GDT: 2013 NHL Free Agent Frenzy Part 5

[HABS win CUPS*]

he's getting a bit older now but would anyone else actually be excited to see someone like A Vermette play for the habs or even Pavelski? Mainly for their skill in face-off situations and Vermette is over 6 feet i think

 

[Kriss E]

That's pure made-up BS! I've never thought that, let alone said it or wrote it. You're down to new lows Kriss, making stuff up.

Tell me both... how's AK? How many Cups has he won? How much success has he contributed to? How many teams want him? The point is Penner is better, period.

Not making up anything. Maybe you don't remember, but I clearly do.

You have been anti-Kost forever, always on both their case, always.
And then you ask for Penner, a less skilled but bigger North American version of AKost.

How many cups do Oates, Dionne, Lafontaine, etc, have?? What's your point? Winning a cup isn't the difference between who's better, that's so dumb and you know it.

Penner had a good PO playing on the 3rd line of a solid team, averaging 13min a game.

In any event, I'm not going to do this with you, I just wanted to clarify things because you seem to have a selective memory. People made fun of you because you have a clear double standard. Penner is just as inconsistent as AK.

 

[Milhouse40]

People on this board are overacting like usual. Makes me ashamed of being a Habs fan. Desharnais had a bad year, yes, but let's see what he can do next year, he deserves to have a chance to bounce back.

Bounce back?

Always lost most of his battle one on one....from day one
Never had an NHL shot...so he won't get one even if he "bounce back"
Never been good defensively, so he won't even if he "bounce back"
Still won't be able to push, hit, intimidate, go throught any players.
Still won't have the necessary speed useful to every single small playesr in the NHL
Still gonna be the 233th smaller center in the NHL (out of 234)

Most poeple think that if he get a couple of points more, he will be a good player.

But never forget, his spot (centering the offensive line with less defensive duties) is the one for Galchenyuk!! That will never change!!

 

[Habsterix*]

Not making up anything. Maybe you don't remember, but I clearly do.

Prove it! My posts are all there. I've never, ever said that was a consistent player, that he battled hard, and that he was a big checker. Find one post where I said that... I dare you. The onus is on you buddy.

I did say that he has a big body and that he uses it well to protect the puck, and he's hard to knock off the puck, and that he was better defensively than Kostitsyn as he was even killing penalties at that time, that I recall.

And you're absolutely right on one point: I didn't like Kostitsyn... and time proved me right!

 

[Forsead]

Prove it! My posts are all there. I've never, ever said that was a consistent player, that he battled hard, and that he was a big checker. Find one post where I said that... I dare you. The onus is on you buddy.

I did say that he has a big body and that he uses it well to protect the puck, and he's hard to knock off the puck, and that he was better defensively than Kostitsyn as he was even killing penalties at that time, that I recall.

And you're absolutely right on one point: I didn't like Kostitsyn... and time proved me right!

Penner vs Kostitsyn debate aside, I think we need an industrious gritty guy or at least a guy that go in front of the net and stay there to take the punishment.

That's also why I would prefer Cleary and Morrow to Jagr. So, in my mind the Habs still have good options before taking a chance with Penner. Then again if it come down to that I won't be mad, it could work out, especially that I like his impact in two successful Stanley Cup runs.

 

[Myron Gaines*]

Penner vs Kostitsyn debate aside, I think we need an industrious gritty guy or at least a guy that's big a go in front of the net and stay there to take the punishment.

That's also why I would prefer Cleary and Morrow to Jagr. So, in my mind the Habs still have good options before taking a chance with Penner. Then again if it come down to that I won't be mad, it could work out, especially that I like his impact in two successful Stanley Cup runs.

Cleary will be expensive IMO, Morrow would be a good pick up for 1 or 2 years.

 

[yianik]

In the past 2 years, the only Dustin Penner I know of, the guy on the Kings, has played 136 regular season and play-off games in the past 2 years. He has scored 15 goals in those 136 games. Its true he turns it up a notch in the post season, scoring 6 times in 38 games, or 13 over 82 versus 9 goals in 98 regular season games, on pace for 8 goals over 82 games. Okay, being sarcastic, seriously now, like the size but nothing else, big no.

 

[SlyIslands]

I like size but Penner... really? This guy is terrible and everyone would complain about him. I would be willing to bet that if the Habs get him you will see his name in all trade proposals possible.

