2012 re-draft

The Red Helmet

Registered User
Dec 19, 2007
2,309
1,331
How is Reilly so low? Behind Girgensons really.

I don't know. Maybe because this season Girgensons scored 7 more goals, almost doubling Reilly's total and had 1 more point despite playing 20 less games. That could have something to do with it. Also Zemgus is the best defensive forward in this draft class. I don't even see how it is questioned.
 

Maplebeasts

I See Demons!!!!!
Oct 26, 2014
20,812
12,492
Barrie, Ontario
I don't know. Maybe because this season Girgensons scored 7 more goals, almost doubling Reilly's total and had 1 more point despite playing 20 less games. That could have something to do with it. Also Zemgus is the best defensive forward in this draft class. I don't even see how it is questioned.

Do you think him being a forward and Rielly being a defenseman might have something to do with that? :sarcasm:
 

Maplebeasts

I See Demons!!!!!
Oct 26, 2014
20,812
12,492
Barrie, Ontario
As a Leaf fan, Rielly is getting quite overrated by our fanbase (while Gardiner is becoming underrated). The majority of Leafs fans are penciling him as a future, 50+ point, #1 D-man and future captain. Don't see it. Great, explosive skater with very good puck skills but he has a putrid shot. Not that many good offensive D-man have bad shots - Duncan Keith is a rare exception. Defensively is very raw and gets outmuscled along the boards all the time. Hockey IQ is not nearly as good as Leafs fans make it out to be. See a #2 PMD at best and probably won't even be that good IMO. Trouba is a much better player currently and going forward and I don't think Ceci is that much behind him.

1. Trouba
2. Galchenyuk
3. Forsberg
4. Lindholm
5. Maata
6. Murray
7. Teravainen
8. Severson
9. Rielly
10. Girgensons

I disagree. When Dion was out with injury, Rielly thrived with #1 minutes and was scoring at a pretty remarkable pace for a defenseman. (I believe it was around 0.7 ppg, but I'm not 100% sure). Keep in mind this was only his second pro season. He shows flashes all the time that he can be a premier pffensive defenseman with his speed, hands and passing. His wrist shot is fine, it's his clapper that needs work. Trouba isn't much better currently either, if at all.
 

western redmen

the forgotten owskis
Jun 7, 2012
1,634
0
what has galchenyak done to be ahead of lindholm at this point? a pretend 1st line center by fans? yeah no, i take lindholm 1st OA right now
Lindholm
trouba
forsberg
Yak
Rielly
Maatta
galchenyak
 

HanSolo

DJ Crazy Times
Apr 7, 2008
97,345
32,058
Las Vegas
Wow what a horrrible draft this was. Was it supposed to be this bad? I know it wasn't considered as good at the top as most years.

Also-just a nitpick, you have Vasilevsky criminally low.

Goalies can be unpredictable. I want to see where he's at in 2 years when you're supposed to reflect on a draft.

I disagree. When Dion was out with injury, Rielly thrived with #1 minutes and was scoring at a pretty remarkable pace for a defenseman. (I believe it was around 0.7 ppg, but I'm not 100% sure). Keep in mind this was only his second pro season. He shows flashes all the time that he can be a premier pffensive defenseman with his speed, hands and passing. His wrist shot is fine, it's his clapper that needs work. Trouba isn't much better currently either, if at all.

He's not like in another atmosphere but the difference between the two is still clear. Have to disagree with the "if at all".
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,820
22,088
Evanston, IL
I disagree. When Dion was out with injury, Rielly thrived with #1 minutes and was scoring at a pretty remarkable pace for a defenseman. (I believe it was around 0.7 ppg, but I'm not 100% sure). Keep in mind this was only his second pro season. He shows flashes all the time that he can be a premier pffensive defenseman with his speed, hands and passing. His wrist shot is fine, it's his clapper that needs work. Trouba isn't much better currently either, if at all.

Offensively, you mean?
 

Mr Jiggyfly

Registered User
Jan 29, 2004
34,312
19,389
Wow what a horrrible draft this was. Was it supposed to be this bad? I know it wasn't considered as good at the top as most years.

