrie especially his 50 pts. I'm saying that when Girard was playing like he can the puck was being moved properly and the team was creating offense. Barrie's pts have been replaced by Makar SO FAR. I know this is a small sample for Makar but were we not taking about missing Barrie during this current slump? Nobody mentioned his name while we were 8-0-1.

 

[cgf]

I get what all three of you are saying and not necessarily disagreeing with it but I don't think we are missing Barrie as such. It's not a coincidence we are doing this bad when Girard is doing that poorly. If Girard was playing like he can Barrie's offensive play you guys are talking about would be covered easily between Makar and him. The other problem with this team is that no FWD is stepping up to pick up some of the slack left by the lost of Rantanen and Landy.

I hear ya, especially your point about the forwards -- though our blueline wasn't tilting the ice the way they did down the stretch last year even when we were winning -- but there's a little "if Zads just took his adderall he'd be a top of the line shutdown guy" going on here. Sure the concerns would be less if Cale & Samwise were playing their best hockey 82 nights a year, but Cale's a rookie while Samwise is still a young & inconsistent player. So there being downs, as well as ups, was pretty much guaranteed while those kids went through their growing pains this season.

...which is why you saw me first defending the position that we could absolutely use all three of Barrie / Makar / Girard and be a better team for it; before starting to bring up my desire for a stabilizing middle-pairing guy after the Barrie trade. It was never about Barrie in particular for me -- as he wasn't one of my subjective favs like Zads or Landy -- it was all about ensuring that our blueliners gave us a competitive advantage against our competition.

 

[oxenfree]

I'm not sensitive about Barrie. i just knew that as soon as we would hit a slump Barrie's name would come up.

I never said Girard should replace Barrie especially his 50 pts. I'm saying that when Girard was playing like he can the puck was being moved properly and the team was creating offense. Barrie's pts have been replaced by Makar SO FAR. I know this is a small sample for Makar but were we not taking about missing Barrie during this current slump? Nobody mentioned his name while we were 8-0-1.

People literally made a thread to talk about how much the Avs didn’t need Barrie when they were winning.

The truth is, win or lose, Barrie’s impact on the game is still missing. You can win games while the defense is struggling. It’s still a fact that the defense isn’t very productive and hasn’t been supporting the play in the o-zone all season. The difference between the first 10 games and these 5 games is that the forwards were able to make up for it somewhat. A hole is still a hole even if it’s being covered by a tarp called 8-1-1.

 

[cgf]

So maybe the reality is that the team is not a contender and will not legitimately become one notwithstanding any splashy trade this season?

Too many holes and weaknesses still.

If adding a 2nd line winger & middle-pairing guy qualifies as "too many holes & weaknesses" to even bother, then we'll never contend

 

[henchman21]

I've seen plenty of Barrie chatter since the trade and all season, but Barrie is beyond the point here. It is replacing those minutes he played and played at a high level for is just difficult to replace. When the forwards are healthy and the improved center depth with Kadri is there, it covers up some of the issues by being stronger in other areas. It doesn't mean the issues are gone though. The Avs are predictably missing impact players on the backend. It was pretty easy to see and predicted by many that this group would have some issues. We are seeing it crop up when the forwards aren't dominating. It doesn't matter who is in that role, but more that the Avs are missing that role on the team. Girard is a damn good young defensemen, but he is limited offensively and just isn't good about creating offense. Makar is a talented rookie, but the rookie part is huge. Z is an inconsistent 4/5 that really should be more of a bottom pairing guy ideally. EJ is regressing but passable top 4 still. Cole is Cole... a solid 4/5 who will make mistakes playing up. Graves is an AHL top pairing guy. To me, it is clear the Avs are missing that top pairing, offensively tilted defensemen. The Avs are betting on Makar getting there, and I think they expected the learning curve to be a bit less than it is. I'm sure he will round out fine, but in the interim... it is a big part of the struggles.

Another part of the struggles is the Avs' 3rd line and depth there. The line is listed as the 4th, but PEB is basically manning a 2nd/3rd line sort of usage (depending on where Kadri is), and that is just way over his head right now. Compher/Jost/Kamenev are just not good enough #3Cs to allow PEB to slot where he should... which leaves 2 lines simply over matched and that turns to 3 when Kadri and MacK are on the same line. It is hard to consistently win when you just give away ~40% of the ice amongst forwards being outmatched. Combine that with the top line being outmatched as it is basically just MacK out there, the control of the game is just being lost.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I don’t think people appreciate the simplicity of somebody getting the puck to Nathan Mackinnon in stride. Barrie did it continuously from the back end. Landeskog and Rantanen were great at it from the neutral zone walls. Right now that’s not happening. The guy this team lives or dies with is not getting the puck on his stick when he should.