 

[hogtownhabsfan*]

I wouldn't mind Penner on a one year show me deal, but that would be it.

 

[Ice Poutine]

I really like Penner when he does that magic show with his partner Teller. Penner and Teller are good!

 

[overlords]

I really like Penner when he does that magic show with his partner Teller. Penner and Teller are good!

I wouldn't mind Penner, but my favorite Penner is still Fred.

 

[Ice Poutine]

I wouldn't mind Penner, but my favorite Penner is still Fred.

I lost interest in Fred Penner when he started doing drugs and all the music he wrote was Heavy Metals songs...

 

[FlyingKostitsyn]

he's getting a bit older now but would anyone else actually be excited to see someone like A Vermette play for the habs or even Pavelski? Mainly for their skill in face-off situations and Vermette is over 6 feet i think

Working in QC city airport, we often get to see the regional hockey players (just saw Tanguay yesterday. I said ''hello Mr. Tanguay!'' and looked so shy and slightly embarassed. no wonder he didn't stay long in Mtl.). Anyways one of my very hockey intensive (and sadly pro Nordiques) collegue had a talk with Vermette. When asked if he'd be happy if the Coyotes moved to Qc so he could play here he basically answered ''LOL no'' (I'm paraphrasing obviously ) and said he likes it much better when its quiet and no pressure.

So yeah, I doubt he'd sign in Montreal.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Working in QC city airport, we often get to see the regional hockey players (just saw Tanguay yesterday. I said ''hello Mr. Tanguay!'' and looked so shy and slightly embarassed. no wonder he didn't stay long in Mtl.). Anyways one of my very hockey intensive (and sadly pro Nordiques) collegue had a talk with Vermette. When asked if he'd be happy if the Coyotes moved to Qc so he could play here he basically answered ''LOL no'' (I'm paraphrasing obviously ) and said he likes it much better when its quiet and no pressure.

So yeah, I doubt he'd sign in Montreal.

I never understood it. I don't blame someone for wanting privacy and all that. I'll just never understand how some avoid big markets their entire careers. They refuse to even attempt to be in a hockey market for even a year. Vermette was in Ottawa so that's fair enough but some guys...it boggles the mind.

 

[NLHabsFan]

I never understood it. I don't blame someone for wanting privacy and all that. I'll just never understand how some avoid big markets their entire careers. They refuse to even attempt to be in a hockey market for even a year. Vermette was in Ottawa so that's fair enough but some guys...it boggles the mind.

I agree. Big hockey markets opens up options for sponsorships and endorsement deals, big or small. Extra income right

 

[CheldishGamibno]

He has had one good year, and one bad year (and one half/"whatever" year)... TOTAL... in his NHL career... How many NHLers do you think can say the same thing? He doesn't deserve ANYTHING. He does, however, have a LOT to prove.

Still, does he deserves all the hate? It's his second year in the NHL. I know he's not 20, but it could be a sophomore slump. He was a rookie last year and people seems to forget that.

 

[Jee]

So the restaurant dude... what's up with that ?

 

[dreamingofdrouin*]

So the restaurant dude... what's up with that ?

ditto

 

[sampollock]

Would be nice to know which twitter sources are real and which ones are guys living in their moms basement writing for hits.

But twitter is yaking morrow to habs is done. Lets see who is yanking whose chain

 

[HankyZetts]

The idea that you can build a team that's "built for the playoffs" but isn't very good in regular season seems dumb. Isn't that what Toronto kept preaching as they went after old UFAs. They were built for the playoffs, and every year they would beat Ottawa in the 1st round and then go nowhere.

I never said that. Having a good team that raises its game in the playoffs is what I want. Not a good team who gets exposed in the playoffs, which is what we have.

I know the "moar size" thing is running rampant nowadays on here, but come on. Our team sucked in the POs because guys like Plek, Pac, DD, Price, Ryder pulled disappearing acts. Clear as day that we need a tougher defence to defend our net, but also more clutch scorers in front who know how to perform when the big meanies from the other team start pushing hard. With that in mind how can I be mad at landing Briere for 2 years for a mil less than Gionta?? 0.5M more than DD?! hahaha!

Gionta had two seasons of of 46 points, an injury riddled season which he was below that pace and last year where he had a pro-rated 44 points. I just don't see the decline.