Also-just a nitpick, you have Vasilevsky criminally low.

It's pretty funny how I have a completely different view as a Pens fan. The 2012 draft may help redeem Shero's poor drafting. His first four picks were Pouliot, Maatta, Sundqvist and Murray.

There are also a couple of nice sleepers as well he grabbed in the late rounds.
 

Atomos2

Registered User
Jun 28, 2012
16,509
2,749
Toronto, Ontario
Wtf is with all these lists with Trouba at the top?

He hasn't separated himself at all, why are people putting him on a pedestal? He's so god damn overrated.

Forsberg
Lindholm
Rielly
Trouba
Määttä
Galchenyuk
Murray
Teravainen
Yakupov
Ceci
Girgensen
Dumba
 

GoJetsGo55

Registered User
Apr 14, 2009
11,262
8,647
Winnipeg, MB
I don't see Reilly as being up there with Lindholm and Trouba at all. He might have the best offensive upside of the group, but not by much and not close to the all-around game those two have.

As far as rankings for Maata/Girgensons vs Reilly/TT, again, I mentioned it's a question of whether someone wants a risk but possibly greater payoff, or a safer pick that's a better player now. Either way, I see the top-2 (Trouba and Lindholm) being way ahead of everyone else (though their order is certainly debatable), then 3 and 4 IMO are similarly well defined right now, and only after that is the risk/reward trade-off a big effect on rankings. Reilly could just as easily be 5th on my list if that makes you feel better, but I absolutely don't consider putting him any higher than that.

Of course, it's still very early. So when I say the top-2 and to a lesser extent the top-4 is well in the lead, it's always possible someone else will emerge.



Trouba actually carries the worst LHD on the team in Mark Stuart. Stuart is a blackhole of possession. Not even Byfuglien, who is an advanced stats wizard, could make Stuart look serviceable in recent years. Stuart made Bogosian look like a brain-dead bottom-pairing D who couldn't do anything but turn the puck over. If anything, Trouba insulates Byfuglien and (especially) Myers by taking all the D-zone starts and PK time, and with the worst partner.

Suggesting that Trouba and Lindholm were insulated while Reilly wasn't is absurd:
In terms of rankings on their respective teams (i.e. usage):
in Corsi QoC: Reilly (6th), Lindholm (5th), Trouba (3rd)
in ES OZS%: Reilly (6th), Lindholm (6th), Trouba (6th)
ES TOI: Reilly (4th), Lindholm (2nd), Trouba (3rd)
PP TOI: Reilly (3rd), Lindholm (4th), Trouba (4th)
PK TOI: Reilly (6th), Lindholm (2nd), Trouba (1st)

At ES they all faced the least % of OZS on their teams, with Trouba deployed against tougher competition and Lindholm for more minutes - Reilly was the most sheltered of the 3, though none was heavily sheltered relative to their age. As far as how they performed, Reilly had the 4th best Corsi on his team, while Lindholm's was 4th and Trouba's was 1st.

Reilly averaged 30 seconds more of PP time than Trouba and >50 seconds more than Lindholm. Reilly played almost no PK time - his ranking would actually be worse but I excluded replacement level players (<15 GP), but it's somewhat telling that 3 of them were used more than Reilly.

Undoubtedly, Reilly was the most sheltered of the 3. This isn't to say Reilly is heavily sheltered - he's still logging a lot of minutes and being deployed outside the offensive zone a lot - but you can't pull the weak excuse of him being sheltered less than Trouba and Lindholm. Quantitatively everything points to the opposite.

Reilly is developing nicely but nothing currently suggests he should be considered with Trouba and Lindholm, both of whom are playing huge roles on good teams (and are big parts of why their teams are good). With how much these rankings differ from the actual draft, Leaf fans should be happy they didn't get one of the guys that has fallen instead of taking it personally that other people prefer players that have shot up the rankings.

This man speaks the truth
 

Romang67

BitterSwede
Jan 2, 2011
29,820
22,088
Evanston, IL
Wtf is with all these lists with Trouba at the top?

