2018/2019 Lineup Thread

[Novacain]

Were you one of those guys who thought the Blues were better off with Sobotka on the first line last year instead of the third? Because this is the same sort of idea, except you're doing it with with two groups of top six quality players instead of one and the guys you're moving up haven't shown the ability to produce at even at Sobotka's level. And that's assuming we're getting the 40 point version of Maroon instead of the 20 point version.

Personally, I don't see the point of putting clearly inferior players on higher lines and playing your best players fewer minutes when you can roll 3 much higher quality lines without doing that.

You can modestly expect the top three lines to play 52 minutes a game if you want them to (18 minutes for the most used line, and 17 minutes for the other two)...and you can probably stretch that even more if you want. If your position is that the Blues are a better team having guys like Barbashev and Soshnikov play closer to 15 minutes a game than 10 minutes, and about as much as you're playing someone like Steen, then I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree and see which way the Blues ultimately choose to go.

First off, just throwing good players together doesn't always result in great results. You have to try to find logical fits and plug in players with guys that make sense. When Tarasenko was with Schenn and Schwartz, he was almost a complete passenger on that line because Schwartz and Schenn dominated the puck so much. I never have been a big advocate of them on the same line because I think Tarasenko is better served leading a line then being the extra guy on it, which he clearly was there. Pairing him with Bozak, who is a strong passer and faceoff guy that could set him up on the offensive side, and Maroon who can help screen shots for him could be more beneficial then just throwing him on a top line.

Also, Maroon has never been "the 20 point version of Maroon". That guy doesn't exist. Maroon's point totals to games played.

13-14: 64 games played, 29 points
14-15: 71 games played, 34 points
15-16: 72 games played, 27 points
16-17: 81 games played, 42 points
17-18: 74 games played, 43 points.

Basically, he's been about a 40 point per 82 games played or pace player for 4 of his 5 seasons, and the one he wasn't (when he had an awful run on the Ducks only getting 11 minutes per game before a great stretch with Edmonton). As long as he's been given solid ice time, he's been a 40 point player.

Also, Maroon is better then Sobotka. Sobotka had one year were he was a legitimately good top 9 player. Maroon has had multiple. Comparing the two isn't doing Maroon justice, especially the soft version of Sobotka we had last year.

And yes, we could stretch our top 3 lines to 52 minutes a game. My question to you is "Why do that when we can be just as good of a team only playing them 48?" The more time we can keep them off the ice while still being a really good team means there is less of a chance of injury for them, and a higher chance they have something more to give us later in the season. Keep in mind, the goal with this team is no longer get in the playoffs. If we don't make the playoffs next year something went abysmally wrong now. The goal, to me, has to be the last team left in the Central and see were we get from there. And the fresher our legs are for that run, the better.

 

[Spektre]

Schwartz-Schenn-Perron
Maroon-Bozak-Tarasenko
Fabbri-O'Reilly-Barbashev
Steen-Thomas-Soshnikov

Which of those lines don't produce like a 3rd line to you? Let's also consider you could potentially bump one of Barbie or Sosh of for Kyrou as well.

There's zero chance ROR is on the 3rd line. Army didn't make the trade for ROR to see if he can produce with Barbashev. Army has talked about finding a center and a winger that have chemistry and leaving them together. He mentioned the obvious example of Schenn and Schwartz. Ideally ROR will be substantially better with Tarasenko than Stastny was. That's the game plan.

X - ROR - Tarasenko
Schwartz - Schenn - X

Those are your two dynamic lines. Now it becomes which winger plays with either line (and there will be multiple combinations tested). If Fabbri is 100% healthy and skating like the wind he's the obvious choice with ROR and Tarasenko. Army also keeps mentioning Kyrou. If Kyrou is on the roster opening night hopefully he's playing with Schwartz and Schenn. I don't think it's ideal to have Thomas playing 4th line minutes but I don't think it's a too much of a stretch to guess that will happen.

So...

