2011 - Worst Norris Trophy Winner?

[RabbinsDuck]

This is true. I'd be hard pressed to watch as many games as hard core fans of a particular team. But I'd bet I've watched many more non-Bruins (my team) games than my buddy who says I have no idea what I'm talking about, has non-Wing games.

Maybe so - I just put a lot of stock in fanbase opinions. I feel confident that Enstrom is far superior to Bufyglien, for example, because almost every Atlanta fan swears by it - or that Suter is just as valuable as Weber, based on Nashville fans overwhelming opinions.

I have seen many posters use Lidstrom's +/- as evidence he is having a bad defensive year, which flies flat into the face of the fans who watch him every game. Lidstrom has been great defensively this year, just not an all-time great like he was only a few years ago. +/- easily fluctuates by 20 points for any player from season to season... And Lidstrom is simply having the [bad] luck of a downswing this season.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Maybe so - I just put a lot of stock in fanbase opinions. I feel confident that Enstrom is far superior to Bufyglien, for example, because almost every Atlanta fan swears by it - or that Suter is just as valuable as Weber, based on Nashville fans overwhelming opinions.

I have seen many posters use Lidstrom's +/- as evidence he is having a bad defensive year, which flies flat into the face of the fans who watch him every game. Lidstrom has been great defensively this year, just not an all-time great like he was only a few years ago. +/- easily fluctuates by 20 points for any player from season to season... And Lidstrom is simply having the [bad] luck of a downswing this season.

Lidstrom has never even been close to a minus season. He also has never averaged this little ice time. Three seasons ago he was a +40.

This isn't just bad luck.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Lidstrom has never even been close to a minus season. He also has never averaged this little ice time. Three seasons ago he was a +40.

This isn't just bad luck.

Watch a game or two please!

 

[JackSlater]

There are some outstanding defensive seasons going on in the NHL this year if you care to actually have a look for them.

Who would you say is having an outstanding defensive season among defencemen?

I have seen many posters use Lidstrom's +/- as evidence he is having a bad defensive year, which flies flat into the face of the fans who watch him every game. Lidstrom has been great defensively this year, just not an all-time great like he was only a few years ago. +/- easily fluctuates by 20 points for any player from season to season... And Lidstrom is simply having the [bad] luck of a downswing this season.

I've watched pretty near every Detroit game this year, and I don't think that Lidstrom has been great defensively this year. Obviously plus minus is overstating this as he has clearly not been bad by any stretch, but his position with that stat relative to the other Detroit defencemen, in addition to Babcock's increased use of Lidstrom in offensive situations, is indicative of something and I do not think that it is just a season long string of bad luck.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Watch a game or two please!

Thanks for the input.

What's this guys number anyway?

 

[Epsilon]

+/- has rarely ever been a determining factor in Norris trophy voting, and yet this year everyone's going nuts over it just because Lidstrom's is relatively low.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Lidstrom has never even been close to a minus season. He also has never averaged this little ice time. Three seasons ago he was a +40.

This isn't just bad luck.

Lidstrom was a +13 in 02 and launched up to a +40 in 03. He was a +9 in 01.
Explain it.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I've watched pretty near every Detroit game this year, and I don't think that Lidstrom has been great defensively this year. Obviously plus minus is overstating this as he has clearly not been bad by any stretch, but his position with that stat relative to the other Detroit defencemen, in addition to Babcock's increased use of Lidstrom in offensive situations, is indicative of something and I do not think that it is just a season long string of bad luck.

I'm not sure I believe you. The simple fact Rafalski is a +14 should tell you something is a little out of whack in Detroit this year.

Lidstrom is the guy on the ice in every single important defensive draw and every single important PK. Yes, he has been phenomenal on the PP this year, but I am not sure that is something that should be held against him - as he is always out there against the other team's best line and playing a defense-first game all season long with 2:46 on the PK per game (on one of the least penalized team's in the league).

He has been great defensively this year, by far the best for the Wings, and still the anchor for the team. I never miss a game - and it is as plain as day for me.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Who would you say is having an outstanding defensive season among defencemen?



I've watched pretty near every Detroit game this year, and I don't think that Lidstrom has been great defensively this year. Obviously plus minus is overstating this as he has clearly not been bad by any stretch, but his position with that stat relative to the other Detroit defencemen, in addition to Babcock's increased use of Lidstrom in offensive situations, is indicative of something and I do not think that it is just a season long string of bad luck.

And if Lidstrom has not been 'great' this year defensively, who has?
Sure - Chara - that's one player. And I have seen him get caught plenty of times with his head up his arse, and even Boston fans complain about it. He is not the skater Lidstrom is.
Who is a "great" defender In the league if Lidstrom is "average" ?

