2012 re-draft

[topshelf15]

I think we made out very good in that draft ,Ceci was a bit of a steal for sure

 

[McBaevid]

Hall and Nugent Hopkins...

It is a unique situation for Yakupov

Hall walked in as the savior of the franchise, RNH was the 1st overall center.

Yakupov was a luxury, he wasnt gifted as much ice time, didn't play with the same level of line mates as Hall and RNH, and was mishandled by the worst head coach in franchise history. Under Krueger and Nelson, Yakupov is/was a very effective player and definitely showed why he was drafted first.

This will be the year that makes or breaks Yakupov imo

 

[Romang67]

Care to actually prove this? I don't disagree with Lindholm, but people keep attaching Trouba to him as if they were on the same level. Lindholm is better and Trouba falls into the same level as Murray, Rielly, Määttä etc. I've seen nothing credible that disproves this theory.

You have ignored arguments in favor of Trouba. If that's what you mean that you haven't seen anything credible, then I guess that's true.

You should know this drill by now. You say that Rielly and Trouba are on the same level, then you rank Rielly ahead of Trouba. People point out that Rielly doesn't have an advantage offensively, while Trouba is on another level defensively. Then we post his ice time, his possession stats, the role he plays for the team, what he has done while being paired with Mark Stuart (a well known anchor) and how he has had a more positive effect on Mark Stuart's advanced stats than prime Chara had.

You then proceed to ignore this. Then you say that there is nothing pointing to Trouba being better than Rielly so far in their careers.

But you know what? I'll give you some examples where Trouba is outperforming Rielly by a wide margin, one more time. I'm in a good mood today.

First of all, you see Trouba's offensive production in his 2nd year and say that Trouba is getting progressively worse by the year. To make this statement based on one season is just amazingly poor form, and I'll tell you why.

Trouba had one of the worst on-ice sh% in the NHL this season. He is extremely likely to bounce back. Rielly had a better on-ice sh%, but his wasn't great either. At this point in time, it appears that they're fairly evenly matched offensively.

Trouba ranks way above Rielly in CF%. Trouba ranks 24 spots above Rielly in CF% RelTM (despite playing for a team where it's harder to rank above people). And Trouba has spent almost all his time with the Jets with a player who historically (read every single season until last season, even the season when he was paired with a prime Chara) has been an awful possession player in Mark Stuart.

"Oh but Romang, surely Stuart can't be such a horrible player away from Trouba! Aren't you exaggerating his negative effect on players and how poorly he performs?"

Nope. Go check the WOWY. Stuart without Trouba is a negative Corsi player again. Trouba without Stuart is just outside of the top 10 in the NHL in CF%.

Trouba also plays on the PK, which Rielly does not. He's clearly trusted more than Myers and Byfuglien by his coach, and those two are damn good players.

But hey, these are only stats. Can't you, Atomos, come up with something that proves that Rielly is equal, or superior to, Trouba? It feels like all you do in these threads is say that Trouba is overrated, that you think Rielly is better, you would never trade Rielly for Trouba, and then you don't present anything substantial to back anything up.

FTR, I have Ehlers and Nylander neck and neck, and haven't seen anything that separates them up to this point.

Trouba and Rielly is a different matter. It's half amusing, half frustrating, when you have the same posters reiterating that Trouba isn't anything special in thread after thread, calling out other posters for "overrating him", and then just ignore it when presented with facts. Then they do the same thing again in the next thread that Trouba is brought up in.

 

[Tripod]

I'm ok with Philly getting:
Laughton
Ghost
Stolarz
Leier

from this draft. None will be stars, but will add good depth.

 

[Atomos2]

You have ignored arguments in favor of Trouba. If that's what you mean that you haven't seen anything credible, then I guess that's true.

You should know this drill by now. You say that Rielly and Trouba are on the same level, then you rank Rielly ahead of Trouba. People point out that Rielly doesn't have an advantage offensively, while Trouba is on another level defensively. Then we post his ice time, his possession stats, the role he plays for the team, what he has done while being paired with Mark Stuart (a well known anchor) and how he has had a more positive effect on Mark Stuart's advanced stats than prime Chara had.

You then proceed to ignore this. Then you say that there is nothing pointing to Trouba being better than Rielly so far in their careers.

But you know what? I'll give you some examples where Trouba is outperforming Rielly by a wide margin, one more time. I'm in a good mood today.

First of all, you see Trouba's offensive production in his 2nd year and say that Trouba is getting progressively worse by the year. To make this statement based on one season is just amazingly poor form, and I'll tell you why.