Schwartz Schenn Kyrou
Fabbri ROR Tarasenko
Steen Bozak Perron
Maroon Thomas Barbashev (Soshnikov, Jaskin, Sanford, Blais, or whoever makes the roster)

 

[EastonBlues22]

First off, just throwing good players together doesn't always result in great results. You have to try to find logical fits and plug in players with guys that make sense. When Tarasenko was with Schenn and Schwartz, he was almost a complete passenger on that line because Schwartz and Schenn dominated the puck so much. I never have been a big advocate of them on the same line because I think Tarasenko is better served leading a line then being the extra guy on it, which he clearly was there. Pairing him with Bozak, who is a strong passer and faceoff guy that could set him up on the offensive side, and Maroon who can help screen shots for him could be more beneficial then just throwing him on a top line.

I agree. I'm just curious what case you would make that Barbashev and Soshnikov are the "logical fits" for their more talented counterparts than anyone else within the Blues current top 9 (or 10, if you include Thomas). There's a whole lot of room for tweaking within that top 9 to 10 guys that can be done without including those guys, and I'm not really seeing how they bring much of anything substantial to the table at all relative to the other options.

Also, Maroon has never been "the 20 point version of Maroon". That guy doesn't exist. Maroon's point totals to games played.

13-14: 64 games played, 29 points
14-15: 71 games played, 34 points
15-16: 72 games played, 27 points
16-17: 81 games played, 42 points
17-18: 74 games played, 43 points.

Basically, he's been about a 40 point per 82 games played or pace player for 4 of his 5 seasons, and the one he wasn't (when he had an awful run on the Ducks only getting 11 minutes per game before a great stretch with Edmonton). As long as he's been given solid ice time, he's been a 40 point player.

Also, Maroon is better then Sobotka. Sobotka had one year were he was a legitimately good top 9 player. Maroon has had multiple. Comparing the two isn't doing Maroon justice, especially the soft version of Sobotka we had last year.

I'm far from convinced that Maroon's production won't drop down into the 20 something point range with less talented linemates here, not to mention fewer minutes and less PP time, but if you are, that's fine. I already said he was in the mix for the top 9 and was willing to assume he'd be a 40 point contributor to that end. The ones you need to make a case for playing with the better players are Barbashev, Soshnikov, and Jaskin.

And yes, we could stretch our top 3 lines to 52 minutes a game. My question to you is "Why do that when we can be just as good of a team only playing them 48?" The more time we can keep them off the ice while still being a really good team means there is less of a chance of injury for them, and a higher chance they have something more to give us later in the season. Keep in mind, the goal with this team is no longer get in the playoffs. If we don't make the playoffs next year something went abysmally wrong now. The goal, to me, has to be the last team left in the Central and see were we get from there. And the fresher our legs are for that run, the better.

Assuming they will be just as good of a team is a pretty big assumption, no?

Generally you play your better players more than your worst players, because that is what makes your team toughest to beat any given night. You're talking about playing your worst players more at the expense of some of your better players' time. It's counter-intuitive to say that the Blues can do that without being easier to play against.

Playing 17-18 minutes a night should not be unduly taxing on your talented players (i.e. pushing them to the point of being more susceptible to injury due to fatigue), and playing them 1-2 minutes less a night is certainly no guarantee that they'll be any healthier or "fresher" come playoff time. You could just as easily say that a whole season of playing a reduced role will under-prepare (both physically and mentally) your best players for the playoffs if they need to be leaned on more heavily there.

Is one of those more likely to be true? I don't know, and in a way, that's kind of the point. The long-term costs and benefits of such roster management are tenuous, at best. There's really no telling if it will make a difference one way or the other, or how much of a difference...not even with the benefit of hindsight.

I think it boils down to this: Assuming the playoffs are a given is not something that anyone within the organization is going to be doing, and I generally don't think that they're going to be approaching this season with the sort of long view that you seem to have in mind here. I think they'll be doing their best to win any given night, and they'll accept and deal with whatever consequences come as a natural byproduct of that when they happen.

I suppose anything is possible, though. This is just my opinion.

 

[Dbrownss]

Here's my lines.