 

[overpass]

I have seen many posters use Lidstrom's +/- as evidence he is having a bad defensive year, which flies flat into the face of the fans who watch him every game. Lidstrom has been great defensively this year, just not an all-time great like he was only a few years ago. +/- easily fluctuates by 20 points for any player from season to season... And Lidstrom is simply having the [bad] luck of a downswing this season.

Plus-minus can certainly vary from season to season. Shot plus-minus varies less because of the larger sample size. Lidstrom's numbers are way down this year

2007-08: +8.9 shot differential per 60 even strength minutes
2008-09: +7.4
2009-10: +6.8
2010-11: +0.1
(Source: behindthenet.ca)

That's unlikely to be bad luck.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Plus-minus can certainly vary from season to season. Shot plus-minus varies less because of the larger sample size. Lidstrom's numbers are way down this year

2007-08: +8.9 shot differential per 60 even strength minutes
2008-09: +7.4
2009-10: +6.8
2010-11: +0.1
(Source: behindthenet.ca)

That's unlikely to be bad luck.

Is it SF or SA that has differed, or both?
And could perhaps Detroit's atrocious goaltending this year have more to do with it than shots?

And as always - are we really placing the fault of a 5-man stat on one player?

From watching the team in the past few years, that is a stat that has been on the decline team-wide --- no matter who is on the ice. Many are blaming McCrimmon, who took over coaching the defense after 08. Steady decline since then.

 

[nik jr]

I can't tell you who'll win the Norris (probably Lidstrom) but I will say that I think Shea Weber is the best in the world at his position.

imo, suter is probably better than weber. better defensively, imo, seems smarter, and a better playmaker.

when suter was injured early this season, nashville's GA increased a lot (more than 1 GA higher than during the rest of the season), GF declined, and weber was not as effective offensively or defensively.

but i do not think BoG is right that consensus among nashville fans is that suter is better. has seemed to me for a long time that there is no consensus.

Maybe so - I just put a lot of stock in fanbase opinions. I feel confident that Enstrom is far superior to Bufyglien, for example, because almost every Atlanta fan swears by it - or that Suter is just as valuable as Weber, based on Nashville fans overwhelming opinions.

I have seen many posters use Lidstrom's +/- as evidence he is having a bad defensive year, which flies flat into the face of the fans who watch him every game. Lidstrom has been great defensively this year, just not an all-time great like he was only a few years ago. +/- easily fluctuates by 20 points for any player from season to season... And Lidstrom is simply having the [bad] luck of a downswing this season.

lidstrom has not been great defensively, and +/- does not randomly fluctuate. he gets pinned in his own end often, is slow to break up attacks, is fairly slow and makes more errors, which create more time in the defensive zone.

lidstrom's +'s are lower b/c his ESTOI is lower (by about 2 minutes per game), and b/c he spends too much time in the defensive zone.

'10: 79 +'s in 82 games (DRW were 22nd in ES goals)
'11: on pace for 70 +'s in 82 games (DRW are 1st in ES goals)


lidstrom's minuses:
'10: 57 in 82 games (25:25)
'09: 52 in 78 games (24:49)
'08: 44 in 76 games (26:43)
'07: 48 in 80 games (27:29)
'06: 59 in 80 games (28:06)
'04: 55 in 81 games (27:39)
'03: 59 in 82 games (29:20)

'11: on pace for 71 in 82 games (23:42)

much higher GA, even though his TOI is much lower.

those numbers are fairly consistent, if adjusted for TOI. better puck possession, especially of datsyuk and zetterberg, are important in '07, '08 and '09. osgood's terrible goaltending increased GA in '09.

imo, main reason lidstrom's GA are higher is that he spends too much time in the defensive zone.

when i 1st posted about lidstrom's higher GA, in december, lidstrom was on pace for 72 ES+SH GA in 82 games. i am surprised it changed so little since then.


shots show the same.

lidstrom's ESSA/60 minutes
'08: 22.2
'09: 25.6
'10: 25.3
'11: 29.6 (worst on team)

 

[RabbinsDuck]

lidstrom has not been great defensively, and +/- does not randomly fluctuate. he gets pinned in his own end often, is slow to break up attacks, is fairly slow and makes more errors, which create more time in the defensive zone.

lidstrom's +'s are lower b/c his ESTOI is lower (by about 2 minutes per game), and b/c he spends too much time in the defensive zone.