Trouba had one of the worst on-ice sh% in the NHL this season. He is extremely likely to bounce back. Rielly had a better on-ice sh%, but his wasn't great either. At this point in time, it appears that they're fairly evenly matched offensively.

Trouba ranks way above Rielly in CF%. Trouba ranks 24 spots above Rielly in CF% RelTM (despite playing for a team where it's harder to rank above people). And Trouba has spent almost all his time with the Jets with a player who historically (read every single season until last season, even the season when he was paired with a prime Chara) has been an awful possession player in Mark Stuart.

"Oh but Romang, surely Stuart can't be such a horrible player away from Trouba! Aren't you exaggerating his negative effect on players and how poorly he performs?"

Nope. Go check the WOWY. Stuart without Trouba is a negative Corsi player again. Trouba without Stuart is just outside of the top 10 in the NHL in CF%.

Trouba also plays on the PK, which Rielly does not. He's clearly trusted more than Myers and Byfuglien by his coach, and those two are damn good players.

But hey, these are only stats. Can't you, Atomos, come up with something that proves that Rielly is equal, or superior to, Trouba? It feels like all you do in these threads is say that Trouba is overrated, that you think Rielly is better, you would never trade Rielly for Trouba, and then you don't present anything substantial to back anything up.

FTR, I have Ehlers and Nylander neck and neck, and haven't seen anything that separates them up to this point.

Trouba and Rielly is a different matter. It's half amusing, half frustrating, when you have the same posters reiterating that Trouba isn't anything special in thread after thread, calling out other posters for "overrating him", and then just ignore it when presented with facts. Then they do the same thing again in the next thread that Trouba is brought up in.

Source?

 

[BonMorrison]

If Murray could just stay healthy, I would argue he could go #1. The season where the Jackets made the playoffs, he was absolutely unreal.

 

[KidLine93]

And yet one wonders how other first overall picks performed well on bad teams.

Ice time. not put in a checking role. powerplay time.

Yak lead rookies in scoring under kreuger

 

[KidLine93]

Hall and Nugent Hopkins...

both got ice time and PP time. please explain what you are talking about.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Hall and Nugent Hopkins...

Were given first line minutes

 

[Flair Hay]

Source?

Not quite speechless but close

 

[Atomos2]

Not quite speechless but close

Not at all. I just wanna make sure all the stuff he says is legit before I post what I have. My rebuttal is all ready to post. But I'm not gonna do it til I see his source.

 

[DonskoiDonscored]

Not at all. I just wanna make sure all the stuff he says is legit before I post what I have. My rebuttal is all ready to post. But I'm not gonna do it til I see his source.

Google it. Calling for a source is seen as a cop-out instead of providing a counter argument.

 

[CashMash]

Care to actually prove this? I don't disagree with Lindholm, but people keep attaching Trouba to him as if they were on the same level. Lindholm is better and Trouba falls into the same level as Murray, Rielly, Määttä etc. I've seen nothing credible that disproves this theory.

How is Lindholm that much better than the other guys you mentioned? Määttä (using him as an example since I know him the best), when healthy, has produced at a similar pace and he was already on team Finland in the Olympics and did very well. He has elite Hockey IQ to make up for his average speed.

 

[Arthuros]

How is Lindholm that much better than the other guys you mentioned? Määttä (using him as an example since I know him the best), when healthy, has produced at a similar pace and he was already on team Finland in the Olympics and did very well. He has elite Hockey IQ to make up for his average speed.

I'm fairly certain that Sweden is more reluctant than other countries to use young/rookie defensemen in the Olympics, so I don't think Lindholm being left out means anything. They had Tallinder and Oduya on the roster, for some perspective.

I think Määttä's kinda fallen out of people's memory because he was injured for a big chunk of last season, but I'd say he's pretty close to Trouba and Lindholm.

 

[CashMash]

I'm fairly certain that Sweden is more reluctant than other countries to use young/rookie defensemen in the Olympics, so I don't think Lindholm being left out means anything. They had Tallinder and Oduya on the roster, for some perspective.

I think Määttä's kinda fallen out of people's memory because he was injured for a big chunk of last season, but I'd say he's pretty close to Trouba and Lindholm.

Oh, I didn't mean to use the Olympics to bring Lindholm down at all. I'm just saying Määttä did very well defensively and is very good at many aspects of the game, especially for his age. Pittsburgh will most likely have him beside Letang next season already.

I'd put him and Lindholm at generally the same level, but that's just me.

 

[Atomos2]

You have ignored arguments in favor of Trouba. If that's what you mean that you haven't seen anything credible, then I guess that's true.