Gionta is the product of the centerman he plays with. He works hard, but he literally makes the players around him worse. That's my opinion, so there's really no need to continue debating things of this sort as we've both watched enough of him to have our own ideas. Agree to disagree.

All the guys I listed can create using vision and skill. But if your offence is entirely built on vision and skill and lacks that crash the net ability you aren't going to go very far. You need a balance of both. Before Briere we needed more crash & bang, Briere simply makes it even more so.

Once again, agree to disagree. I think Plek, Patches and Gallagher are all better served as the finisher in a give and go, and aren't really creative playmaking-wise.

Why is that? They have two elite players in Giroux and Voracek but we are much deeper. Maybe if Schenn and Couturier break out big time they'll be as deep as us but if we are playing the what if game then we have a couple players poised to take big steps as well.

Again, imo it isn't debatable. I think they have a top-5 forward crop in the league so, yah.

Gallagher and Gionta are also really good in tight and in scrambles in front of the net. The problem is that in the playoffs defenceman are allowed to interfere and knock you down. That why's you need guys like Hartnell do go in and breakdown the defensive coverage in front of the net, then the small in tight players can swoop in and score.

Well that's it, Briere is just way better at navigating the tough areas in the POs. He is more talented and experienced in this regard. I'd much rather hope for a big goal from him in the playoffs, rather than a rookie, or Brian Gionta... or Morrow, or Pleks or pretty much anyone we have, really!

 

[bsl]

The future cup-contending core is:

Galchenyuk
Gallagher
Eller
Pacioretty
-------
Subban
Emelin
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Diaz
------
Price

Is that good enough to eventually compete for a cup? Maybe. If everything goes right, it will be comparable to the cores of Chicago, Boston, Detroit, etc when they won the cup. But only if everything goes right. In order to increase our odds, we need either:
1) A high quality UFA pickup. Briere does not count, we need someone good.
2) A high quality trade where we leverage the likes of Gorges, Plekanec, Bourque, Markov, Gionta, etc to somehow turn silver or bronze into gold. We can throw in a 1st rounder or two if it helps.
3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.

This will be very hard to pull off. Bergevin failed this summer. He didn't increase our asset pool, and the Briere acquisition completes the squandering of cap space that began with the failure to lock up Subban and the ridiculous contract to Desharnais.

Very good post. And bold above: This and next year are the last draft years that may produce players for our first cup window. Except for top 10 picks, which Danny Briere will prevent us from getting, guys drafted after 2014 will take 4-5 years to become effective, and Price, Subby and our young core will already be past prime. Amazing to realize this, isn't it? Welcome to the new young NHL. Our window with this young core opens in 2014. And closes in 2019.

I'd rather include Emelin, Gorges and Diaz in a discussion about our core than Tinordi or Beaulieu. Jumping the gun a little/being hypocritical putting prospects in our core group of players.

My argument states that Gorges and possibly Emelin will simply be too old to contribute effectively in our cup window. They should be traded. All cup teams eventually have 2-3 lower picks who pan out at 21 or so. Look at Habs in 86. We have to depend on TT and the draft team for this. I think they know full well that excluding Chuckie, at least 2 or 3 of the guys picked the last 2 years, and guys picked this year and next, must be good enough to help in our window. Cross your fingers.

Yeah, but you're missing the point. It's not about whether or not you can win without them, it's who does the "major lifting" when carrying a successful team. Look at some championship teams:

Chicago (2013):
First line: Toews (24), Bickell (26), Kane (24)
Top pairing: Keith (29), Seabrook (27)/Hjarlmarsson (25)
Goalie: Crawford (28)

L.A. (2012):
Top centres: Kopitar (24), Richards (26), Carter (27), Stoll (29)
Top defenseman: Doughty (22)
Goalie: Quick (26)

Boston (2011) - possibly one of the older sets of "core players", but:
Top 4 highest scoring forwards in playoffs: Krejci (24), Bergeron (25), Marchand (22), Horton (25) [5th was Ryder, who was 30]

Chicago (2010): Essentially the same core that went on to win in 2013.

Pittsburgh (2009): Malkin (22), Crosby (21), Staal (20), Letang (21), Fleury (24)

Detroit (2008) - usually a veteran and experienced team:
Top 5 playoff scorers: Zetterberg (27), Datsyuk (29), Franzen (28), Kronwall (27), Hudler (24)

Now, like you said, you can't win without those 30+ year old vets, but how many of them would you have paid more than any of these guys in these years for their relative contribution - even with the benefit of hindsight?

