2011 - Worst Norris Trophy Winner?

begbeee

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Oct 16, 2009
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Visnovsky or Letang would be really weak winners in large picture.
Chara is the best this year, but of course I am biased and his points total made him "bad" in eyes of the mainstream.
 

Nalyd Psycho

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The difference was that in 97, there was a group of elite, proven Norris-level, future HOF defensemen that were still in their prime and had a monopoly on the Norris. Lidstrom was easily the second-best defenseman in the league that year, but probably lost votes because Stevens was more proven and Konstantinov's widely-seen physical ability made him the sexier pick. That was the year that Lidstrom truly elevated himself into the public spotlight as one of the very best defensemen in the league, and began to consistently challenge for the award that had been at the house of Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch, or Paul Coffey every year over the previous decade. Still, in 98, Lidstrom likely finished runner-up solely due to the fact he played on a big-name defense core (even without Konstaninov, it was very talented) while Blake carried a Kings team with only two 60 point scorers and a defense that had Gary Galley as a #2.

So having big name players contending is better than having a winner have a great year?
 

jkrx

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Feb 4, 2010
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There are 9 defenseman +20 or better right now. 15 are +15 or better.

Lidstrom is currently a +1 on one of the 3 best teams in the league.

Cap related to +/-? Sounds like excuse making to me. Lidstrom has been a +40 twice in the Cap era.

This again? Really? I provided a pretty extecive explination in another thread when someone else who hadn't watched the Red Wings a lot this year made the same statement. I showed or explained about ten goals where Lidström were out on the ice and could do nothing because it was mistakes being made by either his partner or a forward. Lidström is up against the very best very often and some of his teammates can't keep up.

So only Lidstrom's teammates make mistakes?

Right, how unfortunate he has to play with those stiffs on the Red Wings.

Maybe you should watch a game or two instead of acting smart when it's pretty obvious you have close to no idea of what you are talking about.

That said, I would vote on Lidström, Chara or Yandle.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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I as a Wings fan think if Lidstrom won it this year, it'd be the result of a weak year for D-men. If you watch Wings games regularly as I do, you'll notice Lidstrom has lost a step or two, finds himself out of position far more often than it used to be the case, his TOI is down and he's turned more and more into a PP specialist basically. He definitely has slowed down contrary to what was said earlier in the thread.

Hockey brains and experience still make him the best D-man for the Wings and one of the best in the league but if he gets the Norris it's a sign of nobody else having stepped up to claim the throne from him. And it's true, I have a hard time naming anyone as the obvious winner over him.
 

jkrx

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Feb 4, 2010
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I as a Wings fan think if Lidstrom won it this year, it'd be the result of a weak year for D-men. If you watch Wings games regularly as I do, you'll notice Lidstrom has lost a step or two, finds himself out of position far more often than it used to be the case, his TOI is down and he's turned more and more into a PP specialist basically. He definitely has slowed down contrary to what was said earlier in the thread.

Hockey brains and experience still make him the best D-man for the Wings and one of the best in the league but if he gets the Norris it's a sign of nobody else having stepped up to claim the throne from him. And it's true, I have a hard time naming anyone as the obvious winner over him.

Of course he is no longer a 27 year old but he still sets the standard for the other defensemen. I doubt you would blame his +/- on Lidström himself, would you?
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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I don't normally look at +/- to be honest. Every goal has a story and usually it doesn't just involve the D-men or specifically one of them. The Wings have been in a bit of an inconsistent up and down since January and none of the forwards have played a consistent good stretch since then either, even strength goals have been hard to come by as of late. Howard's been going from awesome to awful and back as well. All the Wings' +/- look a bit messy this year.
 

jkrx

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Feb 4, 2010
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I don't normally look at +/- to be honest. Every goal has a story and usually it doesn't just involve the D-men or specifically one of them. The Wings have been in a bit of an inconsistent up and down since January and none of the forwards have played a consistent good stretch since then either, even strength goals have been hard to come by as of late. Howard's been going from awesome to awful and back as well. All the Wings' +/- look a bit messy this year.

Good to have a fellow Red Wing to solve that matter.
 

John Flyers Fan

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Feb 27, 2002
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Lidstrom will win the award, because nobody else has had a standout year, and at this point with his reputation he is the default choice.

He certainly doesn't deserve the award this year.

