2018 Free Agent and Trade Discussion Thread: The Dogs Days are over

[LeafChief]

Marleau cant be bought out

Round and round we go.

 

[ACC1224]

I have no idea. I don't know what they agreed to at the beginning of the contract, they certainly set it up a bit like Martin's deal. We pay a lot up front and in signing bonuses. Would any of us be *shocked* if we paid the signing bonus July 1st and Marleau's 6.25M cap hit and 1.5M salary found themselves elsewhere? Or if Marleau developed an allergy to his hair or hockey equipment?

I for one would be shocked.

 

[613Leafer]

It'd be interesting to explore a trade similar to the Grabner trade, except preferably for a pick or picks coming back. Send a package of our tertiary prospects to another team that has less depth and could give these guys more of a shot.

Guys like Nielsen, Pickard, Leivo, Marincin, etc. Make some room on the Marlies for a guy like Durzi, avoid losing guys to waivers, etc.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

We're also too weak on the LW to be losing Marleau. He's a great player who scored 4 goals in 7 games in the playoffs for us last year, with 27 regular season goals. I wouldn't worry about his age.

 

[Boutette]

We're also too weak on the LW to be losing Marleau. He's a great player who scored 4 goals in 7 games in the playoffs for us last year, with 27 regular season goals. I wouldn't worry about his age.

Hyman (more ES points than Marleau last year), Johnsson, Kapanen, Leivo, Grunstrom. Each of which could put up Marleau's production given the opportunity. Fact is, we're only weak on LW (all middle sixers) in comparison to how strong we are on RW (2 1st liners, 2 middle sixers) and C (3 1st liners, 1 4th liner).

 

[SeaOfBlue]

It'd be interesting to explore a trade similar to the Grabner trade, except preferably for a pick or picks coming back. Send a package of our tertiary prospects to another team that has less depth and could give these guys more of a shot.

Guys like Nielsen, Pickard, Leivo, Marincin, etc. Make some room on the Marlies for a guy like Durzi, avoid losing guys to waivers, etc.

At this point, Leivo is a top 9 guy on the Leafs. Unless someone seriously overpays, or he seriously sucks, he's not just "depth". Marincin too is very important for the Marlies. He could be Liljegren's partner, and if he passes waivers he'd easily be a rock for Liljegren next year.

Nielsen and two of McElhinney, Pickard or Sparks are fine. We'll lose a goalie or two on waivers, and we do not need 8 SPC's on the Marlies defense. Maybe that is something the Leafs considering doing at some point. Although the Leafs do not need to risk anyone besides AHL vets (Marincin, Holl, Cracknell, Greening, Loverde) on waivers (on top of the goalies), and besides the goalies and maybe Marincin, I doubt anyone gets considered for a claim.

Essentially besides having a few too many AHL defensemen + NHL goalies and not having Durzi or Hollowell in the AHL next year (which really is not that devastating IMO), there is nothing to be concerned about. Gauthier, Carrick, Ennis, and Leivo do not even need to go on waivers if the Leafs do not want them to go on waivers. Only way that changes is if a Marlie impresses enough, and that is very unlikely.

 

[Dangles McGavin]

Hyman (more ES points than Marleau last year), Johnsson, Kapanen, Leivo, Grunstrom. Each of which could put up Marleau's production given the opportunity. Fact is, we're only weak on LW (all middle sixers) in comparison to how strong we are on RW (2 1st liners, 2 middle sixers) and C (3 1st liners, 1 4th liner).

Suggesting that any of Johnsson, Kapanen, Leivo, or Grustom could put up 27 goals seems very far-fetched at this point. I really like these players, but they're all essentially rookies.

Hyman undoubtedly benefitted massively from playing with Matthews, so the "more ES points" fact is a bit misleading. And don't get me wrong, I love what Hyman brings to the team.

Point is, I don't believe we don't have anybody who can replace Marleau right now. I have hopes that Johnsson can in the future, but this season I'd say it's definitely a stretch. Next season, who knows.

