2011 - Worst Norris Trophy Winner?

[Dennis Bonvie]

Its still early, but as it stands now this season's Norris race is completely wide open becasue no one is having a typical Norris Trophy season thus far.

As of this morning, only three of the top 10 scorers among Dmen has a positive +/-.
Only 10 points seperate the top 10 and no one is having a big offensive season.

If the season ended today, who would you vote for?

If the season ended today, would this be the worst crop of Norris candidates ever? What NHL season would be comparable?

Click to read more...

 

[triggrman]

I don't know why Weber doesn't get more Norris love. He's just outside of the top 10 in overall points, has scored 11 goals so far, has a decent +- and has 150 hits why playing 25+ minutes a game.

 

[seadawg]

I'd vote for Lidstrom, though Yandle would definitely get a lot of consideration by me.

Byfuglien seemed to be running away with it for a while there.

I think, at this point, Lidstrom and Yandle are both very deserving and I don't think it would be considered the worse Norris Trophy winners ever.

 

[reckoning]

1981-82 maybe? Doug Wilson won the Norris, primarily because of his 39 goals, but his competition was lacking.

Denis Potvin and Barry Beck both missed 20 games while Ray Bourque missed 15. Coffey had even more points than Wilson, but also evident defensive shortcomings. Borje Salming and Brad Park were both on the downside of their careers. Mark Howe had a rare minus season. Robinson, Langway and Engblom all had good seasons, but being on the same team made it difficult for one of them to stand out.

Top 10 scoring defencemen that year: Coffey, Wilson, Hartsburg, Carlyle, Van Boxmeer, Rautakallio, Babych, Bourque, Murphy and Siltanen. Only three HHOFers.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think it would be Lidstrom so far and don't think that the plus/minus is very indicative of any particular Dmans play but more indicative of how the Cap is keeping most teams on an even footing and not allowing any one team to go out in front.

The high plus/minus of the early 70's is a thing of the past and was more indicative of the times than any great defensive play on any players part iMO.

 

[seventieslord]

Lidstrom gets my vote. He's having an incredible season at both ends of the ice. And no it wouldn't just be because this is a weak field of candidates. I wouldn't call his Norris win this year (assuming he wins it) a weak Norris win. There have been worse.

But boy, the expected candidates sure are nowhere to be found. Doughty, Keith, Weber... If you asked me to predict the top-4 prior to the season I'd probably have said them and Pronger. Right now about the only thing I can guarantee (barring injuries, which Lidstrom doesn't get) is that Lidstrom will be a finalist.

 

[Reds4Life]

I think there have been many weaker Norris winners, if there is anything like that at all.

Lidstrom, Yandle, and Enstrom would be my top3 at the moment.

 

[Big Phil]

Someone brought up 1982 before. The 4 all-stars that year were Wilson, Bourque, Coffey and Engblom. Not bad competition, there was better in later years though.

This year it is just looking terrible though. Nothing against Lidstrom but I have seen him play much better than this year, and why not, the guy is ancient now.

But who will be the Norris finalists/all-star defensemen? Lidstrom, Yandle, Big Buff and maybe Letang? Yeah, not very strong.

 

[tony d]

Lidstrom is head and shoulders above everyone else this year but yeah the other 2 finalists would be weak in retrospect.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

'97 was a year like this. Not weak, but the difference between 1st and 8th or so was very minimal, no one ran away with it.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lidstrom is head and shoulders above everyone else this year but yeah the other 2 finalists would be weak in retrospect.

I don't see this at all.

Especially when Datsyuk was out, Lidstrom didn't seem to be able to pick up his team at all. I'd have to consider Letang and Weber as ligit contenders right now. But once again, with Crosby out, Letang has stalled.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think it's nearly as bad as 2003-04 was the worst I remembered.

The year Randy Carlyle won the trophy had to have been pretty weak, though I was a toddler at the time and obviously can't comment from personal experience.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I think it would be Lidstrom so far and don't think that the plus/minus is very indicative of any particular Dmans play but more indicative of how the Cap is keeping most teams on an even footing and not allowing any one team to go out in front.

The high plus/minus of the early 70's is a thing of the past and was more indicative of the times than any great defensive play on any players part iMO.

There are 9 defenseman +20 or better right now. 15 are +15 or better.

Lidstrom is currently a +1 on one of the 3 best teams in the league.

