sigh yea i don't see why we took Briere over someone like Lecavalier
Um... they went after Lecavalier, he signed with Flyers two days before the Habs signed Briere. So they didn't take him over Lecavalier. Lecavalier chose someone else.
sigh yea i don't see why we took Briere over someone like Lecavalier
Um... they went after Lecavalier, he signed with Flyers two days before the Habs signed Briere. So they didn't take him over Lecavalier. Lecavalier chose someone else.
Yes but I had thought he chose them for $$$$ ie highest bidder won or did he say no to Montreal aside from the cash
Better yet, get one of Samsonov...
Most teams are dumb for picking up UFAs. They are almost always not worth the money. Look at us: Gionta, Samsonov, Cole... After a year or two (and sometimes less than that) we're all making threads on how to get rid of those guys. Let's be honest man, we HAVE been dumb with how we've gone about this stuff in the past. Our asset management has been terrible. We let our players go for nothing and have replaced them with equally medicore and more expensive players.
What's saved us is our scouting and drafting.
On the UFA side of things, its very rare for a true superstar (a guy actually worth the dollars) to become UFA. That's because teams are too smart to let them go for nothing. The best that can be said about Briere is that it's only for two years. Doesn't make it a good signing but it could've been worse.
'Could've Been Worse' though is not a strategy for building a winning team.
This.
Our PP was top 5 in the league. We don't need help there.
As for him being tradeable, he's got a NMC...
1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.
2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.
Never said he'd play 80 games, as long as he produces when he's in and he's healthy-ish in the playoffs, then I'm happy.He's rarely hit 80 games a season in his career so there's no reason to expect him to be perfectly healthy during his time here.
I'm sure that had more to do with the players he was playing with and his goaltending, as to him being a net-minus. Playoffs matter more because they matter more. It's what we're all here for. If the guy is known to be a boss in the POs, then that is a big plus.I don't understand the playoffs matter more explanations. First off for all the points he's scoring he's on the ice for more goals against then he is goals for and his PP points don't make up the difference. So he's a net minus for his team.
Didn't help us much this season, you still need the players to win you games once you're there. Some players get you to the playoffs, and some get you through them! Cammy would still be here if he weren't a primadonna headcase. Briere is a great influence for the youngn's.Second, getting a better position in the regular season gives advantages for the playoffs (Weaker opposition, Home Ice Advantage, a chance to rest battered players) so the regular season is very important. And finally, we already got rid of a small soft player who would only show up in the playoffs, do we really want to go back to the Cammy days.
Gionta has been getting worse each season, it's a good thing that he still manages to pop some goals, but he stagnates any offense on the rush which is a giant part of our system. Our odd-man rushes are embarassing.Gionta has been scoring his usual 25-30 goals a season since he joined us. There's been no decline so far.
Throwing the puck at the net does not make you a "creator". George Parros can throw the puck to the net. I'm talking about guys that can delay and find the seams. Like, really create offense with their vision and skill. Only Galchenyuk and DD are really good at it. Eller has his glimpses but seems much more comfortable cycling and crashing/shooting. Plekanec is respectable but would benefit from a skilled winger, like Briere, who can set him up to shoot more often.Plekanec, Desharnais, Pacioretty, Eller, Galchenyuk are all "creators" so in our top-9 we had 5 creators, you need a mix of creators and finishers. Throwing the puck at the net and crashing/banging in a goal might not look as nice but count for the same amount. Not too mention is generally considered the best way to score in the playoffs.
Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Lecavalier, Couturier, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Rosehill, Hall...It's not just offence from the D it's the depth at forward. We might not have a Giroux or Voracek but they only had 5 forwards at 0.5ppg, we had 8. They had 3 guys on pace for a pro rated 20 goal season, we had 7.