 

[Boutette]

Suggesting that any of Johnsson, Kapanen, Leivo, or Grustom could put up 27 goals seems very far-fetched at this point. I really like these players, but they're all essentially rookies.

Hyman undoubtedly benefitted massively from playing with Matthews, so the "more ES points" fact is a bit misleading. And don't get me wrong, I love what Hyman brings to the team.

Point is, I don't believe we don't have anybody who can replace Marleau right now. I have hopes that Johnsson can in the future, but this season I'd say it's definitely a stretch. Next season, who knows.

Maybe not 27 goals? You do realize that when Marleau was shooting at a net with an actual goalie in it, he managed a whole 22 over 82 games. Kapanen, for example, scored at a 15 goal ES pace on the 4th line generating his offence on his own. Marleau had Kadri and Marner propping his numbers up (again, not to mention all those empty nets - with his speed?). each of the players I mentioned are capable of 40+ point rookie seasons if they got a chance to play with linemates of Marleau's linemates calibre and opportunity (for instance, imagine Kapanen on the ice in an opposing team's empty net situation game in game out). Yes, Marleau is a future hall of famer, but we're getting him at the end of his career. He's not bad but he's not any more a first liner than the kids are 4th liners. And his cap hit is more than all of them put together.

 

[ACC1224]

We're also too weak on the LW to be losing Marleau. He's a great player who scored 4 goals in 7 games in the playoffs for us last year, with 27 regular season goals. I wouldn't worry about his age.

Agreed and his contract dictates he's in the lineup for two more seasons.
Not something to worry about.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

It'd be interesting to explore a trade similar to the Grabner trade, except preferably for a pick or picks coming back. Send a package of our tertiary prospects to another team that has less depth and could give these guys more of a shot.

Guys like Nielsen, Pickard, Leivo, Marincin, etc. Make some room on the Marlies for a guy like Durzi, avoid losing guys to waivers, etc.

Grabner had a backloaded contract. He had a 3M cap hit but was owed 5M in real dollars in the final year of his deal when the Leafs acquired him.

Not many players have their contracts backloaded let alone that dramatically.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Marleau cant be bought out

Marleau can be bought out, it just does the team no good because he's a 35+ contract the cap hit remains the same as it was.

However that brings up and interesting theory that I'd never thought of before that could benefit 4 different parties. Leafs pay his bonus on July 1st, then trade him to Arizona along with a 2nd/3rd for essentially nothing. Arizona then buys him out(which because of Marleau'e NMC he wouldn't have to go on waivers first so no risk of the plan being ruined) which costs them in actual money 2/3 of the remaining contract(1.25 million) over 2 years, so they pay $416,666.67 for 2 years to get a pick and have a cap hit of 6.25 million on the books to help get to the floor. Then Marleau signs a 1 year 2 million dollar contract with San Jose. The only logistical thing that would have to happen is the Coyotes would have to have an arbitration case to open up the 2nd buyout window to use post July 1st.

all 4 parties benefit

1. Coyotes are paying $833k over 2 years to get a 6.25 cap hit towards hitting the floor and getting a pick, they're happy
2. Leafs paying a pick and 3 million(who cares?) to eliminate the cap hit if necessary to retain other talent, they're happy
3. Marleau gets paid over 1.5 million more than the would have been paid by just playing out the contract, and he gets to return to San Jose to finish his career, and keeps his streak intact if it's still going after this year, he's happy
4. San Jose gets Marleau for a cheaper price which they wouldn't have been able to get by just trading for him if they retain Karlsson. They're happy

Now I'm not saying this is the plan or even likely. But it is a possible alternative where everyone benefits, and we avoid the whole, LTIR garbage, or Marleau retirement that is extremely unlikely given how fit/healthy he is and the situation in Toronto.

 

[Fogelhund]

At this point, I'd seriously consider something like a Nylander for Pesce trade.

 

[Warden of the North]

At this point, I'd seriously consider something like a Nylander for Pesce trade.

