GDT: “Whatever It Takes” (McDavid Injury Documentary) • Friday January 24 • After the Skills Comp • SNET

Satire

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Nov 20, 2016
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So does this mean that he could still have complications arise in the future because they didn't choose surgery?

He will have issues with it at some point guaranteed. It's just a matter of when. It's not uncommon for professional athletes to develop arthritis in stressful areas relative to their sport. Many professional skiers as an example end up with knee replacements before they are 30s.

If he can make it through his career without much complication he made the right decision. You probably don't use your PCL as much in hockey as many other sports. There is also no guarentee that surgery wouldn't have come with it's own pitfalls as well.
 
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McJadeddog

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He will have issues with it at some point guaranteed. It's just a matter of when. It's not uncommon for professional athletes to develop arthritis in stressful areas relative to their sport. Many professional skiers as an example end up with knee replacements before they are 30s.

If he can make it through his career without much complication he made the right decision. You probably don't use your PCL as much in hockey as many other sports. There is also no guarentee that surgery wouldn't have come with it's own pitfalls as well.

That is a good point. I don't want it to seem like I'm saying they made a bad decision, I'm quite sure they made the most well informed decision they knew how to make, that had the lowest risk profile. It just *really* sucks that there is a decent chance that he could have some sort of career-impacting fallout from that dirty sonofabitch's play in a meaningless game at the end of the year. If McDavid has some sort of career-limiting outcome from all this, well, I hope Giordano is remembered for the piece of shit that he is.
 
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Captain Fantastic

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Good on Oilers for spending 4 million on Connors treatment or is that B.S. as well. I would of preferred the team give a more general answer to his injury instead of downplaying it. Athlete or not , his medical condition or history is his business only. As fans, we don't like being misinformed but it was his right to keep it private. Now we know the truth. I just hope there's no long term effects to his career.
 

TheUltimateOiler

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Connor will have a good career. May not be suited for longevity but with the way he skates and makes the high risk plays, we all knew this. I can see him retiring around 33-36. Still a great career. Hopefully I'm wrong though.
 

Barrsy

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May 14, 2017
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I dont know if it was dirty but it most certainly was reckless.
No excuse for that play.
It was beyond stupid. There was no point to it. Game was over/didn't matter & the donkey Gio could have easily have injured his own #1 goalie on the play, just before the playoffs
 
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Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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I made this into a GDT now lol. This is gonna be must see TV for Oilers fans. I know people will be in here doing live commentary when it airs.
 
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ZJuice

pickle juice connoisseur
May 17, 2010
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Connor will have a good career. May not be suited for longevity but with the way he skates and makes the high risk plays, we all knew this. I can see him retiring around 33-36. Still a great career. Hopefully I'm wrong though.
“The way he skates” .. sounds like you look at him in a romantic light. Cool!
 

hitman9172

Registered User
Sep 30, 2006
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I completely tore my PCL (grade 3 tear) sliding into the boards during a beer league game in October and have seen several sports medicine doctors and orthopaedic surgeons to discuss options. The gist of what I’ve learned is this:
  • PCL injuries are very rare because the ligament is twice as strong as the ACL, so it takes tremendous force to tear the PCL. The PCL is located in the back of the knee and PCL injuries happen when there's a massive impact to the front of a bent knee i.e., hitting your knee against the dashboard in a car accident, sliding into the boards, or having someone fall or roll into the front of your shin while running.
  • Fully torn PCLs never heal completely on their own. If you don’t have surgery, you just live without your PCL.
  • Whether you need surgery depends on whether other ligaments were damaged as well and how unstable your knee is. In my situation, the other ligaments and cartilage were OK, and my instability wasn’t too bad, so the doctors recommended I do rehab instead of surgery. I was told that as the knee only bends in one direction, the PCL only provides about 10% of the stability you need to walk/run, so you don't always need surgery. The ACL provides far more stability, so a torn ACL requires surgery basically immediately.
  • Rehab involves a lot of quad and hip exercises. These muscles pull the shin bone (tibia) forward after a torn PCL causes the shin bone to slide backwards.
  • The biggest risk with a torn PCL is it eventually might lead to arthritis (and eventual knee replacement surgery) because of stresses on the knee joints from different load-bearing. Higher risk of arthritis if you also had cartilage damage.
  • PCL surgeries are risky and complicated as it involves going in through the back of the knee and most surgeons rarely do them. Even with surgery, it’s not entirely clear whether you’ll recover properly or avoid arthritis. After PCL surgery, it takes 9-12 months of intensive rehab to return to sports.
  • The pain never really goes away, or at least it takes a long, long time (years). I still feel very sharp pains in the back of my knee during some lateral movements, and my entire knee goes numb for a while if I tweak it.