He hasn't separated himself at all, why are people putting him on a pedestal? He's so god damn overrated.

Forsberg
Lindholm
Rielly
Trouba
Määttä
Galchenyuk
Murray
Teravainen
Yakupov
Ceci
Girgensen
Dumba

Hi, Atomos!

It appears to me that the neutral fans disagree with your idea that Rielly has been superior to, or even as good as, Trouba so far in their careers.:dunno:

Being in the top 30 in the league in TOI/G is a pretty impressive feat for a sophomore D-man while having to fight for ice time with Byfuglien and Myers, don't you think? Maybe there is a reason why he plays that much?
 

Mad Dog Tannen

Registered User
Apr 10, 2010
4,946
2,647
Wtf is with all these lists with Trouba at the top?

He hasn't separated himself at all, why are people putting him on a pedestal? He's so god damn overrated.

Forsberg
Lindholm
Rielly
Trouba
Määttä
Galchenyuk
Murray
Teravainen
Yakupov
Ceci
Girgensen
Dumba

Atomos, no need to embarrass yourself. It's a discussion forum, people are allowed to have differing opinions. Troubas success doesn't devalue how awesome our player Reilly is. Troubas just evolved faster and is a better checker. Reilly is pretty good position ally and just as good offensively minus having a good shot.

Both prospects are good. Relax and have fun!
 

SchennSational1022*

Guest
It's still hilarious to see how high Tom Wilson was picked
 

Atomos2

Registered User
Jun 28, 2012
16,509
2,749
Toronto, Ontario
Hi, Atomos!

It appears to me that the neutral fans disagree with your idea that Rielly has been superior to, or even as good as, Trouba so far in their careers.:dunno:

Being in the top 30 in the league in TOI/G is a pretty impressive feat for a sophomore D-man while having to fight for ice time with Byfuglien and Myers, don't you think? Maybe there is a reason why he plays that much?

Unfortunately, neutral fans aren't the most informed bunch.

And TOI/G? All that shows is that he's gotten more of an opportunity. The rotation between Leaf coaches and how they used Rielly will show inconsistencies in those numbers as well.

I stand by my earlier argument that Rielly is stronger, faster and just as smart as (if not smarter than) Trouba and he's proven he doesn't need a booming shot to score goals in this league. Trouba's a fine defenceman and may even be a number 1 someday, but there is no way in hell I'd trade Rielly for him and it has very little to do with homerism.

Atomos, no need to embarrass yourself. It's a discussion forum, people are allowed to have differing opinions. Troubas success doesn't devalue how awesome our player Reilly is. Troubas just evolved faster and is a better checker. Reilly is pretty good position ally and just as good offensively minus having a good shot.

Both prospects are good. Relax and have fun!

Pointing out Trouba is overrated, which has been pretty obvious for the better part of two years, is hardly embarrassing me. I'm just posting what everybody already knows.

And being honest, I doubt Trouba did much evolving this season. I didn't see him taking any major steps forward that's for sure.
 

Italian President

Registered User
Aug 13, 2012
819
0
Morgan Reilly is a great player, but the hype on this guy has gotten out of control. Lindholm and Trouba are both hands down better than he is (can't decide which one is better) and Murray still has higher upside, he's just gotten slowed down by injuries while the rest of the players in his draft class have been establishing themselves on their teams.
 

Atomos2

Registered User
Jun 28, 2012
16,509
2,749
Toronto, Ontario
Morgan Reilly is a great player, but the hype on this guy has gotten out of control. Lindholm and Trouba are both hands down better than he is (can't decide which one is better) and Murray still has higher upside, he's just gotten slowed down by injuries while the rest of the players in his draft class have been establishing themselves on their teams.

People need to stop lumping these two together. Lindholm is clearly better than Trouba and Trouba isn't better than Rielly.
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
Wtf is with all these lists with Trouba at the top?

He hasn't separated himself at all, why are people putting him on a pedestal? He's so god damn overrated.