You should know this drill by now. You say that Rielly and Trouba are on the same level, then you rank Rielly ahead of Trouba. People point out that Rielly doesn't have an advantage offensively, while Trouba is on another level defensively. Then we post his ice time, his possession stats, the role he plays for the team, what he has done while being paired with Mark Stuart (a well known anchor) and how he has had a more positive effect on Mark Stuart's advanced stats than prime Chara had.

You then proceed to ignore this. Then you say that there is nothing pointing to Trouba being better than Rielly so far in their careers.

But you know what? I'll give you some examples where Trouba is outperforming Rielly by a wide margin, one more time. I'm in a good mood today.

First of all, you see Trouba's offensive production in his 2nd year and say that Trouba is getting progressively worse by the year. To make this statement based on one season is just amazingly poor form, and I'll tell you why.

Trouba had one of the worst on-ice sh% in the NHL this season. He is extremely likely to bounce back. Rielly had a better on-ice sh%, but his wasn't great either. At this point in time, it appears that they're fairly evenly matched offensively.

Trouba ranks way above Rielly in CF%. Trouba ranks 24 spots above Rielly in CF% RelTM (despite playing for a team where it's harder to rank above people). And Trouba has spent almost all his time with the Jets with a player who historically (read every single season until last season, even the season when he was paired with a prime Chara) has been an awful possession player in Mark Stuart.

"Oh but Romang, surely Stuart can't be such a horrible player away from Trouba! Aren't you exaggerating his negative effect on players and how poorly he performs?"

Nope. Go check the WOWY. Stuart without Trouba is a negative Corsi player again. Trouba without Stuart is just outside of the top 10 in the NHL in CF%.

Trouba also plays on the PK, which Rielly does not. He's clearly trusted more than Myers and Byfuglien by his coach, and those two are damn good players.

But hey, these are only stats. Can't you, Atomos, come up with something that proves that Rielly is equal, or superior to, Trouba? It feels like all you do in these threads is say that Trouba is overrated, that you think Rielly is better, you would never trade Rielly for Trouba, and then you don't present anything substantial to back anything up.

FTR, I have Ehlers and Nylander neck and neck, and haven't seen anything that separates them up to this point.

Trouba and Rielly is a different matter. It's half amusing, half frustrating, when you have the same posters reiterating that Trouba isn't anything special in thread after thread, calling out other posters for "overrating him", and then just ignore it when presented with facts. Then they do the same thing again in the next thread that Trouba is brought up in.

First off, Trouba's icetime just shows that he has had an opportunity. Rielly under two different coaches had different icetime between them. Rielly, under Carlyle had bottom pairing minutes while Rielly under Horachek had top 4 and sometimes even #1 dmen minutes.

As for Mark Stuart, everyone on Winnipeg's defense has an above average CF% except for one person Tyler Myers. Gee I wonder why...

Trouba's CF%Rel is nice but that comparison especially when comparing a near the top possession team to a bottom feeding possession team is wildly inconsistent especially among its better players. It has already been stated multiple times in the media that the strategy for the leafs was to allow shots from the outside and limit quality shots. You are using two different statistics and strategies from two different coaches who used Rielly in two different ways and you're trying to combine them both together.

If you want to use Stuart as a reason for why Trouba is better than prime Chara go ahead. I don't know much about Stuart, but if even a prime Chara couldn't make him into a good possession player, than I'm guessing how good the teammate is doesn't have that much of an effect on specifically Stuart's possession numbers. Either that or making Stuart into a better possession player isn't that big of an accomplishment.

I have more but I'll post it when I get back.

 

[Cotton]

You have ignored arguments in favor of Trouba. If that's what you mean that you haven't seen anything credible, then I guess that's true.

You should know this drill by now. You say that Rielly and Trouba are on the same level, then you rank Rielly ahead of Trouba. People point out that Rielly doesn't have an advantage offensively, while Trouba is on another level defensively. Then we post his ice time, his possession stats, the role he plays for the team, what he has done while being paired with Mark Stuart (a well known anchor) and how he has had a more positive effect on Mark Stuart's advanced stats than prime Chara had.

You then proceed to ignore this. Then you say that there is nothing pointing to Trouba being better than Rielly so far in their careers.

But you know what? I'll give you some examples where Trouba is outperforming Rielly by a wide margin, one more time. I'm in a good mood today.

First of all, you see Trouba's offensive production in his 2nd year and say that Trouba is getting progressively worse by the year. To make this statement based on one season is just amazingly poor form, and I'll tell you why.

Trouba had one of the worst on-ice sh% in the NHL this season. He is extremely likely to bounce back. Rielly had a better on-ice sh%, but his wasn't great either. At this point in time, it appears that they're fairly evenly matched offensively.

