2011 - Worst Norris Trophy Winner?

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not saying that he is better. I was talking in terms of the Norris trophy because people only look at stats including +/-. Rafalski is not weak defensively, he is not amazing but I would say better than Kronwall. Stuart is very solid defensively. Kronwall can throw big hits, but he is out of position a lot.

I have criticized the reliance on stats in Norris voting quite a bit myself, but there there are very few writers so reliant on stats that they would actually vote Rafalski ahead of Lidstrom.

 

[Budddy]

Chara.....

 

[kg14]

Chara and Visnovsky seem to be emerging as a 2 man race in my opinion. Lidstrom can make a more of a push if he raises his +/- but as of right now, I don't see Lidstrom winning above those two simply because of his +/-.

Once again, a stupid argument I know, but the fact that there have only been 2 negative winners in history, doesn't shape up well for Lids. Chara just had a big night tonight and is creeping up the ladder in points. Visnovsky is increasing his +/- as well and I feel that Chara will take the Norris.

 

[TheDanceOfMaternity]

It's probably been brought up a billion times, but do you think Chara is a HOFer? This will be his second norris if he wins, but I don't see him in the same the class as Pronger, Nieds, or Lidstrom. Zubov and Blake maybe.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

We now have the finalists in this dreadful Norris season:

Lidstrom - -2, worst +/- of his own team's 6 Dmen.

Weber - +7, many fans of his own team don't think he was their best Dman.

Chara - only 44 points and the leader of a horrible PP unit.


The leading scorer for Dmen (Visnonsky) not a finalist (and was a +17).
When has that happened before?

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

5 or so years, I think.

But who cares? All three nominees have been better than Visnovsky this season. I'm gonna say Chara takes it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Call it parity or the rise in competition but I doubt we are ever going to see a definitive gap in stats like we did in the past for most players and especially Dmen.

this trend has been going on for quite a while now.

I agree with C is for Choke that Chara takes it with an outside chance that Lidstrom gets it as a swansong from voters (who I do not think put nearly as much time and effort in deciding the winner for the specific season but rather take alot of their voting on the reputation of the players involved IMO)

 

[Seanconn*]

Visnonsky doesn't even get a nomination. WTF

 

[Blades of Glory]

I might be the only one, but I don't even consider Weber the best defenseman on his won team. Though he was spectacular, and by far the best Predator, in this series.

What I said earlier in this thread:

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...7+8+11+12+13+14+15+16+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28

Suter and Weber are defense partners, yet in almost identical ES ice time/game and very similar quality of competition, Suter averages 2.81 GF/60 and 1.51 GA/60, while Weber averages 2.77 GF/60 and a far inferior 2.16 GA/60. Nashville's GA/60 actually decreases to 1.93 when Weber is off the ice, but it rises dramatically to 2.04 when Suter is off the ice. It's hard to argue with these stats. The only thing Weber does better than Suter is score goals. Ryan Suter should be a legitimate contender for the Norris Trophy, but the public will, per usual, get so wrapped up in Weber's big shot that they will look past the better defenseman.

 

[overpass]

I might be the only one, but I don't even consider Weber the best defenseman on his won team. Though he was spectacular, and by far the best Predator, in this series.

It's an interesting observation, but Suter fell out of contention for the Norris when he missed 12 games early in the season. Weber doesn't have to be the best defenceman on his team, he just has to have had the best season.

 

[nik jr]

It's an interesting observation, but Suter fell out of contention for the Norris when he missed 12 games early in the season. Weber doesn't have to be the best defenceman on his team, he just has to have had the best season.

i think only 9 of those games were early in the season, but weber was -10 with 3p in those 12 games without suter.

We now have the finalists in this dreadful Norris season:

Lidstrom - -2, worst +/- of his own team's 6 Dmen.

Weber - +7, many fans of his own team don't think he was their best Dman.

Chara - only 44 points and the leader of a horrible PP unit.


The leading scorer for Dmen (Visnonsky) not a finalist (and was a +17).
When has that happened before?

i posted about that in the thread in the NHL section, but i will post it again here.

gonchar '04, '02
leetch '01
housley '93
coffey '90
coffey '83
howe '80
mcmahon '68
harvey '63
pilote '60

harvey won '60 norris with 27p, 7th among d-men. pilote had 45p in '60. next was stanley with 33p.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Weber is still easily one of the league's very best elite defensemen, dominating both ends of the ice, and will be overlooked if he doesn't win it considering neither Lidstrom nor Chara had a banner year.

 

[seventieslord]

Visnonsky doesn't even get a nomination. WTF

The award is for the best defenseman. He's not better than those three just because he got more points.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It's an interesting observation, but Suter fell out of contention for the Norris when he missed 12 games early in the season. Weber doesn't have to be the best defenceman on his team, he just has to have had the best season.

i think a good case can be made that suter was the better defenseman in the games he did play, and that the extra games that weber played without suter, which were not impressive, doesn't make his season better overall.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The leading scorer for Dmen (Visnonsky) not a finalist (and was a +17).
When has that happened before?
i posted about that in the thread in the NHL section, but i will post it again here.

gonchar '04, '02
leetch '01
housley '93
coffey '90
coffey '83
howe '80
mcmahon '68
harvey '63
pilote '60

harvey won '60 norris with 27p, 7th among d-men. pilote had 45p in '60. next was stanley with 33p.

Gonchar, Leetch, Housley and Coffey (90) were all minuses.

So 1983 was the last time a leading scorer who was a plus player wasn't a finalist.
Coffet was a 2nd team all-star that year, are you sure he wasn't one of the top 3 vote getters?

 

[seventieslord]

Mark Howe was still a winger in the 1980 season, that's why he wasn't a factor in Norris voting.

 

[nik jr]

Gonchar, Leetch, Housley and Coffey (90) were all minuses.

So 1983 was the last time a leading scorer who was a plus player wasn't a finalist.
Coffey was a 2nd team all-star that year, are you sure he wasn't one of the top 3 vote getters?

1982-83
NORRIS: (58-61-54)
1. Rod Langway, Wsh 180 (24-16-12)
2. Mark Howe, Phi 155 (13-24-18)
3. Ray Bourque, Bos 139 (19-11-11)
4. Doug Wilson, Chi 29 (2-4-7)
5. Paul Coffey, Edm 24 (0-6-6)

DEFENSE: (1134/1134) Mark Howe 262; Rod Langway 228; Ray Bourque 218; Paul Coffey 111; Doug Wilson 96; Denis Potvin 38; Mike O’Connell 33; Charlie Huddy 27; Dave Babych 20; Paul Reinhart 19; Larry Robinson 14; Gordie Roberts 10; Borje Salming 10; Phil Housley 8; Mike Milbury 7; Mike Ramsey 6; Barry Beck 5; Craig Hartsburg 4; Reijo Ruotsalainen 3; Tomas Jonsson 3; Brad Park 3; Brian Engblom 3; Dave Langevin 3; Reed Larson 1; Bob Murray 1; Curt Giles 1

Mark Howe was still a winger in the 1980 season, that's why he wasn't a factor in Norris voting.

i thought he spent some time at F in '80. howe was 5th in '80, though.