'10: 79 +'s in 82 games (DRW were 22nd in ES goals)
'11: on pace for 70 +'s in 82 games (DRW are 1st in ES goals)


lidstrom's minuses:
'10: 57 in 82 games (25:25)
'09: 52 in 78 games (24:49)
'08: 44 in 76 games (26:43)
'07: 48 in 80 games (27:29)
'06: 59 in 80 games (28:06)
'04: 55 in 81 games (27:39)
'03: 59 in 82 games (29:20)

'11: on pace for 71 in 82 games (23:42)

much higher GA, even though his TOI is much lower.

those numbers are fairly consistent, if adjusted for TOI. better puck possession, especially of datsyuk and zetterberg, are important in '07, '08 and '09. osgood's terrible goaltending increased GA in '09.

imo, main reason lidstrom's GA are higher is that he spends too much time in the defensive zone.

when i 1st posted about lidstrom's higher GA, in december, lidstrom was on pace for 72 ES+SH GA in 82 games. i am surprised it changed so little since then.


shots show the same.

lidstrom's ESSA/60 minutes
'08: 22.2
'09: 25.6
'10: 25.3
'11: 29.6 (worst on team)

You start out with a blatant untruth "+/- does not randomly fluctuate".
Yes, it does. For every player ever. Unless you are prepared to tell me how Lidstrom was +40 in 03 while being a +9 in 01 and a +13 in 02. Please explain to me how Lidstrom's individual overall play made such a striking difference.

You have consistently denigrated Lidstrom's defensive play this season; not by comparing him to his current peers, but by comparing him to his previous self. As if Lidstrom needs to beat his 35 year-old self in order to justify winning the Norris this year.

No one is denying Lidstrom is not currently one of the best all-time defensively this year, only stating he is still amongst the best in the league currently. You have yet to offer up anyone close to his offensive production who surpasses him defensively.

Lidstrom currently (defensively) is like Gretzky in a 130+ pt season... Not where he was in his prime, but still amongst the best in the league. Sure, it is a big drop off, but when your peak is so high, you have a long way to fall before the rest catch up. Couple that with heading the pack offensively, and I am still waiting to hear whom you think the Norris goes to.

I will remind you, the players recently voted Lidstrom as the 2nd most "tough" defenseman to play against, behind only Chara.

 

[JackSlater]

I'm not sure I believe you. The simple fact Rafalski is a +14 should tell you something is a little out of whack in Detroit this year.

Rafalski gets easier minutes than Lidstrom and of course plus minus does not perfectly illustrate exactly what happens. That said, I don't really see that Lidstrom has been significantly more valuable than Rafalski up to this point, but who knows I might be lying.

Lidstrom is the guy on the ice in every single important defensive draw and every single important PK. Yes, he has been phenomenal on the PP this year, but I am not sure that is something that should be held against him - as he is always out there against the other team's best line and playing a defense-first game all season long with 2:46 on the PK per game (on one of the least penalized team's in the league).

I'm not holding it against him that he is great on the powerplay, I'm noting that his offensive usage has grown relative to his defensive usage, and it is not as if he has suddenly improved as an offensive player.

He has been great defensively this year, by far the best for the Wings, and still the anchor for the team. I never miss a game - and it is as plain as day for me.

I think that this may be a case of Lidstrom's reputation and Detroit fandom blowing his defensive play out of proportion, which has become increasingly common as Lidstrom's level of play has slowly started slipping. You can't say anything about him that isn't over the top praise seemingly without people complaining, often in large numbers. I do not personally see him playing great defensively this season, and it is not jut a case of bad luck.

And if Lidstrom has not been 'great' this year defensively, who has?
Sure - Chara - that's one player. And I have seen him get caught plenty of times with his head up his arse, and even Boston fans complain about it. He is not the skater Lidstrom is.
Who is a "great" defender In the league if Lidstrom is "average" ?

I like that your attempt at quoting me as calling Lidstrom average when I did not. Anyway, I'm not sure who has had a great season defensively this year... possibly no one has. That's why I was asking that poster who he thinks was having a great year. I'm thinking that Lidstrom is just one of the many #1 defencemen who have been good defensively this year, but none of whom have really been exceptional.

 

[SwedishFire]

Give Shea Weber the well earned Norris, considering leading his team to playoff.
The downside for him, is that everybody follow the points and ****.
What should the fellow do? Score 50 goals?
Lidstrom is coming home with the Norris this season. Because of reputation and leading in points.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Unless you are lapping the field offensively like Paul Coffey, I agree.

Even Coffey did a lot of penalty killing through 3/4s of his career.

It was only at the tail end when he was a shadow of his former self that he became even more of a specialist than he already was..

 

[Epsilon]

Give Shea Weber the well earned Norris, considering leading his team to playoff.
The downside for him, is that everybody follow the points and ****.
What should the fellow do? Score 50 goals?
Lidstrom is coming home with the Norris this season. Because of reputation and leading in points.

First of al, there's no guarantee of that happening. Second, the Norris trophy is not "MVP for Defensemen".

 

[overpass]

You start out with a blatant untruth "+/- does not randomly fluctuate".
Yes, it does. For every player ever. Unless you are prepared to tell me how Lidstrom was +40 in 03 while being a +9 in 01 and a +13 in 02. Please explain to me how Lidstrom's individual overall play made such a striking difference.