Schwartz Schenn Kyrou
Perron O'Reilly Fabbri
Maroon Bozak Tarasenko
Steen Thomas Soshnikov


Dougie keeps mentioning Kyrou too often to not think he's going to be given a long rope. If he doesn't pan out the move Steen/Perron around. I'm taking the balanced approach, all lines have a RHS to help with east/west plays

 

[simon IC]

I know it seems anathema to some, but how about trying Schenn back at RW? Do Schenn and Schwartz have to be beside each other to work their magic? Would they still be effective with a C between them?

• Schwartz-ROR-Schenn
• Maroon/Fabbri*-Bozak-Tarasenko
• Steen-Thomas-Perron
• Maroon/Fabbri*-Barbashev-Jaskin

* - Depending on Fabbri's health/effectiveness.

 

[simon IC]

 

[Novacain]

I agree. I'm just curious what case you would make that Barbashev and Soshnikov are the "logical fits" for their more talented counterparts than anyone else within the Blues current top 9 (or 10, if you include Thomas). There's a whole lot of room for tweaking within that top 9 to 10 guys that can be done without including those guys, and I'm not really seeing how they bring much of anything substantial to the table at all relative to the other options.

I think the idea is simple: You have 10 top 9 forwards, but only 2 of them are Right Wingers, but you have an absolute ton of talented young RW talents that could fill those spots pretty well. Instead of trying to force someone to their off wing, run 4 forward lines and see which (if any) of your potentially NHL ready RW's can claim that spot aggressively. Barbashev isn't a natural fit on RW, I admit, but between Barbashev, Soshnikov, Jaskin, and Kyrou we have tons of options for guys who could potentially fit a 3rd line RW role (Yes, I know Jaskin is a borderline stretch here, but that's why I assume he loses the battle to the other 3). This solution also doesn't shoe horn someone into being a 4th liner that' going to get minimal ice time for no other reason then there wasn't room. Or maybe someone gets hurt and this entire discussion is meaningless. But the room for one of Barbie, Sosh, Kyrou, or maybe even Jaskin to take the available position and run with it is right there. And the possibility of one or two of them showing they are generally good 12-13 minute a night RW's to go with an already jam packed roster is a chance I think we need to take.

I'm far from convinced that Maroon's production won't drop down into the 20 something point range with less talented linemates here, not to mention fewer minutes and less PP time, but if you are, that's fine. I already said he was in the mix for the top 9 and was willing to assume he'd be a 40 point contributor to that end. The ones you need to make a case for playing with the better players are Barbashev, Soshnikov, and Jaskin.

I think I kinda explained that part above. I just also don't see the value of getting a guy who has been a solid producer and sticking him on the 4th line getting 8 minutes a game. And I see the value of sticking Robert Thomas into that role as a negative, not a positive. If Thomas is gonna be up here (Which he will) he needs to be with experienced line mates in positions to help him grow, not playing in spare time when the vets are ready. IMO, running the 3rd and 4th lines more evenly opens up the door for both scenarios. We could debate if we think we want to keep all our true top end talents in our top 6, but I think going with just one straight up 4th line for this team is the wrong call now.

Assuming they will be just as good of a team is a pretty big assumption, no?

Generally you play your better players more than your worst players, because that is what makes your team toughest to beat any given night. You're talking about playing your worst players more at the expense of some of your better players' time. It's counter-intuitive to say that the Blues can do that without being easier to play against.

Playing 17-18 minutes a night should not be unduly taxing on your talented players (i.e. pushing them to the point of being more susceptible to injury due to fatigue), and playing them 1-2 minutes less a night is certainly no guarantee that they'll be any healthier or "fresher" come playoff time. You could just as easily say that a whole season of playing a reduced role will under-prepare (both physically and mentally) your best players for the playoffs if they need to be leaned on more heavily there.

Is one of those more likely to be true? I don't know, and in a way, that's kind of the point. The long-term costs and benefits of such roster management are tenuous, at best. There's really no telling if it will make a difference one way or the other, or how much of a difference...not even with the benefit of hindsight.

I think it boils down to this: Assuming the playoffs are a given is not something that anyone within the organization is going to be doing, and I generally don't think that they're going to be approaching this season with the sort of long view that you seem to have in mind here. I think they'll be doing their best to win any given night, and they'll accept and deal with whatever consequences come as a natural byproduct of that when they happen.