We dont play meaningful hockey for over two weeks. Relax

 

[Fogelhund]

We dont play meaningful hockey for over two weeks. Relax

It's not about relaxing or not. Carolina hasn't found a suitor for Faulk as of yet, so perhaps they'd be willing to listen on Pesce. Pesce is almost exactly the D we could use and is signed for six years at 4.025 per. Obviously they'd prefer to move Faulk, but maybe it's time for planB. It helps us LT with the Cap as well as being a more balanced team. It also sends a message that if you aren't willing to fit into the team cap structure, you are gone.

 

[Warden of the North]

It's not about relaxing or not. Carolina hasn't found a suitor for Faulk as of yet, so perhaps they'd be willing to listen on Pesce. Pesce is almost exactly the D we could use and is signed for six years at 4.025 per. Obviously they'd prefer to move Faulk, but maybe it's time for planB. It helps us LT with the Cap as well as being a more balanced team. It also sends a message that if you aren't willing to fit into the team cap structure, you are gone.

Just because he hasnt signed yet doesnt mean hes not willing to fit into the cap structure.

Be prepared, because I suspect we'll be in the same boat next year too with Marner and/or Matthews. Do we trade them aswell because they miss a few pre-season games?

This just seems like something that we as Leafs fans arent used to because we quite frankly didnt have good enough players to be worried about in the past 20 years, or we just overpayed them at the slightest bit of confrontation.

 

[meefer]

Marleau can be bought out, it just does the team no good because he's a 35+ contract the cap hit remains the same as it was.

However that brings up and interesting theory that I'd never thought of before that could benefit 4 different parties. Leafs pay his bonus on July 1st, then trade him to Arizona along with a 2nd/3rd for essentially nothing. Arizona then buys him out(which because of Marleau'e NMC he wouldn't have to go on waivers first so no risk of the plan being ruined) which costs them in actual money 2/3 of the remaining contract(1.25 million) over 2 years, so they pay $416,666.67 for 2 years to get a pick and have a cap hit of 6.25 million on the books to help get to the floor. Then Marleau signs a 1 year 2 million dollar contract with San Jose. The only logistical thing that would have to happen is the Coyotes would have to have an arbitration case to open up the 2nd buyout window to use post July 1st.

all 4 parties benefit

1. Coyotes are paying $833k over 2 years to get a 6.25 cap hit towards hitting the floor and getting a pick, they're happy
2. Leafs paying a pick and 3 million(who cares?) to eliminate the cap hit if necessary to retain other talent, they're happy
3. Marleau gets paid over 1.5 million more than the would have been paid by just playing out the contract, and he gets to return to San Jose to finish his career, and keeps his streak intact if it's still going after this year, he's happy
4. San Jose gets Marleau for a cheaper price which they wouldn't have been able to get by just trading for him if they retain Karlsson. They're happy

Now I'm not saying this is the plan or even likely. But it is a possible alternative where everyone benefits, and we avoid the whole, LTIR garbage, or Marleau retirement that is extremely unlikely given how fit/healthy he is and the situation in Toronto.

I think I just met HFboard’s Machiavelli. I don’t know if what you’ve suggested is possible, but f*rg me, that took some thought. Good job!

 

[hockeynorth]

Marleau can be bought out, it just does the team no good because he's a 35+ contract the cap hit remains the same as it was.

However that brings up and interesting theory that I'd never thought of before that could benefit 4 different parties. Leafs pay his bonus on July 1st, then trade him to Arizona along with a 2nd/3rd for essentially nothing. Arizona then buys him out(which because of Marleau'e NMC he wouldn't have to go on waivers first so no risk of the plan being ruined) which costs them in actual money 2/3 of the remaining contract(1.25 million) over 2 years, so they pay $416,666.67 for 2 years to get a pick and have a cap hit of 6.25 million on the books to help get to the floor. Then Marleau signs a 1 year 2 million dollar contract with San Jose. The only logistical thing that would have to happen is the Coyotes would have to have an arbitration case to open up the 2nd buyout window to use post July 1st.

