Speculation: Vancouver - Pittsburgh

[Jacob]

Hoglander is much better than Holloway

Yeah and you guys don't wanna give him up.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I'm pretty damn confident they'd pay a ton for another chance at a cup run, especially with Guentzel's terrific playoff track record.

I'd be pretty confident that they'd do Brisson, Dorofeyev and a 2024 1st for Guentzel.

That would be a pretty good deal, 2 good young players that can step in next season and play in our top 9. Also lower our average age by quite a lot

Vegas and Vancouver are 2 good trading partners, let's see how this ends!

 

[JKG33]

I'm pretty damn confident they'd pay a ton for another chance at a cup run, especially with Guentzel's terrific playoff track record.

I'd be pretty confident that they'd do Brisson, Dorofeyev and a 2024 1st for Guentzel.

I'd be shocked if they moved Brisson, less so but still surprised if they move Dorofeyev. If they can sign Guentzal I could see them moving the 1st plus something, but they're not a team that gives up lots for rentals.

A 2024 1st plus a prospect like Brisson seems like overkill for a rental. Best of luck to ya

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd be shocked if they moved Brisson, less so but still surprised if they move Dorofeyev. If they can sign Guentzal I could see them moving the 1st plus something, but they're not a team that gives up lots for rentals.

A 2024 1st plus a prospect like Brisson seems like overkill for a rental. Best of luck to ya

I think they're far more concerned with winning as many cups as possible over keeping some B and B+ level prospects. Especially considering they don't even have a roster spot for Dorofeyev right now, since he's in the AHL.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Just close this thread. Vancouver fans don't want to give up anything of value for Guentzel.

 

[JKG33]

I think they're far more concerned with winning as many cups as possible over keeping some B and B+ level prospects. Especially considering they don't even have a roster spot for Dorofeyev right now, since he's in the AHL.

We'll see what happens. You seem pretty dead set on getting a 1st and a top prospect, with no regard for what the other team your trading with might actually offer. I've got no horse in this race, I'm out

 

[Empoleon8771]

We'll see what happens. You seem pretty dead set on getting a 1st and a top prospect, with no regard for what the other team your trading with might actually offer. I've got no horse in this race, I'm out

I'm dead set on getting the same value that Vancouver got for Horvat last year, that's it. That was a mid 1st and a very good B level prospect.

A 1st likely around 30th overall, Dorofeyev and Brisson seems about equal to me to 17th overall and Raty. If you put the same value on Brisson as where he was drafted (29th overall), 29th overall and 30th overall have the same value of 15th overall. I also think it's fair to say Raty and Dorofeyev are about equally good prospects too.

 

[Breakers]

Vancouver would be brain dead to trade Willander

they neglected the right shot of their defense for so damn long, always overpaying for absolute TRASH because they had no prospects
look at the what right shot defense always cost in trades
Dreger and Friedman both mentioned the premium simply for handedness of right show defense.

they just traded an extremely high end right shot defense prospect
now they are going to trade their only other one???

thats Jim Benning level of stupidity

 

[JKG33]

I'm dead set on getting the same value that Vancouver got for Horvat last year, that's it. That was a mid 1st and a very good B level prospect.

A 1st likely around 30th overall, Dorofeyev and Brisson seems about equal to me to 17th overall and Raty. If you put the same value on Brisson as where he was drafted (29th overall), 29th overall and 30th overall have the same value of 15th overall. I also think it's fair to say Raty and Dorofeyev are about equally good prospects too.

The problem is you can't look at the 1st in hindsight when judging the value given up. The Isles gave up a pick that was expected to be a mid-late 1st. Vegas' current pick is expected to be a mid-late 1st.

Let's say for the sake of argument Dorofeyev = Raty (I think Dorofeyev is better but whatever). The difference between the expected area of the picks is most certainly not Brisson, who's draft position is fairly irrelevant as he's exceeded expectations.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The problem is you can't look at the 1st in hindsight when judging the value given up. The Isles gave up a pick that was expected to be a mid-late 1st. Vegas' current pick is expected to be a mid-late 1st.

Let's say for the sake of argument Dorofeyev = Raty (I think Dorofeyev is better but whatever). The difference between the expected area of the picks is most certainly not Brisson, who's draft position is fairly irrelevant as he's exceeded expectations.

When the Islanders made that trade, they were 6th in the Metro with a 25-22-6 record. Their 1st was absolutely expected to be a mid round 1st. Vegas right now is 2nd in the pacific with a 33-19-7 record. Their 1st is clearly trending towards a late 1st.