Not in the top 25 among defenseman in ice time

Not in the top 20 among defenseman in even strength points (3rd on his own team)

Worst +/- on his team (amongst defenseman)
 

Dalton

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I'd only consider it weak if Lidstrom won. Otherwise I consider this an opportunity to hear about young players from teams I don't see a lot.

I'm reminded of the surprises in Yzerman's picks for Team Canada's D.

IMHO, FWIW I only see Lidstrom winning if it is true that the current crop of D-men are lame or not yet ready for prime time. I'd also consider that voters are lazy though.
 

Epsilon

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I'd only consider it weak if Lidstrom won. Otherwise I consider this an opportunity to hear about young players from teams I don't see a lot.

I'm reminded of the surprises in Yzerman's picks for Team Canada's D.

IMHO, FWIW I only see Lidstrom winning if it is true that the current crop of D-men are lame or not yet ready for prime time. I'd also consider that voters are lazy though.

I'd like to think this is a joke post but sadly enough that's a mentality that I can imagine is prevalent on HFBoards.

Someone once made a sarcastic comment like "the current weak era for defenseman will be over as soon as Lidstrom retires", which was meant as a joke but I bet a lot of people actually seriously think that.
 

Dalton

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I'd like to think this is a joke post but sadly enough that's a mentality that I can imagine is prevalent on HFBoards.

Someone once made a sarcastic comment like "the current weak era for defenseman will be over as soon as Lidstrom retires", which was meant as a joke but I bet a lot of people actually seriously think that.

He's 40 and not playing his best defensively. It is an indictment of either the voters or the current crop of defenceman if he wins.
 

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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I as a Wings fan think if Lidstrom won it this year, it'd be the result of a weak year for D-men. If you watch Wings games regularly as I do, you'll notice Lidstrom has lost a step or two, finds himself out of position far more often than it used to be the case, his TOI is down and he's turned more and more into a PP specialist basically. He definitely has slowed down contrary to what was said earlier in the thread.

Hockey brains and experience still make him the best D-man for the Wings and one of the best in the league but if he gets the Norris it's a sign of nobody else having stepped up to claim the throne from him. And it's true, I have a hard time naming anyone as the obvious winner over him.

Lidstrom has definitely regressed defensively quite a bit, not that I hold it against him at his age. His offensive contribution has been just as good as any defenceman in the NHL though, and his defensive reputation is still very strong, so he'll probably still win the Norris. I agree that he will win (deservedly) mainly due to the poor quality of defencemen this year.
 

SenzZen

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I can't tell you who'll win the Norris (probably Lidstrom) but I will say that I think Shea Weber is the best in the world at his position.
 

RabbinsDuck

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Feb 1, 2008
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Lidstrom has definitely regressed defensively quite a bit, not that I hold it against him at his age. His offensive contribution has been just as good as any defenceman in the NHL though, and his defensive reputation is still very strong, so he'll probably still win the Norris. I agree that he will win (deservedly) mainly due to the poor quality of defencemen this year.

The only players on a similar level defensively (Chara, Pronger, Keith, Weber, Suter) are just too far behind offensively this season or just having an off year (Keith has really struggled this year in his own end).
 

Dennis Bonvie

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This again? Really? I provided a pretty extecive explination in another thread when someone else who hadn't watched the Red Wings a lot this year made the same statement. I showed or explained about ten goals where Lidström were out on the ice and could do nothing because it was mistakes being made by either his partner or a forward. Lidström is up against the very best very often and some of his teammates can't keep up.



Maybe you should watch a game or two instead of acting smart when it's pretty obvious you have close to no idea of what you are talking about.That said, I would vote on Lidström, Chara or Yandle.

Yes, I'm acting smart.

I've got a feeling I've seen quite a few more games in my time than you have.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Lidstrom will win the award, because nobody else has had a standout year, and at this point with his reputation he is the default choice.

He certainly doesn't deserve the award this year.

Not in the top 25 among defenseman in ice time

Not in the top 20 among defenseman in even strength points (3rd on his own team)

Worst +/- on his team (amongst defenseman)

Well, if it stayed that way and he won the Norris it would certainly make for some interesting "discussions".
 

Blades of Glory

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Feb 12, 2006
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So having big name players contending is better than having a winner have a great year?

