2011 - Worst Norris Trophy Winner?

[Sens Rule]

The reason this argument is pointless is because Lidstrom, like any other AMAZING player, is looked at as a God. I am from Detroit and I am a huge fan, but the same people who are stating "it shouldn't just be about points" are also saying "hey look at his offensive output". If anyone has actually watched a game (not yelling at others for not doing so) then you can see that he has indeed lost a step.

I can make a great argument that Lidstrom is not even the best defensive player on his own team. There is a guy named Brian Rafalski who is +16 and has 40 points in 51 games. Lidstrom is 0, and has 55 points in 70 games I believe. So for all you statisticians out there, here is some food for thought.

I am not saying Lidstrom should not win the award, I am saying that I think we all need to stop looking a past years and give everyone a FAIR look. It's the same thing with any great player, we look at their past and have this built-in bias toward them. Lidtsrom may very well win his 7th Norris, but there are other guys just as worthy to win it too.

Lidstrom is better than Rafalski defensively. There is no doubt about that. The plus/minus numbers are irrelevant.

 

[Epsilon]

The reason this argument is pointless is because Lidstrom, like any other AMAZING player, is looked at as a God. I am from Detroit and I am a huge fan, but the same people who are stating "it shouldn't just be about points" are also saying "hey look at his offensive output". If anyone has actually watched a game (not yelling at others for not doing so) then you can see that he has indeed lost a step.

I can make a great argument that Lidstrom is not even the best defensive player on his own team. There is a guy named Brian Rafalski who is +16 and has 40 points in 51 games. Lidstrom is 0, and has 55 points in 70 games I believe. So for all you statisticians out there, here is some food for thought.

I am not saying Lidstrom should not win the award, I am saying that I think we all need to stop looking a past years and give everyone a FAIR look. It's the same thing with any great player, we look at their past and have this built-in bias toward them. Lidtsrom may very well win his 7th Norris, but there are other guys just as worthy to win it too.

I really hope that wasn't your idea of a great argument.

With all this discussion lately about how important +/- is, Marek Malik must feel absolutely robbed in the 2003-04 Norris trophy voting.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

The reason this argument is pointless is because Lidstrom, like any other AMAZING player, is looked at as a God. I am from Detroit and I am a huge fan, but the same people who are stating "it shouldn't just be about points" are also saying "hey look at his offensive output". If anyone has actually watched a game (not yelling at others for not doing so) then you can see that he has indeed lost a step.

I can make a great argument that Lidstrom is not even the best defensive player on his own team. There is a guy named Brian Rafalski who is +16 and has 40 points in 51 games. Lidstrom is 0, and has 55 points in 70 games I believe. So for all you statisticians out there, here is some food for thought.

I am not saying Lidstrom should not win the award, I am saying that I think we all need to stop looking a past years and give everyone a FAIR look. It's the same thing with any great player, we look at their past and have this built-in bias toward them. Lidtsrom may very well win his 7th Norris, but there are other guys just as worthy to win it too.

I can not but help think this is a troll. Even a casual viewer of the Wings can tell you Rafalski is far inferior defensively to Lidstrom this year (and any year). Rafalski drives me wild with his giveaways, pinching and poor defensive zone passing. He is a whiz offensively, and does not deserve the Lidstrom-spoiled fan sentiment that he "sucks" defensively, but Rafalski is slightly better than average defensively on most days, ok a lot of the time, and absolutely infuriating on some others.

Lidstrom fluctuates between perfect on most games and "holy crap did Lidstrom just make a mistake" on more games this year than previously.

There really is not a single Wings fan I know (and I blab with fans a lot, online and in person) who thinks Rafalski even approaches Lidstrom defensively this year. It's just LOL funny to think anyone can think otherwise after claiming even only watching a couple Wings games.

 

[nik jr]

You start out with a blatant untruth "+/- does not randomly fluctuate".
Yes, it does. For every player ever. Unless you are prepared to tell me how Lidstrom was +40 in 03 while being a +9 in 01 and a +13 in 02. Please explain to me how Lidstrom's individual overall play made such a striking difference.

+/- fluctuates, and obviously luck is a factor, as it is in almost everything, but it does not randomly fluctuate as you said. GF and GA are not random numbers.

some players are better at keeping play in the offensive zone. some players are better at breaking up attacks. some players are not good at keeping play in the offensive zone. some players control the puck and tempo very well. some players create more GF or fewer GA. teammates and style of play are also obviously very important, and +/- is not really an individual stat.


imo, lidstrom was better in '03 than in '01 or '02, and '03 was probably his best season. was more defensive minded and took fewer chances offensively. DRW were also the highest scoring team in '03, unlike '01 or '02, and lidstrom got more +'s. in '01, lidstrom relied more on PP for points, and murphy was not as good at the end of his career. in '02, DRW were too loose, often winning on talent rather than hard work, and coasted often.
osgood was also not very good in '01. imo, legace was better in '01, and i don't think osgood was dumped entirely b/c hasek was available.