Forsberg
Lindholm
Rielly
Trouba
Määttä
Galchenyuk
Murray
Teravainen
Yakupov
Ceci
Girgensen
Dumba

Exactly this.
 

Italian President

Registered User
Aug 13, 2012
819
0
People need to stop lumping these two together. Lindholm is clearly better than Trouba and Trouba isn't better than Rielly.

I've seen every single game Lindholm has ever played in the NHL and I'd say he's got as high a ceiling as Trouba. Lindholm has a bigger role on his team right now, for what it's worth.
 

Mister Hockey

Registered User
Mar 4, 2004
1,626
1
Washington, Pa
Ehh but when he does play his talent level is obvious.

There's definitely a question. I'm a Ducks fan and still have him 4th.


I don't really know what Maatta, Rielly, and Murray have done better than Lindholm yet.

Maatta is just good at everything. He plays like he's been in the NHL for ten years. Now, if he can just stay healthy.
 

Cheddabombs

Status Quo
Mar 13, 2012
24,732
31,528
What a year for defensemen this draft can turn out to be. Some real quality, perhaps #1, Dman taken that year.

Also, Severson is real good. Thought I'd plug that in as he hasn't been mentioned that much.
 

Neutral Hockey Fan

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
2,881
1,294
Reilly is being badly underrated here just because he's a maple leaf. Take your anti leaf bias away for one second and be serious. Captain Morgan has be AMAZING. Just look at TSN, they have plays by Reilly in consideration for play of the year! He has more talent than anyone from this draft by far. And when playing the role of a number 1, he thrived. Putting up huge points per game and shutting down the best players on the other teams. Reilly hadn't been sheltered like all the other guys being listed ahead of him
 

Swervin81

Leaf fan | YYZ -> SEA
Nov 10, 2011
36,460
1,553
Seattle, WA
Reilly is being badly underrated here just because he's a maple leaf. Take your anti leaf bias away for one second and be serious. Captain Morgan has be AMAZING. Just look at TSN, they have plays by Reilly in consideration for play of the year! He has more talent than anyone from this draft by far. And when playing the role of a number 1, he thrived. Putting up huge points per game and shutting down the best players on the other teams. Reilly hadn't been sheltered like all the other guys being listed ahead of him

How ironic.

Seriously, this is just cringe-worthy. I LOVE Mo... but he ain't number 1 right now. Hell, he barely played it last year. He did show good progression as the season wound down when he got more minutes and I do thing he'll be a top pairing guy and captain material (arguably already is) going forward, but no way in hell he's the best player from this draft right now. Lindholm, and Maatta are ahead of Rielly at this point in time, probably Trouba too. Yakupov... although he has been a bit slow, the talent is undeniable. Forsberg also broke out in a big way.

My list right now?

1. Forsberg
2. Lindholm
3. Maatta
4. Trouba
5. Rielly
6. Yakupov
7. Murray
8. Galchenyuk
9. Dumba
10. Ceci
 

Swervin81

Leaf fan | YYZ -> SEA
Nov 10, 2011
36,460
1,553
Seattle, WA
Biggest first overall bust since daigle will do that.......

Luckily players like lindholm, trouba and Maatta make this draft respectable.

022813_dipietro.jpg
 

CraigsList

In Conroy We Trust
Apr 22, 2014
19,205
6,984
USA
1. Trouba
2. Forsberg
3. Lindholm
4. Galchenyuk
5. Murray
6. Rielly
7. Maata
8. Vasilveskiy
9. Girgensons
10. Yakupov
11. Andersen
12. Pouliot
13. Hertl
14. Ceci
15. Terravainen

Definitely no definitive #1.

That's because the #1 will belong to Jankowski :sarcasm:
 

TheLeastOfTheBunch

Franchise Centre
Jun 28, 2007
38,541
305
Toronto
TOI/G is a pretty poor argument, Carlyle just didn't handle Morgan properly. Horachek came in and gave Rielly an expanded role, and he looked like a top pairing dman for a long stretch of games (up until Dion came back).

Hopefully he breaks out under Babcock.
 

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