all 4 parties benefit

1. Coyotes are paying $833k over 2 years to get a 6.25 cap hit towards hitting the floor and getting a pick, they're happy
2. Leafs paying a pick and 3 million(who cares?) to eliminate the cap hit if necessary to retain other talent, they're happy
3. Marleau gets paid over 1.5 million more than the would have been paid by just playing out the contract, and he gets to return to San Jose to finish his career, and keeps his streak intact if it's still going after this year, he's happy
4. San Jose gets Marleau for a cheaper price which they wouldn't have been able to get by just trading for him if they retain Karlsson. They're happy

Now I'm not saying this is the plan or even likely. But it is a possible alternative where everyone benefits, and we avoid the whole, LTIR garbage, or Marleau retirement that is extremely unlikely given how fit/healthy he is and the situation in Toronto.

...wow

 

[Menzinger]

At this point, I'd seriously consider something like a Nylander for Pesce trade.

That’s a pretty big downgrade for the leafs

 

[Kiwi]

That’s a pretty big downgrade for the leafs

Oh yeah, a big hell no to that
Lets just wait Nylander out instead of doing something stupid

 

[Menzinger]

Oh yeah, a big hell no to that
Lets just wait Nylander out instead of doing something stupid

Not to mention even if the Leafs WANTED to trade Nylander flipping an RFA during negotiations just before the season starts seems like a great way to get a subpar return.

 

[Kiwi]

Not to mention even if the Leafs WANTED to trade Nylander flipping an RFA during negotiations just before the season starts seems like a great way to get a subpar return.

Yeah I can't imagine a lot of teams running towards that situation
I've read that article in the Athletic, the longer this goes the better for us

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Suggesting that any of Johnsson, Kapanen, Leivo, or Grustom could put up 27 goals seems very far-fetched at this point. I really like these players, but they're all essentially rookies.

Hyman undoubtedly benefitted massively from playing with Matthews, so the "more ES points" fact is a bit misleading. And don't get me wrong, I love what Hyman brings to the team.

Point is, I don't believe we don't have anybody who can replace Marleau right now. I have hopes that Johnsson can in the future, but this season I'd say it's definitely a stretch. Next season, who knows.

Nobody is suggesting dealing Marleau this season. What would be the point?

Next season though we're gonna have to fit in Matthews & Marner on new deals. After that have room for the D group will be a bigger concern then what Marleau bring whether it be bringing back Gardiner or finding someone else to slot in as a top 4 for us. Additionally, Kapanen & Johnsson are RFA's who at this point are likely to get Brown/Hyman type money.

 

[BlueForever75]

If Marleau continues to put up the type of production that he did last season, which seems to be more then possible playing with Matthews-Nylander. There is no reason at all to trade him. Its not only about the production, its about what he brings to the dressing room and relationship he has with Marner and Matthews!!! Secondly, it would not look good on the Leafs to trade someone like Marleau after he came to Toronto from a long career in SJ. Not a good look for potential other free agents.

Gardiner will be replaceable next season from players like Llijgren and Dermott. His production wont be missed offensively. Hainsey is off the books next season at another 3 million. That is 7 million freed up with those 2 players leaving. That along with abundance of cap space we have this year (13 million), is plenty to get the 3 signed. Players like Jooris, Lindholm, Ennis are another combined 3 million. There is ways to get things done.

I'm not worried at all and it wont come at the Marleau cost. I believe in management.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yeah I can't imagine a lot of teams running towards that situation
I've read that article in the Athletic, the longer this goes the better for us

Read the same article, I suspected that it was the case but the article really highlights how truthful it is. I think we'll end up getting a good contract done with Nylander, all he needs is a few pre-season games.

 

[BlueForever75]

I have a question. If the Leafs wanted to, can they circumvent the cap to fit everyone in by paying less on the first year of a contract and more on the later years where the average is still reasonable but we buy ourselves another season where Marleau's contract is off the books?

So for example:

Matthews - 1 year - 8 million, 2 year 10 million, 3-8 years at 12 million per. This would be an 8 year deal at 78 million with a 9.75 million salary hit per season.

If we work out deals for Matthews, Marner and Nylander this way it could be beneficial with them getting everyone in.

Is this possible?