DRW goal differential at ES
'01: +21
'02: +39
'03: +45


lidstrom's +/- since '06 has been higher b/c DRW have combined puck pressure with puck possession. puck support also better. datsyuk and zetterberg are also very important.

rafalski's +/- is better than lidstrom's this season b/c he faces weaker opposition, b/c he moves the puck more quickly out of his zone (partly b/c he is faster) and b/c he is more offensive minded and more involved in offense at ES.

early this season i speculated that playing with stuart, a good defensive player, but who spends too much time in his own end, could be reducing lidstrom's effectiveness. but that was probably not right, since lidstrom was not any better with kronwall or ericsson.

You have consistently denigrated Lidstrom's defensive play this season; not by comparing him to his current peers, but by comparing him to his previous self. As if Lidstrom needs to beat his 35 year-old self in order to justify winning the Norris this year.

you can say it is denigration, but i would say it is an accurate description. i have posted on lidstrom's play throughout the season, about individual games and about the season generally. as far as i know, you have only posted the most general comments that lidstrom has been great defensively, but nothing specific. i don't think i have seen you comment in a GDT at all, or comment about any individual game. i think my assessment is far more accurate and far more consistent with lidstrom's numbers than yours.

i think most of my comments have not compared lidstrom to anyone. it is clear to me that opponents regularly forecheck against lidstrom effectively and create pressure from below the goal line; and that F's too often skate by lidstrom along the boards or across the circles. i have pointed out several times when lidstrom let his man get behind him in the neutral zone, or when he was watching the puck instead of his man, or when he did not take out his man by the net, etc.

i have not seen very many games of other teams this season, which makes comparison to peers more difficult, but lidstrom has not seemed as effective defensively as other top d-men.

No one is denying Lidstrom is not currently one of the best all-time defensively this year, only stating he is still amongst the best in the league currently. You have yet to offer up anyone close to his offensive production who surpasses him defensively.

i don't like that kind of approach to awards. for most d-men, points are highly related to F's, and are not really created by d-men. it is less true of more offensive minded d-men like green.

i think suter and weber have both been better than lidstrom this season. but nashville is a much lower scoring team with far less talent at F. i think chara has been better than lidstrom. chara and weber have more points at ES than lidstrom, but less points on PP.

lidstrom was better last season (49p) than this season (on pace for 65p).

i thought duncan keith could have been a norris finalist in '09, even though he did not have a large number of points (partly b/c he was on 2nd PP). but his level of play was very good.

i thought pronger and lidstrom were better choices for norris finalists last season, even though they had less points. doughty had more PPTOI and a smaller defensive role than pronger or lidstrom.

letang was often mentioned as a norris finalist, but his stats changed much after crosby got injured. i have only seen a few games of pittsburgh, but letang seemed about the same, other than being under pressure more without crosby, and having less time and chances in the offensive zone.

imo, only aspect of lidstrom's play this season that is elite is PP. i don't think that should win a norris.

Lidstrom currently (defensively) is like Gretzky in a 130+ pt season... Not where he was in his prime, but still amongst the best in the league. Sure, it is a big drop off, but when your peak is so high, you have a long way to fall before the rest catch up. Couple that with heading the pack offensively, and I am still waiting to hear whom you think the Norris goes to.

130p is not amongst the best, since very few players have scored 130p, and only time gretzky scored 130p, he won the art ross.

i am not at all sure lidstrom is amongst the best defensively this season, and i would say it is more like a 80p season.

I will remind you, the players recently voted Lidstrom as the 2nd most "tough" defenseman to play against, behind only Chara.

i don't think that is very important, since there is a much larger amount of evidence available.

they voted niedermayer one of the best shutdown d-men last season, but i don't think niedermayer was ever one of the best shutdown d-men. those polls seem mostly based on reputation. niedermayer was not a better shutdown d-man in 2010 than keith, who seems to have got 0 votes, or suter (apparently also 0 votes). i would not have put weber above those 2, or above pronger, but players did.

 

[Seanconn*]

Gretzky may have won the Art Ross with 130 points, but Fedorov won the Hart.

I think this is basically the argument people are using against Lidstrom to win the Norris this year.

I'd love to see Lubo win it, but at the same time, I have a hard time giving him the Norris when Lydman has probably been our best defenseman this year.

I'm pretty damned positive Lidstrom is going to win it this year. If he already had 7, then it might go to someone else. Weber may edge out Lidstrom this year defensively, but point totals have always factored into who wins the Norris... Defensemen are expected to put up points too, not just shut down the other team.

Weber needs to at least crack 50 to be considered, imo.