The expectations for the values of that 1st are clearly different. Maybe not to the point of Brisson bridging the gap (I thought Vegas was higher in the standings), but still clearly different.

 

[Peter Griffin]

After watching the game last night, I would do:

Mikheyev+Lekkerimaki+1st
or
Hogland+Lekkerimaki+2nd

for

Guentzel @ 50%
A prospect/young player that's not Yager, Pickering, or Puustinen. Something like Zam Plante.

If they’re confident that they can re-sign Guentzel, I can see the first deal being of some interest for Vancouver. No chance they’ll move both Hog and Lekk though.

But I imagine if they move Lekk+ they’ll be looking for a player that maybe isn’t as good as Guentzel, but comes with more cost certainty.

 

[JKG33]

When the Islanders made that trade, they were 6th in the Metro with a 25-22-6 record. Their 1st was absolutely expected to be a mid round 1st. Vegas right now is 2nd in the pacific with a 33-19-7 record. Their 1st is clearly trending towards a late 1st.

The expectations for the values of that 1st are clearly different. Maybe not to the point of Brisson bridging the gap (I thought Vegas was higher in the standings), but still clearly different.

I think a late 1st + a Dorofeyev level prospect + maybe a small add (a 3rd or meh prospect) is about what you can expect in a trade.

I highly doubt Vegas in particular does that trade unless they find a way to extend Guentzal, but from a team going after a rental that's a pretty fair value trade.

 

[LuLover96]

When we're healthy, Hoglander makes the 4th line dangerous every time they step on the ice, freeing up the top 6 to do their jobs more. Without him there, our 4th line has been a who's who of middling players. Plus, he's looked good in the top six in smaller samples. Not to mention, he's 11th in the NHL in 5v5 goals. I have no appetite to move him because I think our team is better rolling four lines with dangerous players playing at all times. Think the Vegas model

 

[bringbacktheskate604]

If they’re confident that they can re-sign Guentzel, I can see the first deal being of some interest for Vancouver. No chance they’ll move both Hog and Lekk though.

I would do the first deal and is the one I predicted. Lekkerimaki may end up a 40 goal guy and he might be another Euro that can't adjust to the small ice. Either way he's 3+ years away from a player that will an integral core piece. Even if his offense transfers right away the rest of his game will be a work in progress. Jake would be such a good get now and long-term.

 

[Voight]

If I´m Vancouver I ask myself: Makes Guentzel us the top team in the league? Does he give us the best shot at winning the cup this season?

The clear answer should be yes!

I know the Pens are asking for the world for Guentzel but you have to consider that the chance of winning the cup and being able to get a player like Guentzel for a run will probably never be higher than this year. Who cares about picks and prospects when you have the chance to win a cup? Nobody but HF

Debatable. The risk with Guentzel is you don't know how he'll perform sans Crosby. Is he truly a difference maker or does he benefit extremely well from playing with Sid? If a team gives up bluechip prospects and high picks only for Guentzel to be a low end top 6 player/3rd line player, it aint gonna look so good.

 

[The Old Master]

Debatable. The risk with Guentzel is you don't know how he'll perform sans Crosby. Is he truly a difference maker or does he benefit extremely well from playing with Sid? If a team gives up bluechip prospects and high picks only for Guentzel to be a low end top 6 player/3rd line player, it aint gonna look so good.

if you don't have any quality centers then i would be in agreement. could i intrest you in a center (j. carter)

 

[MeinerEiner]

Debatable. The risk with Guentzel is you don't know how he'll perform sans Crosby. Is he truly a difference maker or does he benefit extremely well from playing with Sid? If a team gives up bluechip prospects and high picks only for Guentzel to be a low end top 6 player/3rd line player, it aint gonna look so good.

He meshed well with Malkin, who plays a completely different brand of hockey as Crosby does.

VAN has pretty good centers, so I wouldn’t worry about that.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Debatable. The risk with Guentzel is you don't know how he'll perform sans Crosby. Is he truly a difference maker or does he benefit extremely well from playing with Sid? If a team gives up bluechip prospects and high picks only for Guentzel to be a low end top 6 player/3rd line player, it aint gonna look so good.

Fair concern but honestly Guentzel is low risk if you have a good roster- Guentzel would be really good with any elite player. He’s an exceptional complimentary player. Doesn’t need to carry the puck and puts himself in dangerous spots to make the extra pass and score goals. His game is all IQ and he’s very good at it.