Trouba ranks way above Rielly in CF%. Trouba ranks 24 spots above Rielly in CF% RelTM (despite playing for a team where it's harder to rank above people). And Trouba has spent almost all his time with the Jets with a player who historically (read every single season until last season, even the season when he was paired with a prime Chara) has been an awful possession player in Mark Stuart.

"Oh but Romang, surely Stuart can't be such a horrible player away from Trouba! Aren't you exaggerating his negative effect on players and how poorly he performs?"

Nope. Go check the WOWY. Stuart without Trouba is a negative Corsi player again. Trouba without Stuart is just outside of the top 10 in the NHL in CF%.

Trouba also plays on the PK, which Rielly does not. He's clearly trusted more than Myers and Byfuglien by his coach, and those two are damn good players.

But hey, these are only stats. Can't you, Atomos, come up with something that proves that Rielly is equal, or superior to, Trouba? It feels like all you do in these threads is say that Trouba is overrated, that you think Rielly is better, you would never trade Rielly for Trouba, and then you don't present anything substantial to back anything up.

FTR, I have Ehlers and Nylander neck and neck, and haven't seen anything that separates them up to this point.

Trouba and Rielly is a different matter. It's half amusing, half frustrating, when you have the same posters reiterating that Trouba isn't anything special in thread after thread, calling out other posters for "overrating him", and then just ignore it when presented with facts. Then they do the same thing again in the next thread that Trouba is brought up in.

First Bold
I seem to recall in that 6 Leafs or 4 Jets thread you going pretty hard with the notion Morrissey was a better prospect then Rielly based on an AHL playoff sample size. Rielly had just finished his rookie NHL season but Morrissey's AHL sample was more then enough for you to make up your mind that he was the better prospect, and would be by far the better goal scorer.

Just saying.

Second Bold
Mens league>Juniors
5'11 190> 5'11 176
Center>Winger
32 AHL pts>101 QMJHL pts

Ehlers was also pegged with the nickname "King Of The Divers" this past year and got something like 4 penalties in a 4 game span for it, he was also tossed in a PO game for verbally abusing the ref. so;

Nylander's character>Ehlers charecter

 

[Crabapple]

Trouba/Lindholm/Rielly all could go #1. Some pretty good d men in an otherwise underwhelming draft class

 

[Rangediddy]

This thread is so funny, everyone knows in just 7 more years, Jankowski is going to be the best player from this draft.

 

[HanSolo]

This thread is so funny, everyone knows in just 7 more years, Jankowski is going to be the best player from this draft.

Obviously.

Oh, I didn't mean to use the Olympics to bring Lindholm down at all. I'm just saying Määttä did very well defensively and is very good at many aspects of the game, especially for his age. Pittsburgh will most likely have him beside Letang next season already.

I'd put him and Lindholm at generally the same level, but that's just me.

I think in terms of the overall package he's a step below Trouba, Lindholm, and Murray. Not a big step. Like a baby step behind. That could easily change. Like even the first week of the season.

Were given first line minutes

both got ice time and PP time. please explain what you are talking about.

So why didn't Yakupov go out there and EARN it? He wasn't an effective player in the games I saw him. A player with star potential relegated to a reduced role should try to make the most out of every second of ice time they get and I just didn't see that with Nail.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Obviously.

I think in terms of the overall package he's a step below Trouba, Lindholm, and Murray. Not a big step. Like a baby step behind. That could easily change. Like even the first week of the season.




So why didn't Yakupov go out there and EARN it? He wasn't an effective player in the games I saw him. A player with star potential relegated to a reduced role should try to make the most out of every second of ice time they get and I just didn't see that with Nail.

Again, unique situation. He was blocked by guys like Hall, Eberle, and RNH (and then they did more weird things like get Perron) but the team was still terrible. Putting him out there with plugs in defensive situations sometimes less than 10 minutes a night is a good way to make a kid fail. Nobody is denying he's disappointed so far but this is a big year before writing him off completely.

 

[HanSolo]

Again, unique situation. He was blocked by guys like Hall, Eberle, and RNH (and then they did more weird things like get Perron) but the team was still terrible. Putting him out there with plugs in defensive situations sometimes less than 10 minutes a night is a good way to make a kid fail. Nobody is denying he's disappointed so far but this is a big year before writing him off completely.

Well I'm not writing him off completely. If my list is a power ranking of sorts, he's lower because of how things have gone and what I've seen out of him. He can certainly rebound.

 

[CashMash]

Obviously.

