2019-20 Minor League Thread - Rampage/Oilers

[Blueston]

IMO, the widespread surprise & confusion among Blues fans (and many other NHL hockey fans) over this affiliate sale is apparently a reflection of the Blues ownership's failure to grasp the risks vs. rewards of refusing to own their AHL affiliate. Perhaps dumping the salaries of a half-dozen VPs and hiring one or two smart hockey business people to focus on affiliate strategies would finally be in order for the organization. Just spitballin' here.

Rampage reportedly lost couple million dollars a year. Running minor league team in larger city seems like a tough go unless you are in orbit of the parent team. You draw 6,000 to 18,000 arena in market where you are only niche player. Same reason why KC seems like not great business idea. Somewhere fairly close but smaller would make more sense. Is there a suitable arena in Springfield?

 

[bleedblue1223]

To place an AHL club in another city, would require us to purchase an AHL club and move it. The chances of that happening are minuscule. There is nothing that would indicate us interested in owning an AHL club, otherwise, we probably would've heard of interest in purchasing San Antonio.

 

[Renard]

I did two minutes of research. The AT&T Center is owner by Bexar County. The building construction costs were paid by public funds, the proceeds of bonds issued by the County and sold to the public.

The building was constructed to host basketball and hockey. The Spurs don't own the building, but they do (or did) own the Rampage franchise. The Spurs have a lease on the AT&T Center. AT&T paid for the naming rights.

 

[Blueston]

I did two minutes of research. The AT&T Center is owner by Bexar County. The building construction costs were paid by public funds, the proceeds of bonds issued by the County and sold to the public.

The building was constructed to host basketball and hockey. The Spurs don't own the building, but they do (or did) own the Rampage franchise. The Spurs have a lease on the AT&T Center. AT&T paid for the naming rights.

It is typical in situation like this that city or county own the building and the lead tenant has a master lease and runs the building. They would share certain costs and revenues and the team gets local tax (property tax primarily in Texas) savings.

 

[Renard]

It is typical in situation like this that city or county own the building and the lead tenant has a master lease and runs the building. They would share certain costs and revenues and the team gets local tax (property tax primarily in Texas) savings.

That's our situation here in St. Louis, eh?

 

[STL fan in MN]

.

I still don't get it. Does the new Vegas affiliate intend to stay in San Antonio? Who owns the building where the Rampage previously played? Does Spurs Sports & Entertainment have a lease for a certain number of nights for the year? Who pays the lease payments going forward?


This is interesting as well as disturbing to me. I realize this is on a smaller scale, but the attempt to move the Blues franchise out of St. Louis caused huge legal problems.

No, Vegas will be moving the franchise to Vegas/Henderson NV starting next season.

The Spurs lease the arena. No idea if there was any sort of agreement between the Spurs and county (who owns the arena) on if there would be any payment due if they sold the Rampage but if there was, clearly that detail was figured out as part of the sale to the Knights.

As for your last reference, are you referring to when the guy wanted to move the Blues to Saskatoon? This is nothing like that. And the AHL has already approved the move. Done deal. The NHL never agreed to allow the Blues to move to Saskatoon. Very different circumstances.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I wonder if when Vegas and the Spurs started negotiating the sale of the Rampage if the Spurs reached out to the Blues to see if they wanted to buy them. I would think that they would as that could lead to a bidding war and an increased sales price but I’m just guessing here.

And if Army was aware of Vegas trying to buy the Rampage (I’d think it was highly likely he knew and certainly wasn’t blindsided yesterday), I wonder if he tried to talk Stillman into buying the Rampage.

Clearly the end result was that either Stillman said no to trying to buy the Rampage or they tried and Vegas simply won the bidding war (which wouldn’t be surprising since their owner, Bill Foley, is a billionaire).

Bottom line is, this sucks! Hopefully the Blues can pull a rabbit out of a hat and end up with a good affiliation starting next season but unfortunately, the most likely result is the Blues and Wolves being stuck with each other again. Ugh.

 

[Renard]

No, Vegas will be moving the franchise to Vegas/Henderson NV starting next season.

The Spurs lease the arena. No idea if there was any sort of agreement between the Spurs and county (who owns the arena) on if there would be any payment due if they sold the Rampage but if there was, clearly that detail was figured out as part of the sale to the Knights.

As for your last reference, are you referring to when the guy wanted to move the Blues to Saskatoon? This is nothing like that. And the AHL has already approved the move. Done deal. The NHL never agreed to allow the Blues to move to Saskatoon. Very different circumstances.