Only way his performance takes a hit is if you ask him to drive his own line. Just doesn’t have the talent to single-handedly dominate shifts.

I think that makes him one of the easier big ticket TDL buys to integrate. Super simple game, doesn’t need the puck, scores his points at the net and in the middle of the ice. Your star doesn’t have to really accommodate him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think a late 1st + a Dorofeyev level prospect + maybe a small add (a 3rd or meh prospect) is about what you can expect in a trade.

I highly doubt Vegas in particular does that trade unless they find a way to extend Guentzal, but from a team going after a rental that's a pretty fair value trade.

That's a lesser return than basically any comparable trades I can think of with a Guentzel caliber player

That kind of return gets you Tyler Toffoli as a rental, not Guentzel. Toffoli was traded for Heineman (mid 2nd rounder from 2020), a late 1st and a 5th as a rental in 2022, and Toffoli is not as good as Guentzel.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I would do the first deal and is the one I predicted. Lekkerimaki may end up a 40 goal guy and he might be another Euro that can't adjust to the small ice. Either way he's 3+ years away from a player that will an integral core piece. Even if his offense transfers right away the rest of his game will be a work in progress. Jake would be such a good get now and long-term.

Yea I think it 100% comes down to whether or not Vancouver has the ability and confidence they can re-sign Guentzel. No chance Pittsburgh gets a prospect or pick the equivalent of Lekkerimaki with Guentzel being strictly a rental.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yea I think it 100% comes down to whether or not Vancouver has the ability and confidence they can re-sign Guentzel. No chance Pittsburgh gets a prospect or pick the equivalent of Lekkerimaki with Guentzel being strictly a rental.

Yeah and this is exactly the issue here. It's really difficult to come up with a "fair" rental Guentzel to Vancouver trade because Vancouver doesn't have their 1st this year or prospects they'd be willing to trade for a rental that match what other teams would be willing to move. The best they could offer is probably Hoglander and a 2025 1st, but I think that would be beat by Vegas offering something like Brisson and a 2024 1st.

If they still had their 2024 1st, I think Hoglander and a 2024 1st can compete with any offer that a team like Vegas or Carolina could offer. It's just that they don't have their 2024 1st anymore due to the Lindholm trade. With it being a 2025 1st, they probably need to throw on something else pretty decent (maybe a prospect like Raty?) on top of Hoglander and the 2025 1st to compete with what other teams would be offering IMO.

 

[Gurglesons]

Debatable. The risk with Guentzel is you don't know how he'll perform sans Crosby. Is he truly a difference maker or does he benefit extremely well from playing with Sid? If a team gives up bluechip prospects and high picks only for Guentzel to be a low end top 6 player/3rd line player, it aint gonna look so good.

Seems like a ridiculous concept for a player that put up his best season with a center that was not Crosby prior to this year.

Also, isn't Jake Guentzel being brought in to play with Elias Pettersson?

 

[SomeDude]

I love that since 2005 on HFboards any Penguins player is not good because their stats are inflated from playing with/around/in the aura of Crosby. Also, the Pens should pay up for crappy players because they will clearly put up good numbers from playing with/around/in the aura of Crosby. But don’t forget, Crosby is overrated.

 

[Gurglesons]

I love that since 2005 on HFboards any Penguins player is not good because their stats are inflated from playing with/around/in the aura of Crosby. Also, the Pens should pay up for crappy players because they will clearly put up good numbers from playing with/around/in the aura of Crosby. But don’t forget, Crosby is overrated.

I like how EP40 is a better player than Sidney Crosby at this point in his career from a production standpoint, but somehow moving to play with him will be a huge risk for Jake.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Yeah and this is exactly the issue here. It's really difficult to come up with a "fair" rental Guentzel to Vancouver trade because Vancouver doesn't have their 1st this year or prospects they'd be willing to trade for a rental that match what other teams would be willing to move. The best they could offer is probably Hoglander and a 2025 1st, but I think that would be beat by Vegas offering something like Brisson and a 2024 1st.

If they still had their 2024 1st, I think Hoglander and a 2024 1st can compete with any offer that a team like Vegas or Carolina could offer. It's just that they don't have their 2024 1st anymore due to the Lindholm trade. With it being a 2025 1st, they probably need to throw on something else pretty decent (maybe a prospect like Raty?) on top of Hoglander and the 2025 1st to compete with what other teams would be offering IMO.

I’d value Hoglander at the level of 2024 1st quite easily. I think you’re in for a surprise if you feel a strictly rental of Guentzel is going to bring back the equivalent of two 1sts.