I suppose anything is possible, though. This is just my opinion.

I think this is just a point were we are a crossroads. I don't think your opinion is wrong, I just think the next big thing in hockey evolution is going to be attacking with just a ton of depth. I've been of the opinion for a while that the "4th line" concept as we know it now, is eventually going to go the way of the Enforcer, if team can afford to do it. I just think we are uniquely set up to have the best shot to do it of any team I can remember. We have the Left Wingers. We have the Centers. All we need is the RW's, and we are swimming in young RW options. I think the real time to run this play 100% will hopefully be next year when Kyrou and hopefully one of Kostin or Foley is ready to take the mantle, but I want us to give our current group a shot to see if they can pull it off now.

 

[ZigZagBluesFan]

Armstrong has mentioned on more than one occasion that he likes to think of forward lines as a reliable 1-2 combo with that third spot being open to whoever fits best at that particular time.

I have to imagine right now those pairs for the top three lines looking like:

???-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Schenn-???
Steen-Bozak-???

From there you have your choice of slotting in Fabbri, Maroon, and Perron where they have the most chemistry.

If Fabbri shows the chemistry that he's shown with Tarasenko in the past, I'd love to see:

Fabbri-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Schenn-Perron
Steen-Bozak-Maroon

With that you take the pressure off Thomas who can now learn at his own pace and earn a spot in the top 9 making for some tough decisions.

 

[Bluesguru]

The team is loaded. Maroon was an essential piece added. I wonder how long it will take before the national media recognizes how strong this team really is. It's a bonafide SC Cup contender IMO.

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

Don’t get me wrong I like the idea of no 4th line. I mean it’s would be awesome if the Blues Marketing embraced it instead of “Whatever it takes” go with “What 4th line” or “Who needs a 4th Line?” Or something like that.

But in retrospect I’d say it’s just marketing; I mean look at the Superteams when the NHL had its head out of their @#$ and allowed the players to play in the Olympics. Team Canada is always stacked, to a lesser extent Team USA, and Russia. They have legit NHL top six talent and sometime stars on 3rd and 4th lines. When interviewed everyone of those guys would say I’m here for my country and I accept the role I’d have been given to help my team win.

If having a scoring 4th line was the key to success I’d think team Canada would of been doing that for awhile but instead they stack their top six give the most minutes to their stars and ask the bottom six guys to take on the defensive minutes and roles so the team can be successful.

If we can pull off four scoring lines sign me up, but at the end of the day as long as we have two scoring lines that can score and a bottom six that can chip in without being a liability I’m happy as well.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

As much as I'd love to predict lines, I'll just wait until camp and keep rolling the dice until we hit Yahtzee.

 

[Dbrownss]

The team is loaded. Maroon was an essential piece added. I wonder how long it will take before the national media recognizes how strong this team really is. It's a bonafide SC Cup contender IMO.

I dont think they are honestly. I think they will be a strong playoff team but there is alot of turn over. Need alot of chemistry to form

 

[Meatball]

Blues lose for Hughes:

Fabbri-Barbashev-Tarasenko
Steen-Thomas-Jaskin
Maroon-Bozak-Nolan
Stevens-Sundquist-Thorburn

 

[Xerloris]

Schwartz - Schenn - Perron
Fabbri - ROR - Tarasenko
Steen - Bozak - Kyrou
Maroon - Thomas - Soshnikov

Players in Bold are the pairs I think we need to try and stick to. Everyone else can be interchanged as needed. I have no idea why so many people think seperating Schwartz and Schenn is a good idea. In fact I find it highly disturbing that so many people want to do that.

 

[DatDude44]

Armstrong has mentioned on more than one occasion that he likes to think of forward lines as a reliable 1-2 combo with that third spot being open to whoever fits best at that particular time.

I have to imagine right now those pairs for the top three lines looking like:

???-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Schenn-???
Steen-Bozak-???

From there you have your choice of slotting in Fabbri, Maroon, and Perron where they have the most chemistry.