I never alluded to that. Having big name players contending only makes the Norris race better as it forces a relative newcomer to have an exceptionally strong season to make a significant run at the Norris over the long-time Norris-level defensemen. For the record, I think Lidstrom deserved the Norris in 98 because he was clearly the best defenseman in the league as opposed to Blake, who probably had the most value of any defenseman to his team. IMO, voters erred by mistaking the award for "most outstanding defenseman" for "most valuable defenseman to his team."
 

RabbinsDuck

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Feb 1, 2008
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Yes, I'm acting smart.

I've got a feeling I've seen quite a few more games in my time than you have.

You obviously have not watched as many Red Wings games, this season.
Wings fans will eat their own as easily as the roughest fan bases. Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Helm are the only players not thrown under the bus at all this year.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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This again? Really? I provided a pretty extecive explination in another thread when someone else who hadn't watched the Red Wings a lot this year made the same statement. I showed or explained about ten goals where Lidström were out on the ice and could do nothing because it was mistakes being made by either his partner or a forward. Lidström is up against the very best very often and some of his teammates can't keep up.



Maybe you should watch a game or two instead of acting smart when it's pretty obvious you have close to no idea of what you are talking about.

That said, I would vote on Lidström, Chara or Yandle.

Plus/Minus isn't a very reliable stat for much of anything.

Guys that cling to it need to watch the game more.

In a game I played on Sunday I was on the ice for 4 goals but had my back turned and was actually leaving for a change.

That' s how telling the stat really is IMO.
 

Blades of Glory

Troll Captain
Feb 12, 2006
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Weber is very good, but he might not be the best defenseman on his own team.

If you ask Nashville fans who the best defenseman on their team is, you would get a consensus answer in favor of Ryan Suter. Shea Weber is not the best defenseman on his own team.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...7+8+11+12+13+14+15+16+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28

Suter and Weber are defense partners, yet in almost identical ES ice time/game and very similar quality of competition, Suter averages 2.81 GF/60 and 1.51 GA/60, while Weber averages 2.77 GF/60 and a far inferior 2.16 GA/60. Nashville's GA/60 actually decreases to 1.93 when Weber is off the ice, but it rises dramatically to 2.04 when Suter is off the ice. It's hard to argue with these stats. The only thing Weber does better than Suter is score goals. Ryan Suter should be a legitimate contender for the Norris Trophy, but the public will, per usual, get so wrapped up in Weber's big shot that they will look past the better defenseman.
 
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FrozenJagrt

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Dec 16, 2009
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You obviously have not watched as many Red Wings games, this season.
Wings fans will eat their own as easily as the roughest fan bases. Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Helm are the only players not thrown under the bus at all this year.

I find it hard to believe that fans of the Red Wings can find all that much to complain about. And as easily as the roughest fan bases? Try being a Leafs fan, we've had nothing good to say about our team for a looooong time.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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You obviously have not watched as many Red Wings games, this season.Wings fans will eat their own as easily as the roughest fan bases. Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Helm are the only players not thrown under the bus at all this year.

This is true. I'd be hard pressed to watch as many games as hard core fans of a particular team. But I'd bet I've watched many more non-Bruins (my team) games than my buddy who says I have no idea what I'm talking about, has non-Wing games.
 

Reasoned Opinion

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May 21, 2009
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Its still early, but as it stands now this season's Norris race is completely wide open becasue no one is having a typical Norris Trophy season thus far.

As of this morning, only three of the top 10 scorers among Dmen has a positive +/-.
Only 10 points seperate the top 10 and no one is having a big offensive season.

If the season ended today, who would you vote for?

If the season ended today, would this be the worst crop of Norris candidates ever? What NHL season would be comparable?

That is problem. The voters, and certainly you it seems, all seem to have forgotten what this award is supposed to be for.

There are some outstanding defensive seasons going on in the NHL this year if you care to actually have a look for them.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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I'd only consider it weak if Lidstrom won. Otherwise I consider this an opportunity to hear about young players from teams I don't see a lot.

I'm reminded of the surprises in Yzerman's picks for Team Canada's D.

IMHO, FWIW I only see Lidstrom winning if it is true that the current crop of D-men are lame or not yet ready for prime time. I'd also consider that voters are lazy though.

Voters (the official ones) are often lazy and make reputation picks and for Dmen they also reward for the past and ignore the young up and comers for at least 1 year or two depending on other circumstances.

Just like ray Bourque getting a 1st team nod in his last NHL season Lidstrom will get his last Norris this year unless someone seriously steps it up in the stretch drive IMO.
 

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