Briere is one of the absolute best in tight and in scrambles in front of the net so he'll obviously help us in that department, no? Why do you think he is so good in the playoffs?As for scoring in the playoffs most people claim you do this with size and crashing the net. We got boxed out of the front of the net by Ottawa, how does Briere help change that?
Briere has made a living around the net. He definitely helps us in those goal-mouth scrambles and tips off shots from the point... His effectiveness when the whistles have been put away has already been proven via consistent excellence in the POs throughout his career. So....Yes, it sucked when it counted most... you know when that was? It was in the playoffs where the whistles get put away and you need big guys to go to the net and screen the goalie. That's what we needed. Briere will not make one iota of difference there. None.
And it wasn't just the PP either... we just played the perimeter and didn't go to the net all series long. Meanwhile we let other teams have a patio party in front of Price. That's our problem and getting Briere just makes it worse.
First, I don't agree. Secondly, who cares? We have enough guys that can put up 50-60 points firing from the perimeter. We don't need another one.
That doesn't make any sense.. It'd make much more sense to say "All receivers and no running backs" or "All DBs and no Linebackers", although in both cases there have been successful teams with said make-up..What we needed was a guy to create space for the 50-60 point players that we already have. As LShap said in another thread, if we were a football team we'd be all receivers and no linebackers. Good luck winning anything this way.
He doesn't make any weakness worse as he is replacing a player who is inferior to him in every way! Ryder/Gionta do not bring anything in the grit, space creating department so just stop with that crap. Ryder was the easiest person to knock off the puck on the whole team, literally. Gionta plays like its NHL 07, just skating to the corner and throwing it to the front of the net. There are no free glitch one-timers in real life Gio!!! He sucks at this point, seriously.. I respect both he and Gorges greatly, but I cringe when I'm on CapGeek and I notice their names on our roster breakdown!And the worst part is that he makes our biggest weakness worse.
I don't see how you can argue that this was a good signing.
This is an interesting thread. I generally agree with LG, and in this case I also agree, but with some comments that I have not seen here:
1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.
2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.
3. I further said that Bergy's next challenge was to find a minute eating top 4 big D man, again, through trade. This D man should also be in our cup window in 2 years. We will see. It looks unlikely.
Conclusion: Bergy has dealt with next year and the need to at least be competitive. That is one of his jobs and we should not discount that. But he has not in any way improved Habs for the cup window in 2 years, discounting the draft.
I think that is what is really making LG and others upset, and I don't blame them. We have to act now by trade of good vets in order to have the youth, yes, youth, to compete for the cup in 2015.
Marky and Pleks will not be on our next cup team, and we should have traded them this summer, or we had better trade them next summer, in order to ensure that Habs are young enough, and big enough to win the cup in our window. The Cup is now all about youth, and it is taking some organizations a long time to realize this.
Briere was simply not a cup window signing. He is a signing to keep us in the playoff hunt next year. That is not good enough. Along with good drafting, Bergy needs to start trading for youth, next year, or he is done.
Bsl,
Outstanding post. You have really elucidated a lot of ideas percolating around the forum as subtext but not stated explicitly.
Isn't PIT the oldest team in the league? DET is also ancient
First, experienced vets are essential to winning a cup. Stop with the gerontophobia. Nobody wins a cup with a bunch of talented young guys (see EDM).
Second, our cup window always seem to be 2 years away. Anybody got anything more substantial in that regard? Maybe the fact that our cup window is always two years away is a clear sign that we are not making any significant progress?
Our cup window is two years away because of Galchenyuk.
He is not Komisarek, Higgins, Leblanc, Pacioretty, etc. He is our most talented forward prospect since Guy Lafleur, and nobody else comes close.
Think of the impact Jonathan Toews has on the Blackhawks.
diaz is not apart of our core and i wouldnt be surprised if he gets traded this year, last year of his contract and hes probably gonna ask for north of 3.5M+
3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.