Rehab’s been pretty gruelling but for me the 2 most nerve-wracking things are: 1) will I ever be able to play hockey and basketball again without pain and 2) will I eventually get arthritis and need a knee replacement?
 
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Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
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The fact that Kneeordano hasn't gotten any comeuppance for this really speaks to us having to get rid of a guy like Khaira for someone with more bite to his game.
 
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McJadeddog

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I completely tore my PCL (grade 3 tear) sliding into the boards during a beer league game in October and have seen several sports medicine doctor and orthopaedic surgeons to discuss options. The gist of what I’ve learned is this:
-PCL injuries are very rare because the ligament is twice as strong as the ACL, so it takes tremendous force to tear the PCL.
-Fully torn PCLs never heal completely on their own. If you don’t have surgery, you just live without your PCL.
-Whether you need surgery depends on whether other ligaments were damaged as well and how unstable your knee is. In my situation, the other ligaments and cartilage were OK, and my instability wasn’t too bad, so the doctors recommended I do rehab instead of surgery.
-Rehab involves a lot of quad and hip exercises. These muscles pull the shin bone (tibia) forward after a torn PCL causes the shin bone to slide backwards.
-the biggest risk with a torn PCL is it eventually might lead to arthritis (and eventual knee replacement surgery) because of stresses on the knee joints from different load-bearing. Higher risk of arthritis if you also had cartilage damage.
-PCL surgeries are risky and complicated as it involves going in through the back of the knee and most surgeons rarely do them. Even with surgery, it’s not entirely clear whether you’ll recover properly or avoid arthritis. After PCL surgery, it takes 9-12 months to return to sports.
-the pain never really goes away, or at least it takes a long, long time (years). I still feel very sharp pains in the back of my knee during some lateral movements, and my entire knee goes numb for a while if I tweak it.

Rehab’s been pretty gruelling but for me the 2 most nerve-wracking things are: 1) will I ever be able to play hockey and basketball again without pain and 2) will I eventually get arthritis and need a knee replacement

Thanks for the explanations. That all seems to relatively align with what other people are saying on here as well. I hoe your knee is feeling better, I'm sure you will play again, as its only been a few months. All the best in your recovery man.

1. I wonder if McDavid is going to have to do special exercises/rehab on his knee for years (potentially forever?) to avoid the shin bone sliding backwards?
2. I'm guessing he still has pain in his knee from time to time as you do, especially considering he is a professional athlete and stresses his knee a lot more than you. I'll be interested in hearing if he says anything about his pain levels in that documentary.
3. Since McDavid also had cartilage damage you gotta think that he is going to have arthritis at some point in the future. Lets just hope that doesn't start in his late 20s, as can happen.

Just a tragic situation, all because of a dirty player in Calgary.
 

McFlyingV

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Thanks for the explanations. That all seems to relatively align with what other people are saying on here as well. I hoe your knee is feeling better, I'm sure you will play again, as its only been a few months. All the best in your recovery man.

1. I wonder if McDavid is going to have to do special exercises/rehab on his knee for years (potentially forever?) to avoid the shin bone sliding backwards?
2. I'm guessing he still has pain in his knee from time to time as you do, especially considering he is a professional athlete and stresses his knee a lot more than you. I'll be interested in hearing if he says anything about his pain levels in that documentary.
3. Since McDavid also had cartilage damage you gotta think that he is going to have arthritis at some point in the future. Lets just hope that doesn't start in his late 20s, as can happen.

Just a tragic situation, all because of a dirty player in Calgary.
I wouldn't necessarily say that he'll need to do special exercises or anything out of the ordinary, but quadriceps strength will be a focus for him going forward although really quad strength should already be a significant portion of any hockey player's training program.

Impossible to say if he still has pain as pain is highly subjective, individualized, and influenced by a number of biopsychosocial factors.