I don't think anyone here actually has a firm grasp on what the "window" is at any point. One major move the following season, and it could all change. One major injury the following season, and it could all change. People just like to come up with conversation and defend opinion, lol.

Great post with great research. Well done. As for predicting a cup window, I base my prediction on evidence of the last 4-5 cup winners, all of whom had massive contributions from their best core players under 30, and many under age 25. That puts Habs at 2014-2019, with some variation possible of course.

We may also through draft get new young core stars that extend our window. See Wings, 70's Habs etc. Build while winning. We can only dream...

1. Markov and Plekanec wont be on our cup team ? considering Plekanec is only 30, is pretty much injury free and doesnt play a physical game (lessen the risks of an injury), and also doesnt show any sign he's about to slow down... why wouldnt he be part of a cup team (you know, cup window in 2 years only as you said yourself)

2. Youth is not the only way to go, and going younger doesnt mean you have to get rid of every 30 years old you know... besides, one of the cup finalist this year went the total opposite of that, they STARTED their build with the signing of a 30 years old UFA...

You are correct of course. Age 30 was a bit arbitrary, and used for the dramatic effect. Which worked.... But I still say that over 30 is getting old in this NHL, and that means, possibly, that Pleks and Marky will not be in our cup window. But you bring up good points, both players may age very well, and Markov could be Lidstrom lite. I hope so, and I;ve said so myself. Don't write him off just yet.

Hawks top ten players for minutes/game in the playoffs (not the definitive measure of "impact" to be sure, but a good indication of their volume of use)

Players under 25: 2 (Kane-24, Saad-20)

Players 25-29: 4 (Toews-25, Hjalmersson- 26, Seabrook-28, Keith-29)

Players 30+: 4 (Sharp-30, Oduya-31, Hossa-34, Rosival-34)

I think a far more accurate description is that because of the financial reality of a cap system, players on ELC & RFA contracts are more likely to give a team greater bang for their buck, and so in building competitive rosters, teams are at an advantage if they have quality players earning "less" than they are "worth".

in that perspective, while trading for a quality young asset is ALWAYS a good idea, it makes no sense if what is required by that trade is to give up quality vets on "good value" contracts &/or other young talent with smaller cap hits/more years of ELC/RFA.

would make no sense, for example, to trade Plekanec because he's "over 30", unless you're replacing him with a superior (not just younger) NHL ready player...

GM's have always balanced the risk/reward in trading established assets for younger players projecting to be as good/better down the road, nothing new here.

for the Habs, I'd argue that the ideal window to aggressively pursue cup contention lies right now & in the next 2-3 seasons...

Having Galch, Gally, Tinordi, Beaulieu all ready/borderline ready to play solid roles for the team on small contracts + the existing RFA deals with Subban/Diaz/Emelin, & that gives you 5-7 roster players (one of which a norris winner ) all under 3M$(galch a touch over) and all capable to give you anywhere from effective to excellent top-9/top5 play.

add in MaxPac/Gorges/Bourque (at least the "good" bourque) on solid deals, and Pleks/Markov as vets giving you above market value play at their cap hits, and you have a pretty good nucleus of quality play for the dollar.

With the cap space the compliance buyouts provided him, and not making the extension mistakes with Desharnais/Bouillion, Habs were potentially looking at having that strong nucleus AND ~13M$ in cap space.

UFA market is a bad place to "build" a quality roster, to be sure, and this years crop didn't really have any pieces that were a good enough fit to be worth the market excess required to land them...

but, leveraging that cap space AND the huge number of picks in the top-90 we had, could have feasibly given him creative trade options that either he didn't explore or didn't pursue aggressively enough.

in any case, patiently & methodically building towards a winner is a WAY better approach than the foolish UFA entries of the past, so no complaints there.

Still doesn't really make much sense of the Briere addition (Ryder, at less, & younger/more effective, would have been a better choice IF he felt the need for that scoring winger role to be filled), nor does it earn this management team much kudos for their creativity in improving the roster short term.


better boring and safe than "gomez" creative, i suppose, but not too inspiring either way.

Great post. I advise readers to read the whole of MT post above. You bring Cap and economics into play, fair enough, in saying that younger players on good deals add value, and allow for the signing of expensive FA. But as valid as that is, it was not the reasoning I was using in arguing for extremely 'young' cores.