You have consistently denigrated Lidstrom's defensive play this season; not by comparing him to his current peers, but by comparing him to his previous self. As if Lidstrom needs to beat his 35 year-old self in order to justify winning the Norris this year.

No one is denying Lidstrom is not currently one of the best all-time defensively this year, only stating he is still amongst the best in the league currently. You have yet to offer up anyone close to his offensive production who surpasses him defensively.

Lidstrom currently (defensively) is like Gretzky in a 130+ pt season... Not where he was in his prime, but still amongst the best in the league. Sure, it is a big drop off, but when your peak is so high, you have a long way to fall before the rest catch up. Couple that with heading the pack offensively, and I am still waiting to hear whom you think the Norris goes to.

I will remind you, the players recently voted Lidstrom as the 2nd most "tough" defenseman to play against, behind only Chara.

If we are still discussing the topic of this thread, Lidstrom at 40 vs Lidstrom at 35 is at least as relevant as discussing who should win the Norris this season.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

First of al, there's no guarantee of that happening. Second, the Norris trophy is not "MVP for Defensemen".

Then why does it prevent defensemen from being MVP?

 

[The Un Ool]

It's a down year for d-men because goal scoring is down League-wide (if that makes any sense)

Lidstrom has been the most consistent and the best point producer. There is no way you can ever call Lidstrom a "worst" of anything.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lidstrom was a +13 in 02 and launched up to a +40 in 03. He was a +9 in 01.
Explain it.

I said he's never been close to a minus.

If you consider +13 or +9 close to a minus, I stand corrected.

 

[Selanne138]

If you ask Nashville fans who the best defenseman on their team is, you would get a consensus answer in favor of Ryan Suter. Shea Weber is not the best defenseman on his own team.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...7+8+11+12+13+14+15+16+21+22+23+24+25+26+27+28

Suter and Weber are defense partners, yet in almost identical ES ice time/game and very similar quality of competition, Suter averages 2.81 GF/60 and 1.51 GA/60, while Weber averages 2.77 GF/60 and a far inferior 2.16 GA/60. Nashville's GA/60 actually decreases to 1.93 when Weber is off the ice, but it rises dramatically to 2.04 when Suter is off the ice. It's hard to argue with these stats. The only thing Weber does better than Suter is score goals. Ryan Suter should be a legitimate contender for the Norris Trophy, but the public will, per usual, get so wrapped up in Weber's big shot that they will look past the better defenseman.

this is a fantastic post, which is obviously why no one responded to it.

Everyone overlooks Suter, and glorifies Weber, because he will be statistically better, points wise, but no one ever gives the credit to the guy who is better at actually playing defense. Im dont watch all of Nsh's games obviously, but ive always thought Suter was the better player, and possibly the most underrated in the NHL.

Sad he will probably never get the recognition he deserves playing alongside Weber, and in a small market.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

this is a fantastic post, which is obviously why no one responded to it.

Everyone overlooks Suter, and glorifies Weber, because he will be statistically better, points wise, but no one ever gives the credit to the guy who is better at actually playing defense. Im dont watch all of Nsh's games obviously, but ive always thought Suter was the better player, and possibly the most underrated in the NHL.

Sad he will probably never get the recognition he deserves playing alongside Weber, and in a small market.

Might we consider Toni Lydman for the Norris?

+29 leads the league for Dmen, top 10 in blocked shots with 149. 120 hits also.

Is he to Visnovsky as Suter is to Weber?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Might we consider Toni Lydman for the Norris?

+29 leads the league for Dmen, top 10 in blocked shots with 149. 120 hits also.

Is he to Visnovsky as Suter is to Weber?

More like Enstrom is to Bufyglien. Weber is definitely very good defensively, but Suter does tend to be the more responsible and conservative one.

 

[kg14]

The reason this argument is pointless is because Lidstrom, like any other AMAZING player, is looked at as a God. I am from Detroit and I am a huge fan, but the same people who are stating "it shouldn't just be about points" are also saying "hey look at his offensive output". If anyone has actually watched a game (not yelling at others for not doing so) then you can see that he has indeed lost a step.

I can make a great argument that Lidstrom is not even the best defensive player on his own team. There is a guy named Brian Rafalski who is +16 and has 40 points in 51 games. Lidstrom is 0, and has 55 points in 70 games I believe. So for all you statisticians out there, here is some food for thought.

I am not saying Lidstrom should not win the award, I am saying that I think we all need to stop looking a past years and give everyone a FAIR look. It's the same thing with any great player, we look at their past and have this built-in bias toward them. Lidtsrom may very well win his 7th Norris, but there are other guys just as worthy to win it too.