I wouldn't be jumping off the deep end on this arthritis train. Yes, injuries to the knee predispose individuals to osteoarthritis later in life (ACL or meniscus more so than PCL injuries), but to see osteoarthritic changes in an individual's 20's would be extremely rare for an otherwise healthy individual outside of maybe a sport like downhill mogul skiing. They weren't even clear in that clip if they were referring to meniscus when they mentioned "at the back of the knee joint there's a knee joint lining", which could refer to a number of things including the coronary ligaments, the joint capsule, the oblique popliteal ligament, or the meniscus. Lets take a step back and remember that Taylor Hall has had 3 or 4 surgeries already to clean up meniscus damage and he's still skating fine at 28. Maybe Connor will have issues later in life, maybe he won't, but I would be rather surprised if arthritic changes had any impact on derailing his career.
 
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FlameChampion

Registered User
Jul 13, 2011
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I've said in many post game posts, that he seemed very reluctant to engage in any type of contact especially early on in the year. I guess this explains it. Tough kid and amazing willpower. I hope it doesnt impact him long term.
 
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McJadeddog

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Sep 25, 2003
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I wouldn't necessarily say that he'll need to do special exercises or anything out of the ordinary, but quadriceps strength will be a focus for him going forward although really quad strength should already be a significant portion of any hockey player's training program.

Impossible to say if he still has pain as pain is highly subjective, individualized, and influenced by a number of biopsychosocial factors.

I wouldn't be jumping off the deep end on this arthritis train. Yes, injuries to the knee predispose individuals to osteoarthritis later in life (ACL or meniscus more so than PCL injuries), but to see osteoarthritic changes in an individual's 20's would be extremely rare for an otherwise healthy individual outside of maybe a sport like downhill mogul skiing. They weren't even clear in that clip if they were referring to meniscus when they mentioned "at the back of the knee joint there's a knee joint lining", which could refer to a number of things including the coronary ligaments, the joint capsule, the oblique popliteal ligament, or the meniscus. Lets take a step back and remember that Taylor Hall has had 3 or 4 surgeries already to clean up meniscus damage and he's still skating fine at 28. Maybe Connor will have issues later in life, maybe he won't, but I would be rather surprised if arthritic changes had any impact on derailing his career.

Thanks for the further information. Just curious if you are in the medical field, cause it certainly sounds like you are.
 

Satire

Registered User
Nov 20, 2016
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I completely tore my PCL (grade 3 tear) sliding into the boards during a beer league game in October and have seen several sports medicine doctor and orthopaedic surgeons to discuss options. The gist of what I’ve learned is this:
-PCL injuries are very rare because the ligament is twice as strong as the ACL, so it takes tremendous force to tear the PCL.
-Fully torn PCLs never heal completely on their own. If you don’t have surgery, you just live without your PCL.
-Whether you need surgery depends on whether other ligaments were damaged as well and how unstable your knee is. In my situation, the other ligaments and cartilage were OK, and my instability wasn’t too bad, so the doctors recommended I do rehab instead of surgery.
-Rehab involves a lot of quad and hip exercises. These muscles pull the shin bone (tibia) forward after a torn PCL causes the shin bone to slide backwards.
-the biggest risk with a torn PCL is it eventually might lead to arthritis (and eventual knee replacement surgery) because of stresses on the knee joints from different load-bearing. Higher risk of arthritis if you also had cartilage damage.
-PCL surgeries are risky and complicated as it involves going in through the back of the knee and most surgeons rarely do them. Even with surgery, it’s not entirely clear whether you’ll recover properly or avoid arthritis. After PCL surgery, it takes 9-12 months to return to sports.
-the pain never really goes away, or at least it takes a long, long time (years). I still feel very sharp pains in the back of my knee during some lateral movements, and my entire knee goes numb for a while if I tweak it.

Rehab’s been pretty gruelling but for me the 2 most nerve-wracking things are: 1) will I ever be able to play hockey and basketball again without pain and 2) will I eventually get arthritis and need a knee replacement

I wouldn't necessarily say that he'll need to do special exercises or anything out of the ordinary, but quadriceps strength will be a focus for him going forward although really quad strength should already be a significant portion of any hockey player's training program.

Impossible to say if he still has pain as pain is highly subjective, individualized, and influenced by a number of biopsychosocial factors.