If Fabbri shows the chemistry that he's shown with Tarasenko in the past, I'd love to see:

Fabbri-O'Reilly-Tarasenko
Schwartz-Schenn-Perron
Steen-Bozak-Maroon

With that you take the pressure off Thomas who can now learn at his own pace and earn a spot in the top 9 making for some tough decisions.

The exact lineup i've been saying. (tho maybe flip flop maroon/steen).......since yesterday.......despite the 8 million other lineups i came up with before the maroon signing lmao.

 

[Thallis]

Schwartz - Schenn - Perron
Maroon - ROR - Tarasenko
Steen - Bozak - Thomas/Fabbri
Sosh - Barb - Jaskin
Extra: Thorburn Sundqvist

I think Maroon and ROR are the natural fits for Tarasenko. Both good in the corners to retrieve the puck for him and can stir things up in front. Those three should score 40 goals or more from offensive zone faceoff plays alone.

 

[Oberyn]

Safe to say there's a plethora of line combinations available. May as well use the Hitchcock Lineup Generator at this point.

Ken Hitchcock Lineup Generator

 

[ort]

Yeah, speculating, while fun, is pretty pointless at this point. They'll have to do a lot of experimenting early on and see who plays well together. This is going to be a work in progress with all of this turnover.

 

[bluebird enthusiast]

 

[PelleLindbergh]

Any ideas on how the PP units might look? and where Dunn might fit in on them, on the 1st unit or 2nd?

 

[bleedblue1223]

Any ideas on how the PP units might look? and where Dunn might fit in on them, on the 1st unit or 2nd?

I'd say the only locks are Schwartz, Tarasenko, and Schenn on the 1st unit. I'd also include Dunn being the lock on the 1st unit, as that's where he finished the season.

Considering how bad it was last year, we need to try anything to improve it, so who knows.

 

[PelleLindbergh]

I'd say the only locks are Schwartz, Tarasenko, and Schenn on the 1st unit. I'd also include Dunn being the lock on the 1st unit, as that's where he finished the season.

Considering how bad it was last year, we need to try anything to improve it, so who knows.

Music to my ears!! Let's hope it turns out that way with Dunn, have high hopes for him

 

[Majorityof1]

I'd say the only locks are Schwartz, Tarasenko, and Schenn on the 1st unit. I'd also include Dunn being the lock on the 1st unit, as that's where he finished the season.

Considering how bad it was last year, we need to try anything to improve it, so who knows.

I don't think those 3 are a lock for the same unit. Tarasenko and Schenn like the same spot. We went out and got right-handed shots for a reason. I'd split those 2 and give them each a RHS forward as well. Schwartz, Schenn, Perron/Thomas, Maroon/Steen/Fabbri, and Pietrangelo on a one of the units. O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Bozak, Dunn and Parayko on another. Or something like that.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I don't think those 3 are a lock for the same unit. Tarasenko and Schenn like the same spot. We went out and got right-handed shots for a reason. I'd split those 2 and give them each a RHS forward as well. Schwartz, Schenn, Perron/Thomas, Maroon/Steen/Fabbri, and Pietrangelo on a one of the units. O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Bozak, Dunn and Parayko on another. Or something like that.

Schenn's best spot on the PP in his career was the high slot, he's pretty adaptable. I still say you put the best offensive players on the top unit, and it's up to the coaches to determine the best system to fit them into.

Just like our forward lines, we have no idea what they will do since all we know is that they need to make changes to it.

 

[Mike Liut]

Here's my lines.

Schwartz Schenn Kyrou
Perron O'Reilly Fabbri
Maroon Bozak Tarasenko
Steen Thomas Soshnikov


Dougie keeps mentioning Kyrou too often to not think he's going to be given a long rope. If he doesn't pan out the move Steen/Perron around. I'm taking the balanced approach, all lines have a RHS to help with east/west plays

That’s close to mine. Id go with this

Schwartz - Schenn - Kyrou
Maroon - O’Reilly - Tarasenko
Fabbri - Bozak - Perron
Steen - Thomas - Soshnikov/Jaskin