The NHL didn't allow the Blues to move because Saskatoon looked too small to support the team.

The AHL has an 18 year franchise in one of the largest cities in the United States ( no. 7 actually), playing in a great building and with no hockey competition. The franchise is now going to Vegas, with attendance competition from it's own parent team?

How is that good for the AHL?

 

[JMCx4]

I still don't get it. Does the new Vegas affiliate intend to stay in San Antonio? Who owns the building where the Rampage previously played? Does Spurs Sports & Entertainment have a lease for a certain number of nights for the year? Who pays the lease payments going forward? ...

(1) VGK has publicly indicated they intend to move the AHL franchise they are buying (which is a transferrable asset related to but separate from the team now playing in San Antonio) to the Las Vegas, Nevada area.
(2) Bexar County, TX (and by extension their taxpayers) own the AT&T Center in San Antonio.
(3) Spurs Sports & Entertainment L.L.C. (SS&E) operates the AT&T Center under contract to Bexar County, with responsibilities that presumably include securing leases & filling calendar dates in the arena operation (typical duties of an arena management company). I don't know the details of their contractual agreement with Brexar County, but those details could be matters of public record for those sufficiently curious to seek them out.
(4) Per (3) above, it is the responsibility of SS&E to find one or more new or existing lessees to fill the dates to be vacated by the AHL franchise departure to the extent required by their arena management contract. Or whatever other options SS&E have available to exercise in accordance with their contract.

ETA: I see you & others answered your questions already. So never mind.

 

[STL fan in MN]

The NHL didn't allow the Blues to move because Saskatoon looked too small to support the team.

The AHL has an 18 year franchise in one of the largest cities in the United States ( no. 7 actually), playing in a great building and with no hockey competition. The franchise is now going to Vegas, with attendance competition from it's own parent team?

How is that good for the AHL?

You make a decent point regarding San Antonio vs Henderson NV but there’s a big difference between having enough support to fill an 18-20k building at pretty high ticket prices vs getting 5-8k fans to show up at much lower prices for AHL games.

Similar to when the Wild moved their affiliate from Houston to Des Moines. Houston is the bigger market but Des Moines is big enough to support an AHL team and is much closer to the Twin Cities. Generally, the AHL will let teams do what they want, especially NHL teams that own their AHL teams as generally, they’re fine losing a little money for the convenience of having total control and being able to pick a location that suits the parent NHL team well.

 

[bluebird enthusiast]

Rampage reportedly lost couple million dollars a year. Running minor league team in larger city seems like a tough go unless you are in orbit of the parent team. You draw 6,000 to 18,000 arena in market where you are only niche player. Same reason why KC seems like not great business idea. Somewhere fairly close but smaller would make more sense. Is there a suitable arena in Springfield?

I play men's league in the Springfield rink from time to time. It would need a significant facelift or a completely new stadium to attract an AHL team. Ice is a crapshoot, seating is limited (max attendance in the South Rink doesn't even break 6,000 iirc), hockey director is clueless. We like our Springfield Cardinals, though. Springfield likes hockey enough to get a day with the Stanley Cup and has a good record with the other minor league in town, but I'm not sure it likes hockey enough to build another arena.

Edit: I forgot to mention MSU's basketball stadium as a possible site. While it's true the JQH arena is a stone's throw away from Jordan Valley and a marked improvement in terms of a venue (11k attendance, nice concourse, fairly modern stadium), I'm not convinced the university would be willing to lease it to a professional team.

 

[JMCx4]

The NHL didn't allow the Blues to move because Saskatoon looked too small to support the team.

The AHL has an 18 year franchise in one of the largest cities in the United States ( no. 7 actually), playing in a great building and with no hockey competition. The franchise is now going to Vegas, with attendance competition from it's own parent team?

How is that good for the AHL?

You (and we) will have to wait for the AHL to make an official statement regarding this sales agreement to get an answer to your last question above. I'm confident their ultimate public statement will do little to assuage the concerns of the majority of hockey fans who feel they are stakeholders in this matter.

 

[JMCx4]

Yeah, but no puffy tacos.

Hundreds of Yelp reviewers would disagree.

 

[Blueston]

Hundreds of Yelp reviewers would disagree.

Yeah, not sure that is really gonna cut it. Puffy Tacos: A San Antonio Twist on a Tex-Mex Tradition

 

[Jessica]

I did two minutes of research. The AT&T Center is owner by Bexar County. The building construction costs were paid by public funds, the proceeds of bonds issued by the County and sold to the public.

