2019-20 Minor League Thread - Rampage/Oilers

[go comets]

Maybe the Blues could partner with a Texas businessman and start a new franchise in San Antonio. The building is nice, they have a hockey history there.....screw the Wolves. No matter what, the Blues are probably fudged for next year so they need to look long term. Luckily they don't have a ton of top prospects to get shuffled around.

You have to have an AHL franchise.. you just can't start a new team. Doesn't work that way...... That is exactly why Vegas bought the San Antonio franchise.....

 

[STL fan in MN]

You have to have an AHL franchise.. you just can't start a new team. Doesn't work that way...... That is exactly why Vegas bought the San Antonio franchise.....

Yep.

And if the Spurs wanted hockey in their building they had that. And just it. Doubtful they’d want a hockey team someone else owned play there but not want a hockey they themselves owned play there.

 

[ezcreepin]

I'm sure there are out clauses. Lets say they are losing money, just because you have a contract to be affiliated with them, doesn't mean you can force them to remain in business.

My understanding is that the contracts are signed to keep things like this from happening. If the Spurs wanted to sell off their team, they could do so, but the contract they've signed with the Blues remains for the entire duration. This is of course not accounting for if they Blues have released any information on out clauses, but I have to imagine that they would not have written that in the contract just based on how the Rivermen and Wolves situations played out. I just can't believe this bs happened.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

My understanding is that the contracts are signed to keep things like this from happening. If the Spurs wanted to sell off their team, they could do so, but the contract they've signed with the Blues remains for the entire duration. This is of course not accounting for if they Blues have released any information on out clauses, but I have to imagine that they would not have written that in the contract just based on how the Rivermen and Wolves situations played out. I just can't believe this bs happened.

If we were allowed the 20-21 season to get a plan together, it'd be much more reasonable, but now we're basically forced to go back to Chicago unless a miracle happens, and that's a situation that isn't going to be good.

 

[Beauterham]

This is terrible news. Not only for us, but mostly for the Rampage' fans.

This is the 2nd time Vegas ***ks us over, I hope the league is willing to give us some leeway due to this. Teaming up with the Wolves in their current form is a no-go to me. I'm wondering, is an AHL-team REQUIRED to be affiliated to an NHL team? If so, maybe the Blues will have some leverage: let us buy your team, keep it in Chicago, keep the name, etc. Just get rid of the current owner? Because the Blues aren't going to just "give the current ownership some Calder Cups".




This could also have consequences for our unsigned prospects. If we're not sure we have an AHL-team next year or we have to sprinkle our players over other AHL-teams we might opt not to sign Tyler Tucker as we don't have a team for him to play anyway. And Scott Perunovich might rather play another season for Minnesota-Duluth. Maybe let Nikita Alenxandrov play an overage season on the QMJHL? Not even talking about current Blues players in SA who are RFA after this season or UFA hoping for a new contract.

 

[simon IC]

This is terrible news. Not only for us, but mostly for the Rampage' fans.

This is the 2nd time Vegas ***ks us over, I hope the league is willing to give us some leeway due to this. Teaming up with the Wolves in their current form is a no-go to me. I'm wondering, is an AHL-team REQUIRED to be affiliated to an NHL team? If so, maybe the Blues will have some leverage: let us buy your team, keep it in Chicago, keep the name, etc. Just get rid of the current owner? Because the Blues aren't going to just "give the current ownership some Calder Cups".




This could also have consequences for our unsigned prospects. If we're not sure we have an AHL-team next year or we have to sprinkle our players over other AHL-teams we might opt not to sign Tyler Tucker as we don't have a team for him to play anyway. And Scott Perunovich might rather play another season for Minnesota-Duluth. Maybe let Nikita Alenxandrov play an overage season on the QMJHL? Not even talking about current Blues players in SA who are RFA after this season or UFA hoping for a new contract.

I instantly thought about Perunovich. Could this affect his decision to test free agency?

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

My understanding is that the contracts are signed to keep things like this from happening. If the Spurs wanted to sell off their team, they could do so, but the contract they've signed with the Blues remains for the entire duration. This is of course not accounting for if they Blues have released any information on out clauses, but I have to imagine that they would not have written that in the contract just based on how the Rivermen and Wolves situations played out. I just can't believe this bs happened.

If the Blues fought it, I wonder if they could force Vegas to honor its contract, because purchasing a team should come along with honoring all existing debts and liabilities. In that scenario, the Blues simply play their minor league hockey in Vegas for 4 years, and Vegas stays in Chicago. That’s the best case scenario at this point, imo.