Cap related to +/-? Sounds like excuse making to me. Lidstrom has been a +40 twice in the Cap era.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's definitely a weaker year than last year, when Keith/Doughty had breakout (or career?) seasons, Green put up a ton of points, and Lidstrom and Pronger were excellent as well.

I honestly don't think Lidstrom is much better than he was last year, but he's likely to win the Norris this year, when he wasn't even a finalist last year (though he should have been IMO).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There are 9 defenseman +20 or better right now. 15 are +15 or better.

Lidstrom is currently a +1 on one of the 3 best teams in the league.

Cap related to +/-? Sounds like excuse making to me. Lidstrom has been a +40 twice in the Cap era.

Lidstrom faces the toughest quality of competition of any player in the league, if you believe the statistic that measure it.

I agree that it he's not running away with it like he was earlier in the season, though.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lidstrom faces the toughest quality of competition of any player in the league, if you believe the statistic that measure it.

I agree that it he's not running away with it like he was earlier in the season, though.

This may true, but he goes up against it with 4 other guys that are pretty darn good also. Playing keep away is a good way to play defense and Detroit does that better than anyone.

 

[mindmasher]

Lubomir Visnovsky should be in the conversation too. He's top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC and has the best scoring rate amongst Dmen in that tough minutes group (1.31 pts/60 compared to Lidstrom's 1.04). His zone start is a lot tougher than Lidstroms too (42.2 vs. 47.2) and his Corsi Rel is a monster sized 17.3. That's second in the league amongst D regulars (20+ games, 10+ 5v5 mins).

He's also tied for second in points with Lidstrom: 8-36-44 and has a superior plus minus (+6 vs. +1) on a team with a goal differential that is 26 goals worse than Detroit (-2 vs. +24).

I'd say raw numbers wise Lubomir is far more important to his team than Lidstrom is this season.

 

[Seanconn*]

Lidstrom... He's turning 41 pretty soon. and is still the most dominant D-man in the game... earlier on in the season I think he was on pace for either his best or second best offensive season ever... died down a tad since, but he should end up with around 15 goals... tremendous for a 40 year old D-man, with no signs of slowing down.

this would be Norris win # 7 which would tie him with Harvey for second most Norris's in NHL history behind Bobby Orr's 8 in a row... and I think Lidstrom deserves that recognition, most definitely, unless he falls apart the rest of the season... which for a player as consistent as him.. very unlikely.

Yandle might end up with more points, but since when is the Norris decided purely based on points?

so far this season, in terms of pure Defense... Lidstrom > Yandle

although it definitely helps playing on Detroit

 

[Seanconn*]

Lubomir Visnovsky should be in the conversation too. He's top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC and has the best scoring rate amongst Dmen in that tough minutes group (1.31 pts/60 compared to Lidstrom's 1.04). His zone start is a lot tougher than Lidstroms too (42.2 vs. 47.2) and his Corsi Rel is a monster sized 17.3. That's second in the league amongst D regulars (20+ games, 10+ 5v5 mins).

He's also tied for second in points with Lidstrom: 8-36-44 and has a superior plus minus (+6 vs. +1) on a team with a goal differential that is 26 goals worse than Detroit (-2 vs. +24).

I'd say raw numbers wise Lubomir is far more important to his team than Lidstrom is this season.

A lot of people think Lydman has been out best D-man this season so far though... Vis has been good too, but not as consistent as Lydman (+23 right now, I believe)

 

[nik jr]

I don't see this at all.

Especially when Datsyuk was out, Lidstrom didn't seem to be able to pick up his team at all. I'd have to consider Letang and Weber as legit contenders right now. But once again, with Crosby out, Letang has stalled.

agreed

i don't see anything great about it and don't think he should win the norris.

lidstrom usually has had control of the play, but does not this season. spends too much time in his own end, is slower than ever (which should be expected), less focused defensively (mostly early in the season) and also seems less confident defensively.

DRW as a team are not as good as they used to be and have seemed to me to give inconsistent effort. puck possession not as good, far too many lost pucks on the boards, allowing far too many shots, etc.

imo, a major strength of DRW has been a 1st unit based around lidstrom and datsyuk and/or zetterberg which plays against and outplays the opposition's best players.
but that has not happened much this season.

today's game was probably the best i have seen in many weeks.

It's definitely a weaker year than last year, when Keith/Doughty had breakout (or career?) seasons, Green put up a ton of points, and Lidstrom and Pronger were excellent as well.