The building was constructed to host basketball and hockey. The Spurs don't own the building, but they do (or did) own the Rampage franchise. The Spurs have a lease on the AT&T Center. AT&T paid for the naming rights.

It also host the stock show and rodeo, that is why the teams has always gone away in February.

 

[JMCx4]

I'm wondering how well a team would draw nowadays over in St. Charles considering that there is a waiting list for season tickets, home games always sell out, and ticket prices have gone up significantly. I'd personally love to see a minor league team back in our area.

If priced-out St. Louis area Blues fans at large were inclined to seek alternative live hockey watching options played by adults, I'd expect to see much larger crowds (or anything even resembling a crowd) at the Lindenwood University men's & women's games played @ Centene Community Ice Center. Instead, those crowds in their mostly new team gear only flock through the CCIC doors for Blues training camp sessions & team practices & Blues alumni events. St. Louis hockey = Blues, with little affection for any other form unless someone's daughter or son is playing.

 

[Coach Nate]

Turn Off The Lights, The Rampage Are No More

 

[mike1320]

If priced-out St. Louis area Blues fans at large were inclined to seek alternative live hockey watching options played by adults, I'd expect to see much larger crowds (or anything even resembling a crowd) at the Lindenwood University men's & women's games played @ Centene Community Ice Center. Instead, those crowds in their mostly new team gear only flock through the CCIC doors for Blues training camp sessions & team practices & Blues alumni events. St. Louis hockey = Blues, with little affection for any other form unless someone's daughter or son is playing.

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. If Lindenwood was a feeder team and you could watch future Blues play on the cheap I bet it would draw interest.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Don Levin knows what he wants from next Wolves affiliation

Comments like this from the Chicago ownership, and the way they’ve burned through affiliations (5 different teams in the last decade) make me think the Blues and Wolves will not be a good match all of a sudden. But what alternative is there?

 

[JMCx4]

I think that's kind of an apples to oranges comparison. If Lindenwood was a feeder team and you could watch future Blues play on the cheap I bet it would draw interest.

Certainly different varieties of apples, anyway. But I disagree with the premise of your bolded statement above, based on my 50+ years of observation of the hockey fan base in St. Louis. And a very large number of Blues fans who either can't or aren't willing to pay current ticket prices are simply spending their money on watching hockey at home or on their smart devices. But I'd sure support an AHL team here, for however long they'd last.

 

[Bluesfan54]

Don Levin knows what he wants from next Wolves affiliation

Comments like this from the Chicago ownership, and the way they’ve burned through affiliations (5 different teams in the last decade) make me think the Blues and Wolves will not be a good match all of a sudden. But what alternative is there?

So what options do the Wolves have for next year? Without an NHL affiliate, can they even be in the AHL? I thought someone said teams cannot be independent, or is that just a preference rather than a requirement?

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

So what options do the Wolves have for next year? Without an NHL affiliate, can they even be in the AHL? I thought someone said teams cannot be independent, or is that just a preference rather than a requirement?

I don’t know either. Are the two groups basically forced to work together? I’m sure that will be swell.

 

[mike1320]

Certainly different varieties of apples, anyway. But I disagree with the premise of your bolded statement above, based on my 50+ years of observation of the hockey fan base in St. Louis. And a very large number of Blues fans who either can't or aren't willing to pay current ticket prices are simply spending their money on watching hockey at home or on their smart devices. But I'd sure support an AHL team here, for however long they'd last.

I've been watching for about 40 years myself, and I think there's been a huge upswing in the interest of the game over the last few years in STL. We now have a championship caliber team and a rock solid ownership group. Couple that with the fact that the Blues no longer have to compete with the NFL for winter sports attendance/dollars and you end up with sellouts and waiting lines for season tickets. If there was ever an ideal time to bring a minor league team to the area, it's right now.

 

[JMCx4]

@mike1320: All solid points. I just hope the prevailing conditions change the behavior of enough STL hockey fans to convince someone with the money & the patience for owning a minor pro franchise to take the chance.

 

[STL fan in MN]

So what options do the Wolves have for next year? Without an NHL affiliate, can they even be in the AHL? I thought someone said teams cannot be independent, or is that just a preference rather than a requirement?

It’s a requirement...but it’s also a moot point.

Next season there’s going to be 31 NHL teams and 31 AHL teams. The Wolves will eventually be affiliated with some NHL team, even if they’re more or less forced to affiliate with each other as they’d be each other’s only option.

Right now, that unlucky NHL team is most likely be the Blues...but hopefully they can find a better situation but that would then screw over another NHL team, who would then likely have to affiliate with the Wolves.