I'm pretty sure if Lidstrom stays within a point or 2 of Yandle and Visnovsky, the Norris is basically his regardless of +/-. They are going to look at Lidstrom with 6 Norris' and give him number 7. It doesn't tie him with Bobby Orr, but it makes him stand out as the player to win the most Norris trophies since Bobby Orr. It's not like they'd just be giving him the award for just showing up, he's top 3 in scoring. and this will just further solidify him as the best Dman the NHL has seen since Bourque and Orr, which most people believe he is.

it will be very hard for him not to win this year. he'll basically have to go pointless in the last 10 games, imo.

 

[MS]

Lidstrom is still the best PP QB in the NHL by a fair margin. The numbers he's put up there this year are absolutely amazing.

But 5-on-5 and on the PK, he isn't a top-10 defender anymore, and probably not top-20.

If he wins this year, it'll be only because of reputation and point totals, and will be pretty much a joke. I guess he's owed one after being screwed over in 1998, but still.

The best defender in the NHL is Zdeno Chara. He plays the most tough minutes of anyone, does it the best, and is the best 5-on-5/PK defender in the NHL by a mile.

Sadly, because he's only an ordinary PP QB, his numbers don't stack up with those of inferior players and it looks like he'll be ignored.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Weber is the highest producing defenseman Nik Jr brought up, as a better Norris winner. That is stretching it, as Lidstrom is out producing him by a margin of 28%, same as 110 pts over 86 pts. Weber needs to be two levels above Lidstrom, defensively to beat that gap. I believe that is being a little too generous to Weber, who really is not even the best defensively on his own pairing.

Chara is far worse, behind Lidstrom in scoring by 53%. 72 pts to 110 pts.

You basically have to say Lidstrom is average to below average defensively this year. And I don't think you are arguing for that - more like the difference between "great" and "good". The players just voted him #2 defensively, and if you might see him as still Top 10-25 defensively, that's at least "very good" no matter how you slice it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom is better than Rafalski defensively. There is no doubt about that. The plus/minus numbers are irrelevant.

Yeah... To the extent that lidstrom lost a step, it's more that he isn't as good at covering for rafalski, than that rafalski is better than him

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I really hope that wasn't your idea of a great argument.

With all this discussion lately about how important +/- is, Marek Malik must feel absolutely robbed in the 2003-04 Norris trophy voting.

Apparently, rookie Colin white was the beat defenseman on the 2000-01 Devils - after all, he had the best plus-minus!

 

[overpass]

Weber is the highest producing defenseman Nik Jr brought up, as a better Norris winner. That is stretching it, as Lidstrom is out producing him by a margin of 28%, same as 110 pts over 86 pts. Weber needs to be two levels above Lidstrom, defensively to beat that gap. I believe that is being a little too generous to Weber, who really is not even the best defensively on his own pairing.

Chara is far worse, behind Lidstrom in scoring by 53%. 72 pts to 110 pts.

You basically have to say Lidstrom is average to below average defensively this year. And I don't think you are arguing for that - more like the difference between "great" and "good". The players just voted him #2 defensively, and if you might see him as still Top 10-25 defensively, that's at least "very good" no matter how you slice it.

Points are an extremely incomplete measure of defenceman performance. So much of their game goes unmeasured by points, whether in the defensive zone, the offensive zone, transition in both directions, etc. Defenceman points are also very dependent on their role on the power play, their forwards performance in transition, and just plain randomness.

I think you're putting too much stock in "outproducing" in terms of points, especially over small samples like a single season. Defenceman points have all the problems you are pointing out in plus-minus.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom is still the best PP QB in the NHL by a fair margin. The numbers he's put up there this year are absolutely amazing.

But 5-on-5 and on the PK, he isn't a top-10 defender anymore, and probably not top-20.

If he wins this year, it'll be only because of reputation and point totals, and will be pretty much a joke. I guess he's owed one after being screwed over in 1998, but still.

The best defender in the NHL is Zdeno Chara. He plays the most tough minutes of anyone, does it the best, and is the best 5-on-5/PK defender in the NHL by a mile.

Sadly, because he's only an ordinary PP QB, his numbers don't stack up with those of inferior players and it looks like he'll be ignored.

On the other hand, there's a good argument that Lidstrom should have won the Norris that Chara won - Chara won it because he got off to a hot start combined with media fatigue for Lidstrom. So things might end up working out in the end...

I actually do agree that Chara has probably been the best defenseman in the league this year.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Points are an extremely incomplete measure of defenceman performance. So much of their game goes unmeasured by points, whether in the defensive zone, the offensive zone, transition in both directions, etc. Defenceman points are also very dependent on their role on the power play, their forwards performance in transition, and just plain randomness.

I think you're putting too much stock in "outproducing" in terms of points, especially over small samples like a single season. Defenceman points have all the problems you are pointing out in plus-minus.