I wouldn't be jumping off the deep end on this arthritis train. Yes, injuries to the knee predispose individuals to osteoarthritis later in life (ACL or meniscus more so than PCL injuries), but to see osteoarthritic changes in an individual's 20's would be extremely rare for an otherwise healthy individual outside of maybe a sport like downhill mogul skiing. They weren't even clear in that clip if they were referring to meniscus when they mentioned "at the back of the knee joint there's a knee joint lining", which could refer to a number of things including the coronary ligaments, the joint capsule, the oblique popliteal ligament, or the meniscus. Lets take a step back and remember that Taylor Hall has had 3 or 4 surgeries already to clean up meniscus damage and he's still skating fine at 28. Maybe Connor will have issues later in life, maybe he won't, but I would be rather surprised if arthritic changes had any impact on derailing his career.

This is solid. I spent some time working in MSK and Ortho at the Glenrose and this is pretty consistent with my knowledge as well. I am sure there are others on the board with more extensive experience and more up-to-date knowledge than me, but also like to give a thumbs up to solid information on the board!

Ps - in my post above I mentioned arthritis as a future complication. I want to clarify that I don't mean he will have it within his career, just that at some point he will likely have some issues there. Injuries catch up to us all - some faster than others. As you both mentioned, injury trajectories aren't a linear path by any means. :) Wasn't sure if I articulated that as well as I could.
 
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Aerchon

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
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I said at the time that Giordano play was cheap as ****. Many of us did. Can’t understand the viewpoint of the HF hivemind that it was a good hockey play.

The timing of this is very interesting.

Calgary is looking very bad with the Tkachuk thing. Peter's stuff not exactly great publicity.

At the time I was mad as f*** at Giordano.

It was a hockey play. The kind that happens regularly except...

Giordano was beat so clean and was so out of position there was very very obviously a zero percent chance it would work. He lashes out in desperation and stupidity for sure. It's entirely possible he lashes out intending to take McDavid out to prevent a goal. It's even possible he has intent to injure on that play. He had enough time and is experienced enough that this play simply should not happen.

The league needs to clean up the game and make it safer for its stars. Calgary is at the heart of two large incidents in recent history.

I never thought of Edmonton/Calgary as good and bad but it's hard not to see them as such right now. They are a very unlikable team right now and this McDavid documentary might shine some more lighting that direction.
 

duul

Registered User
Jun 21, 2010
10,462
5,083
This is solid. I spent some time working in MSK and Ortho at the Glenrose and this is pretty consistent with my knowledge as well. I am sure there are others on the board with more extensive experience and more up-to-date knowledge than me, but also like to give a thumbs up to solid information on the board!

Ps - in my post above I mentioned arthritis as a future complication. I want to clarify that I don't mean he will have it within his career, just that at some point he will likely have some issues there. Injuries catch up to us all - some faster than others. As you both mentioned, injury trajectories aren't a linear path by any means. :) Wasn't sure if I articulated that as well as I could.
Good post.

I don't know much about it other than my own experience with PCL restoration, and the cartilage damage coupled with the patella bruising, he said there was a 70-80% chance I develop significant arthritis into my 50's. Pretty unfortunate.
 
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Drivesaitl

Finding Hyman
Oct 8, 2017
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I completely tore my PCL (grade 3 tear) sliding into the boards during a beer league game in October and have seen several sports medicine doctor and orthopaedic surgeons to discuss options. The gist of what I’ve learned is this:
-PCL injuries are very rare because the ligament is twice as strong as the ACL, so it takes tremendous force to tear the PCL.
-Fully torn PCLs never heal completely on their own. If you don’t have surgery, you just live without your PCL.
-Whether you need surgery depends on whether other ligaments were damaged as well and how unstable your knee is. In my situation, the other ligaments and cartilage were OK, and my instability wasn’t too bad, so the doctors recommended I do rehab instead of surgery.
-Rehab involves a lot of quad and hip exercises. These muscles pull the shin bone (tibia) forward after a torn PCL causes the shin bone to slide backwards.
-the biggest risk with a torn PCL is it eventually might lead to arthritis (and eventual knee replacement surgery) because of stresses on the knee joints from different load-bearing. Higher risk of arthritis if you also had cartilage damage.
-PCL surgeries are risky and complicated as it involves going in through the back of the knee and most surgeons rarely do them. Even with surgery, it’s not entirely clear whether you’ll recover properly or avoid arthritis. After PCL surgery, it takes 9-12 months to return to sports.
-the pain never really goes away, or at least it takes a long, long time (years). I still feel very sharp pains in the back of my knee during some lateral movements, and my entire knee goes numb for a while if I tweak it.