People keep hanging on this. It's the only possible thread to grasp onto. Briere has nice personal playoff stats. But he's a minus player despite the gaudy numbers so he doesn't help you as much as you might hope. And if the scoring dries up he does precious little else to help the team.
What if we don't get that PPG playoff beast? He does nothing else for us. What if the concussed guy who scored 6 goals last year is all we're going to get? And you keep saying 41-year old Jagr. DB is 36 when the puck drops, not 26, and I think it's reasonable that Jagr, even 5 years his senior, will be more physically able to handle the upcoming season.
These other two guys were more productive than DB last year and bring other stuff besides the scoresheet, and both represent a greater need for the Habs than a defensively deficient undersized player like DB. And look, I'd have been happier if the team had taken a flyer on a younger player like Mueller or Brunner. I am just baffled that Bergevin looked at this roster and that of all players out there, that Briere was the guy they wanted or needed.
First, experienced vets are essential to winning a cup. Stop with the gerontophobia. Nobody wins a cup with a bunch of talented young guys (see EDM).
Second, our cup window always seem to be 2 years away. Anybody got anything more substantial in that regard? Maybe the fact that our cup window is always two years away is a clear sign that we are not making any significant progress?
This is an interesting thread. I generally agree with LG, and in this case I also agree, but with some comments that I have not seen here:
1. I have repeatedly stated that the UFA route increasingly sucks. Time and time again we see evidence of this. My reasoning here is that the NHL has become a game of young men. 30 and over, you are a question mark. It seems absurd, but I believe this is true. I also believe that good NHL GMs are getting this.
2. I also said that Bergy's biggest challenge this summer was to find a big, young, productive top six forward, by trade. This forward should also be in our cup window in 2 years. I also stated that this would likely be impossible. This has proven to be the case.
3. I further said that Bergy's next challenge was to find a minute eating top 4 big D man, again, through trade. This D man should also be in our cup window in 2 years. We will see. It looks unlikely.
Conclusion: Bergy has dealt with next year and the need to at least be competitive. That is one of his jobs and we should not discount that. But he has not in any way improved Habs for the cup window in 2 years, discounting the draft.
I think that is what is really making LG and others upset, and I don't blame them. We have to act now by trade of good vets in order to have the youth, yes, youth, to compete for the cup in 2015.
Marky and Pleks will not be on our next cup team, and we should have traded them this summer, or we had better trade them next summer, in order to ensure that Habs are young enough, and big enough to win the cup in our window. The Cup is now all about youth, and it is taking some organizations a long time to realize this.
Briere was simply not a cup window signing. He is a signing to keep us in the playoff hunt next year. That is not good enough. Along with good drafting, Bergy needs to start trading for youth, next year, or he is done.
I don't think anyone here actually has a firm grasp on what the "window" is at any point. One major move the following season, and it could all change. One major injury the following season, and it could all change. People just like to come up with conversation and defend opinion, lol.
. 30 is getting old. I stand by my argument. Do I like it? Not necessarily, but that is the reality.
...
I still think the Hawks are a more sustainable model than Bruins.
for the Habs, I'd argue that the ideal window to aggressively pursue cup contention lies right now & in the next 2-3 seasons...
Having Galch, Gally, Tinordi, Beaulieu all ready/borderline ready to play solid roles for the team on small contracts + the existing RFA deals with Subban/Diaz/Emelin, & that gives you 5-7 roster players (one of which a norris winner ) all under 3M$(galch a touch over) and all capable to give you anywhere from effective to excellent top-9/top5 play.
add in MaxPac/Gorges/Bourque (at least the "good" bourque) on solid deals, and Pleks/Markov as vets giving you above market value play at their cap hits, and you have a pretty good nucleus of quality play for the dollar.
With the cap space the compliance buyouts provided him, and not making the extension mistakes with Desharnais/Bouillion, Habs were potentially looking at having that strong nucleus AND ~13M$ in cap space.