I honestly don't think Lidstrom is much better than he was last year, but he's likely to win the Norris this year, when he wasn't even a finalist last year (though he should have been IMO).

imo, lidstrom was better last season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lubomir Visnovsky should be in the conversation too. He's top 10 in Corsi Rel QoC and has the best scoring rate amongst Dmen in that tough minutes group (1.31 pts/60 compared to Lidstrom's 1.04). His zone start is a lot tougher than Lidstroms too (42.2 vs. 47.2) and his Corsi Rel is a monster sized 17.3. That's second in the league amongst D regulars (20+ games, 10+ 5v5 mins).

He's also tied for second in points with Lidstrom: 8-36-44 and has a superior plus minus (+6 vs. +1) on a team with a goal differential that is 26 goals worse than Detroit (-2 vs. +24).

I'd say raw numbers wise Lubomir is far more important to his team than Lidstrom is this season.

I don't thing points per minute is a meaningful statistic, as it penalizes the player who can handle the big minutes. Especially when it comes to defensemen who go up against the best competition from the other team.

Other than that, you made a good case for Vish.

 

[Hardyvan123]

There are 9 defenseman +20 or better right now. 15 are +15 or better.

Lidstrom is currently a +1 on one of the 3 best teams in the league.

Cap related to +/-? Sounds like excuse making to me. Lidstrom has been a +40 twice in the Cap era.

Here are the plus/minus leaders on D this year.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

The 2nd part of my post makes my view on this more complete. There was a larger gap in the best teams and worst teams (and plus minus) in the 70's and the cap, among other reasons has lessened the gap between the best and worst teams , making plus/minus less useful in determining defensive play, if it actually ever served that purpose to begin with. It's more of a team stat anyways IMO.

My view is that with the increased parity and competition in the NHL, that it is harder to stand out and there are not many, if any easy nights any more for the star players in the league than in the more lopsided 70's for instance.

 

[The Sting]

agreed

i don't see anything great about it and don't think he should win the norris.

lidstrom usually has had control of the play, but does not this season. spends too much time in his own end, is slower than ever (which should be expected), less focused defensively (mostly early in the season) and also seems less confident defensively.

DRW as a team are not as good as they used to be and have seemed to me to give inconsistent effort. puck possession not as good, far too many lost pucks on the boards, allowing far too many shots, etc.

imo, a major strength of DRW has been a 1st unit based around lidstrom and datsyuk and/or zetterberg which plays against and outplays the opposition's best players.
but that has not happened much this season.

today's game was probably the best i have seen in many weeks.


imo, lidstrom was better last season.

Nice to see an honest and accurate assessment. He's playing extremely well for 41 but that doesn't mean he's playing well enough to win the Norris. I don't see anything too special about his play this season. Others in similar roles have a better +/- on worse teams. Seems some who trumpet his defensive prowess are overlooking some things this year, instead emphasizing his offense.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Here are the plus/minus leaders on D this year.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

The 2nd part of my post makes my view on this more complete. There was a larger gap in the best teams and worst teams (and plus minus) in the 70's and the cap, among other reasons has lessened the gap between the best and worst teams , making plus/minus less useful in determining defensive play, if it actually ever served that purpose to begin with. It's more of a team stat anyways IMO.

My view is that with the increased parity and competition in the NHL, that it is harder to stand out and there are not many, if any easy nights any more for the star players in the league than in the more lopsided 70's for instance.

I don't understand what the 70's have to do with this thread.

You said the Cap has evened things out. No one here has mentioned the 70's but you. How does this relate?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Lidstrom... He's turning 41 pretty soon. and is still the most dominant D-man in the game... earlier on in the season I think he was on pace for either his best or second best offensive season ever... died down a tad since, but he should end up with around 15 goals... tremendous for a 40 year old D-man, with no signs of slowing down.this would be Norris win # 7 which would tie him with Harvey for second most Norris's in NHL history behind Bobby Orr's 8 in a row... and I think Lidstrom deserves that recognition, most definitely, unless he falls apart the rest of the season... which for a player as consistent as him.. very unlikely.

Yandle might end up with more points, but since when is the Norris decided purely based on points?

so far this season, in terms of pure Defense... Lidstrom > Yandle

although it definitely helps playing on Detroit

I don't think you get any extra credit in the Norris voting for being over 40.