Rehab’s been pretty gruelling but for me the 2 most nerve-wracking things are: 1) will I ever be able to play hockey and basketball again without pain and 2) will I eventually get arthritis and need a knee replacement

This is just a laymans view but an experienced one nonetheless. I had extensive knee damage in my left knee in a hockey game age 18. ACL damage, cartilage, meniscus damage. Then totaled my other knee in a work related accident 5yrs later, again similar injuries but this time with PCL damage. I was 23 and both knees were f***ed. Given that I had extensive injuries in both knees (rehabbed both as much as I could and its a lifelong process) it was estimated by Orthopaedic surgeons that I would require knee replacements , both knees, by age 40.

I'm 58. I have had zero knee replacements. X Rays/ct scan reveal a lot of damage in there and of course advancing arthritis. But I still can hike, cycle, workout, train, and can for as long as I want and go far as I want. I've mitigated limitations and arthritis by staying active in non contact sports. In exercise that is as non contact as possible. By all means say goodbye to Basketball, say goodbye to playing hockey. You got one body, that's it, and I wish somebody had told me something like this when I was a kid before I totalled both knees at a young age.

I do knee exercises and rehab almost every day. Couldn't walk without it. But with keeping on top of this I can do anything I want and limit pain, arthritis. While in the past I had occasional bouts of grinding and contact in the joints I've made adjustments to my rehab and haven't had this in years. I can walk or hike about 5miles before discomfort. Leg lifts and leg pulls are very helpful to me, I work out the joints in the gym but also at home using stretch bands. The stretch band workouts particularly seem like a magic elixir cure for arthritis pain.

I'm going out snowshoeing 5 miles this afternoon. I get regular and varied activity. Snowshoeing is fantastic for knee, back or hip injuries. More people should do it.

I think the doctors made the right call in your case. The surgery, especially PCL, can create some damage. I've never had surgery, wish to avoid it, and I lived a good active life without it. Just important to adjust what activities you do. Try not to fight the inclination. I made the mistake of trying to continue to jog. I just refused to adjust in my 20's. But then grew up and accepted I had to make changes in activity. it makes all the difference.
 
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Weitz

Registered User
Sep 23, 2014
2,786
1,162
The timing of this is very interesting.

Calgary is looking very bad with the Tkachuk thing. Peter's stuff not exactly great publicity.

At the time I was mad as **** at Giordano.

It was a hockey play. The kind that happens regularly except...

Giordano was beat so clean and was so out of position there was very very obviously a zero percent chance it would work. He lashes out in desperation and stupidity for sure. It's entirely possible he lashes out intending to take McDavid out to prevent a goal. It's even possible he has intent to injure on that play. He had enough time and is experienced enough that this play simply should not happen.

The league needs to clean up the game and make it safer for its stars. Calgary is at the heart of two large incidents in recent history.

I never thought of Edmonton/Calgary as good and bad but it's hard not to see them as such right now. They are a very unlikable team right now and this McDavid documentary might shine some more lighting that direction.

Lets be honest here, is there anyone outside of Edmonton who thinks what Gio did was dirty? I don't think I have ever seen it called that except by some people here.
 

ujju2

Registered User
Apr 9, 2016
9,657
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Edmonton, AB
Lets be honest here, is there anyone outside of Edmonton who thinks what Gio did was dirty? I don't think I have ever seen it called that except by some people here.

Here's the thing. It's dirty because it was an absolutely unnecessary play in an absolutely meaningless game. But also, even if you can somehow think it was accidental, as some "neutral fans" seem to think, look at Giordano's history of bad trips and knee hits. At some point you have to go, "this guy knows exactly what he's doing." And when the league's biggest star potentially has his entire career cut short because of it, you have to draw the line.
 

SwedishFire

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
5,332
1,863
injured in the last, not meaningful game of last season. Just .... sad. I wish we knew how he is now.

Fastest heal, like... ever - of all humans in the world.
 

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