I think in terms of the overall package he's a step below Trouba, Lindholm, and Murray. Not a big step. Like a baby step behind. That could easily change. Like even the first week of the season.




So why didn't Yakupov go out there and EARN it? He wasn't an effective player in the games I saw him. A player with star potential relegated to a reduced role should try to make the most out of every second of ice time they get and I just didn't see that with Nail.

I'm fine with that. I just think he gets left out of the conversation too much, as I believe he is on par with them at least.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Well I'm not writing him off completely. If my list is a power ranking of sorts, he's lower because of how things have gone and what I've seen out of him. He can certainly rebound.

I don't think anyone is denying he's fallen in the power rankings.

 

[Atomos2]

You then proceed to ignore this. Then you say that there is nothing pointing to Trouba being better than Rielly so far in their careers.

But you know what? I'll give you some examples where Trouba is outperforming Rielly by a wide margin, one more time. I'm in a good mood today.

First of all, you see Trouba's offensive production in his 2nd year and say that Trouba is getting progressively worse by the year. To make this statement based on one season is just amazingly poor form, and I'll tell you why.

Trouba had one of the worst on-ice sh% in the NHL this season. He is extremely likely to bounce back. Rielly had a better on-ice sh%, but his wasn't great either. At this point in time, it appears that they're fairly evenly matched offensively.

Trouba ranks way above Rielly in CF%. Trouba ranks 24 spots above Rielly in CF% RelTM (despite playing for a team where it's harder to rank above people). And Trouba has spent almost all his time with the Jets with a player who historically (read every single season until last season, even the season when he was paired with a prime Chara) has been an awful possession player in Mark Stuart.

"Oh but Romang, surely Stuart can't be such a horrible player away from Trouba! Aren't you exaggerating his negative effect on players and how poorly he performs?"

Nope. Go check the WOWY. Stuart without Trouba is a negative Corsi player again. Trouba without Stuart is just outside of the top 10 in the NHL in CF%.

Trouba also plays on the PK, which Rielly does not. He's clearly trusted more than Myers and Byfuglien by his coach, and those two are damn good players.

But hey, these are only stats. Can't you, Atomos, come up with something that proves that Rielly is equal, or superior to, Trouba? It feels like all you do in these threads is say that Trouba is overrated, that you think Rielly is better, you would never trade Rielly for Trouba, and then you don't present anything substantial to back anything up.

FTR, I have Ehlers and Nylander neck and neck, and haven't seen anything that separates them up to this point.

Trouba and Rielly is a different matter. It's half amusing, half frustrating, when you have the same posters reiterating that Trouba isn't anything special in thread after thread, calling out other posters for "overrating him", and then just ignore it when presented with facts. Then they do the same thing again in the next thread that Trouba is brought up in.

Round two

I'm not ignoring your stats for no good reason. I'm showing how they are irrelevant in this case, then I'm ignoring them.

The poor on-ice sht pct for Trouba is irrelevant considering Rielly was right down near the bottom with him anyway. I will say that Rielly has shown he doesn't need a bomb of a slapshot to score in the league. But it will just add to his arsenal once he develops a decent one.

Once again, PK is more about the opportunity. I could argue, reasons of why Trouba hasn't been given much of an opportunity on the PP are similar reasons to why Rielly hasn't been given much of an opportunity on the PK. They have been designated as certain types of defencemen and have to convince the coach that they have more to give on their respective special teams unit.

Trouba and Rielly are NOT a different matter than Nylander and Ehlers. Trouba has done nothing significant to prove he's better than Rielly. He played on a team with Enstrom, Buff, Bogosian/Myers. Plenty of dman to provide a shutdown role and provide offense when Trouba isn't on his game. Plenty of defencemen that are capable of wearing out the oppositions top forwards. These stats only show me that Trouba did well on a good team and Rielly did as well as can be expected on a horrible team. Nothing else. You keep talking as if the leafs weren't one of the worst possession teams in the league. As if just a year ago, they hadn't broken a record for most shots allowed in a season. And you're posting up corsi stats as if it was even possible for Rielly's stats to be better than Trouba's. But at least we get the comfort in knowing Rielly is waaayyyy better than Myers in that category right? (I'm assuming you got you're info from Stats.HockeyAnalysis.com)

Oh, I didn't mean to use the Olympics to bring Lindholm down at all. I'm just saying Määttä did very well defensively and is very good at many aspects of the game, especially for his age. Pittsburgh will most likely have him beside Letang next season already.

I'd put him and Lindholm at generally the same level, but that's just me.

You can put all of them at the same level tbh. My only beef is with the Trouba Almighty fanboys who think he's in a class of his own.