But long term, our approach to the AHL doesn’t seem tenable. We sold the Rivermen to Vancouver, who had also just been run out of town in Chicago, because we didn’t want to *own* a franchise anymore: we wanted to partner with a corporate group who would basically own and pay for the team but leave most of the hockey ops stuff to us. Enter Chicago, who sucked, and San Antonio, which was perfect but obviously not sustainable. Barring some mass shift of affiliations over the summer, the Blues are going to have two options:

1. Go to Chicago again and deal with all of their BS, and probably get run out of town again in a few years (I.e. continue biting the bullet on uncertainty and instability), or
2. Bite the bullet, realize there is no perfect fit for us out there, and buy a damn franchise.

AFAIK, option 2 isn’t even an option: the AHL isn’t going to allow the Wolves to go away (too much revenue), and they can’t play next year without an affiliate. I also doubt we could stand up an entire AHL franchise in 9 months, including AHL approval, business ops and hockey ops.

And for the record, I think having an affiliate in CHI is actually pretty ideal: it’s a good selling point for free agents and prospects to play in a big hockey market with lots of stuff to do. I just wish that ownership group wasn’t so incredibly terrible to deal with.

 

[JMCx4]

Kansas City? Been there, failed that, no chance again, especially with no available franchise to move there. St. Charles? Cost of upgrading Family Arena to AHL standards is prohibitive for St. Charles County & its taxpayers, and Blues have been clearly unwilling to invest such funds for an affiliate in the past. Plus the previously mentioned matter of no available AHL franchise to move. Back to Peoria? Burned that bridge with the sale of the last AHL franchise to Vancouver ... and ditto the available franchise theme.

See bold text responses above.

 

[Renard]

This is confusing. Vega is free to walk away from their affiliation with Chicago and free to purchase the Rampage, despite it's affiliation with St Louis? Doesn't the Rampage organization have a long-term lease on it's building in San Antonio? What happens to that?

What about the AHL? Can the purchaser of a team move a franchise just like that?

 

[JMCx4]

This is confusing. Vega is free to walk away from their affiliation with Chicago and free to purchase the Rampage, despite it's affiliation with St Louis? Doesn't the Rampage organization have a long-term lease on it's building in San Antonio? What happens to that?

What about the AHL? Can the purchaser of a team move a franchise just like that?

Yes ... "Rampage organization" is Spurs Sports & Entertainment, who manage ops @ AT&T Center and also made the sale of the AHL franchise ... Done ... League approval is a formality ... Yes.

 

[go comets]

This is confusing. Vega is free to walk away from their affiliation with Chicago and free to purchase the Rampage, despite it's affiliation with St Louis? Doesn't the Rampage organization have a long-term lease on it's building in San Antonio? What happens to that?

What about the AHL? Can the purchaser of a team move a franchise just like that?

Unfortunately these. Contracts at the AHL level are not worth the paper they are printed on.... There may be more moves to come, no one is sure... Calgary/ Stockton may play in to this....just gotta wait and see how it plays out. Chicago was already fully aware of Vegas leaving....

 

[JMCx4]

IMO, the widespread surprise & confusion among Blues fans (and many other NHL hockey fans) over this affiliate sale is apparently a reflection of the Blues ownership's failure to grasp the risks vs. rewards of refusing to own their AHL affiliate. Perhaps dumping the salaries of a half-dozen VPs and hiring one or two smart hockey business people to focus on affiliate strategies would finally be in order for the organization. Just spitballin' here.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

IMO, the widespread surprise & confusion among Blues fans (and many other NHL hockey fans) over this affiliate sale is apparently a reflection of the Blues ownership's failure to grasp the risks vs. rewards of refusing to own their AHL affiliate. Perhaps dumping the salaries of a half-dozen VPs and hiring one or two smart hockey business people to focus on affiliate strategies would finally be in order for the organization. Just spitballin' here.

I agree. They keep trying to find a perfect situation where they don’t invest anything but reap all of the rewards is just not worth the long-term stability you lose. Kevin McDonald - who was GM of both Peoria and San Antonio - lives in freaking Boston. How does that work?

 

[JMCx4]

... Kevin McDonald - who was GM of both Peoria and San Antonio - lives in freaking Boston. How does that work?

Apparently very well ... for him ...