That doesn’t mean we need to bring back Barrie. Doesn’t mean we need a Landeskog clone. It means we’re currently lacking a facet of Avalanche hockey which was important to team success. If there’s no Nathan Mackinnon activity off the rush, the Avs will fail to score. Add in three major losses to our PP from last year and that’s hurting now too.

 

[Ararana]

Makar is more than talented enough to replace Barrie's distribution on the rush, it's just going to take time. We knew when they traded Barrie there was going to be a gap there while we waited for Makar to develop in the NHL. How much time I have no idea but prior to the team completely collapsing in the last week Makar was really starting to look good and confident.

The PP is a mess. Those guys look like they're playing with zero confidence right now.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I actually dont think Barrie would have a huge impact on things right now. I thought Makar had gotten off to a pretty rough start and I was vocal about that while the main boards were gushing over him.



But I think he has gotten significantly better the last 2 weeks to the point where to me he has clearly been our 2nd best player behind only Mack. He creates a tonne of space for other when he has the puck, he's getting more confident shooting and in general. He still has some bobbles with the puck at times but I've felt his defensive game has cleaned up a nice bit also.


The one thing Barrie had over Makar so far was his ability to play his game regardless of his partner while Makar has struggled a bit with Graves and especially Zadorov which kind of limits our coaching staffs ability to ge creative with our D pairings when we need something from them.

 

[lonelybadger]

The avs should trade for Barrie back...his value is at an all time low!

 

[AllAboutAvs]

We all knew there would be adjustment with Barrie gone. Makar is slowing coming around. I just think the "hole" you guys are seeing right now is exaggerated by the lost of Miko and Landy and by Girard struggling so much. Any team losing 2 of their top-3 producers will have trouble winning games. Teams surviving that kind of lost would be because other players are stepping up. This is not something that is happening right now with this team.

 

[Balthazar]

Barrie would be a mess as much as anyone else with the current team. Girard is far more reliable and he's a mess too.

There's something in hockey about forwards providing support for the D and they aren't doing it. How many times do we have to see the defense getting pressured and they have no one to give the puck to? Then they turn the puck over and we all yell at them but ultimately that's on the forwards.

During the last 3 GDT I've read people saying that: Girard was the worst dman, EJ was the worst dman, Cole was the worst dman, Graves was the worst dman, Z was the worst dman and Makar was the worst dman.

All our D is getting hammered and they all look bad. Barrie of all people would look atrocious.

 

[cgf]

We all knew there would be adjustment with Barrie gone. Makar is slowing coming around. I just think the "hole" you guys are seeing right now is exaggerated by the lost of Miko and Landy and by Girard struggling so much. Any team losing 2 of their top-3 producers will have trouble winning games. Teams surviving that kind of lost would be because other players are stepping up. This is not something that is happening right now with this team.

Or was the hole being covered up by our big line & initial results? This losing streak isn't the first time that one of us has mentioned the blueline needing reinforcement

 

[CobraAcesS]

Barrie would be a mess as much as anyone else with the current team. Girard is far more reliable and he's a mess too.

There's something in hockey about forwards providing support for the D and they aren't doing it. How many times do we have to see the defense getting pressured and they have no one to give the puck to? Then they turn the puck over and we all yell at them but ultimately that's on the forwards.

During the last 3 GDT I've read people saying that: Girard was the worst dman, EJ was the worst dman, Cole was the worst dman, Graves was the worst dman, Z was the worst dman and Makar was the worst dman.

All our D is getting hammered and they all look bad. Barrie of all people would look atrocious.

When your 2nd line wingers are actually guys who were already being asked to play above their heads. What the hell else do we expect?

I'd say the PEB line, MacK, Kadri, and maybe Don are the only players not being out matched every shift. Which is probably why Bedsy's first instinct was to put them together.


I don't know how to look up usage, but I also feel like MacK isn't on the ice with Makar very often at 5v5. Or at least often enough. Plenty of power play time, but just from the eye test it seems like Sam and EJ are out there with whatever the top line is at the time. Neither G or EJ are creating much.

Might be time to let Makar try the left side next to EJ, and make damn sure they are out there with MacK every time. I might be off on that observation though.

 

[Balthazar]

When your 2nd line wingers are actually guys who were already being asked to play above their heads. What the hell else do we expect?

I know that the forwards feel the pressure to chip in offensively which is why they cheat on helping the defense but if they were to play better defensive hockey they probably would help the transition and ultimately it would lead to more goals. Right now it's a big mess with players trying to do what they can't do while forgetting what they are good at.

As for your other point, we can't really have Makar on the left side since he's one of the only 2 righties we have on the team.