UFA market is a bad place to "build" a quality roster, to be sure, and this years crop didn't really have any pieces that were a good enough fit to be worth the market excess required to land them...
but, leveraging that cap space AND the huge number of picks in the top-90 we had, could have feasibly given him creative trade options that either he didn't explore or didn't pursue aggressively enough.
in any case, patiently & methodically building towards a winner is a WAY better approach than the foolish UFA entries of the past, so no complaints there.
Still doesn't really make much sense of the Briere addition (Ryder, at less, & younger/more effective, would have been a better choice IF he felt the need for that scoring winger role to be filled), nor does it earn this management team much kudos for their creativity in improving the roster short term.
better boring and safe than "gomez" creative, i suppose, but not too inspiring either way.
what if ? what if ? all the guys we're talking about are 35+ so they can "break" at any time... Jagr may be in great shape, but he's 41 so he too can break at any time... and if he slows down you too will think his puck possession skills are rather useless, as much as a Briere not putting points on the board would be useless. as for Morrow, he's slow and as broken as Briere can be, and considering he plays a physical game I'm not sure it would be a great idea to bring a broken 35 yo to play a grinding role all season long...
keep believing Morrow and Jagr are eternal and will never break...
Never said he'd play 80 games, as long as he produces when he's in and he's healthy-ish in the playoffs, then I'm happy.
I'm sure that had more to do with the players he was playing with and his goaltending, as to him being a net-minus. Playoffs matter more because they matter more. It's what we're all here for. If the guy is known to be a boss in the POs, then that is a big plus.
Didn't help us much this season, you still need the players to win you games once you're there. Some players get you to the playoffs, and some get you through them! Cammy would still be here if he weren't a primadonna headcase. Briere is a great influence for the youngn's.
Gionta has been getting worse each season, it's a good thing that he still manages to pop some goals, but he stagnates any offense on the rush which is a giant part of our system. Our odd-man rushes are embarassing.
Throwing the puck at the net does not make you a "creator". George Parros can throw the puck to the net. I'm talking about guys that can delay and find the seams. Like, really create offense with their vision and skill. Only Galchenyuk and DD are really good at it. Eller has his glimpses but seems much more comfortable cycling and crashing/shooting. Plekanec is respectable but would benefit from a skilled winger, like Briere, who can set him up to shoot more often.
Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Lecavalier, Couturier, Schenn, Read, Hartnell, Talbot, Laughton, Rinaldo, Rosehill, Hall...
We can't compare, yet.
Briere is one of the absolute best in tight and in scrambles in front of the net so he'll obviously help us in that department, no? Why do you think he is so good in the playoffs?
Briere has made a living around the net. He definitely helps us in those goal-mouth scrambles and tips off shots from the point... His effectiveness when the whistles have been put away has already been proven via consistent excellence in the POs throughout his career. So....
sigh yea i don't see why we took Briere over someone like Lecavalier
The future cup-contending core is:
Galchenyuk
Gallagher
Eller
Pacioretty
-------
Subban
Emelin
Tinordi
Beaulieu
Diaz
------
Price
Is that good enough to eventually compete for a cup? Maybe. If everything goes right, it will be comparable to the cores of Chicago, Boston, Detroit, etc when they won the cup. But only if everything goes right. In order to increase our odds, we need either:
1) A high quality UFA pickup. Briere does not count, we need someone good.
2) A high quality trade where we leverage the likes of Gorges, Plekanec, Bourque, Markov, Gionta, etc to somehow turn silver or bronze into gold. We can throw in a 1st rounder or two if it helps.
3) More of our prospects to exceed expectations and somehow be good by 2015-2016: Collberg, Thomas, Ellis, Pateryn, McCarron. We really shouldn't be depending on this.
This will be very hard to pull off. Bergevin failed this summer. He didn't increase our asset pool, and the Briere acquisition completes the squandering of cap space that began with the failure to lock up Subban and the ridiculous contract to Desharnais.