My argument is that younger players are simply better than older players in most cases, given the high speed and massive abuse required to win a cup now.

Good post bsl. I can't say we don't need any veterans, because all the winning teams have them, but the core/important players are younger ones. The contracts that were given out on free agency were ridiculous. I agree we need to complete the team through trades and it is a good thing that the team is building up a strong prospect pool because they are great trading chips.

The types of players you listed to go after in trades are the types I was hoping he would take a run at this offseason. Players such as Bobby Ryan and Braydon Coburn fit that description. I don't know if MB was/is willing to pay the price right now though. Maybe he will wait to see the continued progression this year.

Exactement. Trade for youth. Bergy may have tried, I don't know. But he better try harder next year.

3) How had Bergevin failed this summer? Dude the UFA period opened July 5th (8 days ago). It's not over lol

If he trades this year or next for young and bruising top 4 D man, and a young big 20 goal forward that both can help us win the cup in 3 years, then he has not failed. But so far he has failed. Unlike Gainey and PG, Bergy has a young core that could win it all, and he needs to act this year and next to surround that core. That is the very essence of my argument. Signing Danny Briere has nothing to do with that task, and may hurt our chances of succeeding in that task.

Good post... Thought you were of the mindset that this was a good signing, guess not.

I posted this in another thread but we're seeing the consequences of not doing a full scale rebuild now. If we'd taken the awful tasting medicine back then we'd be in better shape now. Nothing we can do about this though.

Our blueline is ****ed. It really is right now. Tinordi is green, Gorges pulled a disappearing act and we're left with Markov who's now a PP specialist, Subban and spare parts. The one area where MB HAS to improve is adding a big shutdown guy. And he's got to do this now because we can't shaft Price the way we did this year. If we don't add that blueliner it's going to be ugly.

We didn't get the PF... okay. Too bad but it is what it is. Leaving aside Briere, there's no excuse for not getting a shut down guy. He's got to do this. Coburn would be good a guy with size and the Flyers are cap screwed. Trades aren't easy but he's got to do something about this. If he doesn't we'd better pray that Tinordi is all we hope he is and that Price can have a good year. Because if things don't go right, it's going to be a rough, rough year.

Actually they do. See Pittsburgh and Chicago. Edmonton is a different case because all their talent is loaded up on the forwards. There's no balance there. Still a very young team though, you aren't going to win a cup with 18 year olds but you can with 22 and 23 year olds.

Can't blame MB for that. His predecessors refused to rebuild the right way and now we deal with the consequences.

What we can blame him for though is perpetuating the past by signing Briere... something that' right out of Gainey and VeganSkeletor's playbook. That was just dumb and really shook my confidence. If we were close, we took a step back. Any hopes that I had of us competing this year or next were really taken aback by this move.

All good LG. To be fair though, as I mentioned, Bergy also must try to ice a competitive team every year. That is part of his mandate, and Briere will help next year in that respect.

Of course, that also means because of DB, Habs may end up 8th, not 11th, and draft lower. THAT of course is the subject of many many threads, is it not LG? But as for draft, after 2014, I don't care about the draft for this cup window. The 2015 draft will be about extending this window, not this window.

 

[Mrb1p]

Prove it! My posts are all there. I've never, ever said that was a consistent player, that he battled hard, and that he was a big checker. Find one post where I said that... I dare you. The onus is on you buddy.

I did say that he has a big body and that he uses it well to protect the puck, and he's hard to knock off the puck, and that he was better defensively than Kostitsyn as he was even killing penalties at that time, that I recall.

And you're absolutely right on one point: I didn't like Kostitsyn... and time proved me right!

You really disliked the poor AK.

 

[elsubz]

You really disliked the poor AK.

That guy is prolly related to Benoit Brunet. Ak must have done something awful to their families.

 

[axman88]

If the rumors are true about Morrow for a cap hit of 2.5

I think the habs can still afford to sign Fistrick and keep all the players that they currently have...with Emelin starting on the IR and the current cap space they have

 

[S Bah]

The Habs should be focused on the RFA defencemen and acquiring the best one to suit Subban as their 1st pairing, even if that cost is two 1st's and a 2nd round picks. A. Pietrangelo and A. Bogosian being two Dmen that are up for new contracts this summer. This would give them opportunity to fill out the forwards necessary to build a dynasty in the near future.