 

[Coach Nate]

I'm getting really GD tired of saying goodbye to these forums.

At least this time it's for good.

 

[Renard]

I'm getting really GD tired of saying goodbye to these forums.

At least this time it's for good.

Nate, say it ain't so.

Anyway, thanks for your input over the years.

 

[Renard]

Yes ... "Rampage organization" is Spurs Sports & Entertainment, who manage ops @ AT&T Center and also made the sale of the AHL franchise ... Done ... League approval is a formality ... Yes.

.

I still don't get it. Does the new Vegas affiliate intend to stay in San Antonio? Who owns the building where the Rampage previously played? Does Spurs Sports & Entertainment have a lease for a certain number of nights for the year? Who pays the lease payments going forward?


This is interesting as well as disturbing to me. I realize this is on a smaller scale, but the attempt to move the Blues franchise out of St. Louis caused huge legal problems.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

IMO, the widespread surprise & confusion among Blues fans (and many other NHL hockey fans) over this affiliate sale is apparently a reflection of the Blues ownership's failure to grasp the risks vs. rewards of refusing to own their AHL affiliate. Perhaps dumping the salaries of a half-dozen VPs and hiring one or two smart hockey business people to focus on affiliate strategies would finally be in order for the organization. Just spitballin' here.

My impression is that the team lost a lot of money with Peoria, and has been running the AHL endeavor on the cheap ever since. Initially, this was under the Checketts regime (which was a time the team wasn’t nearly so profitable). Winning a Cup and hosting All-Star game type events is probably pretty healthy for the bottom line.

We are assuming the Blues were caught by surprise here. Maybe they were. More likely they were offered the opportunity to buy the team from the Spurs and passed or were outbid. (I confess, I didn’t know who owned the team.)

But it’s a pretty weird look to go back to Chicago after the ownership there shat on the Blues on the way out the door. I don’t think either side would want that relationship.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I'm getting really GD tired of saying goodbye to these forums.

At least this time it's for good.

You’ve been a valued contributor. I am disappointed you were traded away!

 

[mike1320]

My impression is that the team lost a lot of money with Peoria, and has been running the AHL endeavor on the cheap ever since. Initially, this was under the Checketts regime (which was a time the team wasn’t nearly so profitable). Winning a Cup and hosting All-Star game type events is probably pretty healthy for the bottom line.

We are assuming the Blues were caught by surprise here. Maybe they were. More likely they were offered the opportunity to buy the team from the Spurs and passed or were outbid. (I confess, I didn’t know who owned the team.)

But it’s a pretty weird look to go back to Chicago after the ownership there shat on the Blues on the way out the door. I don’t think either side would want that relationship.

I'm wondering how well a team would draw nowadays over in St. Charles considering that there is a waiting list for season tickets, home games always sell out, and ticket prices have gone up significantly. I'd personally love to see a minor league team back in our area.

 

[SwivelSchwartz]

I'm getting really GD tired of saying goodbye to these forums.

At least this time it's for good.

Instantly thought of you when I heard the news. Sorry about your loss, and we hope to still see you around here.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

I'm getting really GD tired of saying goodbye to these forums.

At least this time it's for good.

You don’t have to leave, we’ve got toasted ravs and gooey butter cake.

 

[Blueston]

Unfortunately these. Contracts at the AHL level are not worth the paper they are printed on.... There may be more moves to come, no one is sure... Calgary/ Stockton may play in to this....just gotta wait and see how it plays out. Chicago was already fully aware of Vegas leaving....

I think this is an oversimplification. The contract between Blues and Spurs (who owned Rampage) would absolutely govern the relationship. Presumably there was a termination right in the contract, at least in the event of a sale of Rampage. Many contracts in all lines of business have similar out provisions, especially upon sale. So if there aren't any teams with openings right now (other than Wolves), Blues need to look at whether they want to buy another team like Vegas did.

 

[Blueston]

You don’t have to leave, we’ve got toasted ravs and gooey butter cake.

Yeah, but no puffy tacos.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I think this is an oversimplification. The contract between Blues and Spurs (who owned Rampage) would absolutely govern the relationship. Presumably there was a termination right in the contract, at least in the event of a sale of Rampage. Many contracts in all lines of business have similar out provisions, especially upon sale. So if there aren't any teams with openings right now (other than Wolves), Blues need to look at whether they want to buy another team like Vegas did.

Unfortunately, the most available team just got sold from underneath them.