If Lidstrom was to lose the Norris this year, I would much rather it be Weber or Chara, as they have strong defensive games as compared to Lidstrom's offensive contemporaries - Yandle and Visnovski - but I do not think Chara and especially Weber are on a higher level than Lidstrom, defensively, this year. Certainly not enough of a difference to overcome the significant offensive lead Lidstrom has over them.

The more frustrating thought for me is that Lidstrom has "lost a step" so because Yandle and Visnovsky are "not bad" defensively, they deserve to be over him. I do find that sentiment disingenuous and ignorant.

 

[SwedishFire]

First of al, there's no guarantee of that happening. Second, the Norris trophy is not "MVP for Defensemen".

What is it then?

 

[Epsilon]

What is it then?

It's exactly what it says it is in the award description: "The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

 

[Briere Up There*]

I think Chara's defense is superior to even Lidstrom's this year. But he's been pretty average offensively, sans goals. And the Bruins' PP has been horrible.

I think it would be pretty cool if Nick wins the Norris and then retires. He's lost a noticeable step and I don't think he's too keen on hanging around much longer.

 

[Reds4Life]

Lidstrom said he was going to play until he can no longer be top4 dman on the team.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Lidstrom said he was going to play until he can no longer be top4 dman on the team.

That could be another 3 or 4 years but in the end I think alot depends on the Wings playoff success.

If they win another Cup this year he might hang them up.

IMO, Lidstrom will win the Norris this year as there is no clear cut Dman that is better and it will be a bit of a reputation vote but unless there is a clear cut guy then It's hard to give him his due.

I pretty much agree with RabbinsDuck's last couple of posts on the subject of Lidstrom as well.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This thread started over a month ago and really not much has changed. No one has really stepped up to become a favorite. Visnovsky & Erhoff have pushed their way into the race. With Atlanta fading I don't think Enstrom or Byfuglien are on anyone's list anymore.

Norris aside, how many guys are potential 2nd team all-star contenders for Dmen?

 

[Hardyvan123]

This thread started over a month ago and really not much has changed. No one has really stepped up to become a favorite. Visnovsky & Erhoff have pushed their way into the race. With Atlanta fading I don't think Enstrom or Byfuglien are on anyone's list anymore.

Norris aside, how many guys are potential 2nd team all-star contenders for Dmen?

There is no way that Vishnovsjy or Erhoff win the Norris.

For overall play Erhoff doesn't even make my top 10 this year.

 

[Duke749]

This thread started over a month ago and really not much has changed. No one has really stepped up to become a favorite. Visnovsky & Erhoff have pushed their way into the race. With Atlanta fading I don't think Enstrom or Byfuglien are on anyone's list anymore.

Norris aside, how many guys are potential 2nd team all-star contenders for Dmen?

Byfuglien shouldn't have been on anyone's list anyways

 

[vecens24]

My finalists right now are Lidstrom, Letang, and Chara. Lidstrom probably gets the Norris, which I have no problem with.

The only drawback I have from Letang is that he's 4th on the Pens in SH time. It's nto that he can't do it, it's just that they have Orpik and MIchalek who are both studs on the PK. He's played exceedinly well on the PK when out there. Not to mention they have the #1 PK in the NHL.

 

[Budddy]

On the other hand, there's a good argument that Lidstrom should have won the Norris that Chara won - Chara won it because he got off to a hot start combined with media fatigue for Lidstrom. So things might end up working out in the end...

I actually do agree that Chara has probably been the best defenseman in the league this year.

this. Chara has been best...all around game...players hate playing against him....mean....some offensive game...

 

[Bullwhip Reds*]

I think Lidström is gonna win just because he has won it before. In my book Chara & Weber have been more deserving.

Offensive Stats:
Lidström 72gp, 55pts, +0. This year 34gp, 19pts, -1.
Weber 72gp, 42pts, +11.
Chara 71gp, 36pts, +23.

Defensive Stats:
Lidström 41hits, 84blocks
Weber 193hits, 97blocks
Chara 137hits, 100blocks

I know that stats are just stats, but in my opinion Lidas hasn´t been able to carry his team during injuries and his play has tailed off after that strong start but will win because of old merits.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Lidstrom hasn't won it since 07/08. Chara and Keith won it the last two years. If Lidstrom wins it, it's not because he has won it, it'd be because the obvious alternative candidates aren't having fantastic years either.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My finalists right now are Lidstrom, Letang, and Chara. Lidstrom probably gets the Norris, which I have no problem with.

The only drawback I have from Letang is that he's 4th on the Pens in SH time. It's nto that he can't do it, it's just that they have Orpik and MIchalek who are both studs on the PK. He's played exceedinly well on the PK when out there. Not to mention they have the #1 PK in the NHL.

Since Crosby went down Letang has barely scored at all and been a minus player.

As a Bruins fan, if Chara does win it I would have to consider this the worst season ever for the Norris.