Ryder71
Registered User
- Nov 24, 2017
- 23,231
- 11,213
I’d want Strome with Maroon. I’d do Sheary with a 2nd. Not the 1st though.
I don't like Strome, he has too many uneven efforts. I don't trust his work ethic.
I’d want Strome with Maroon. I’d do Sheary with a 2nd. Not the 1st though.
He was at a new club to start then got injured and had a crap coach. When Sully took over Bonino had 23 points in 35 games.
He put up 29 points in 63 games. That's a 37pt pace - which incidentally is what he put up in 16/17. If that's not "effective" for a #3C then you have some incredibly unrealistic expectations for that position in general.
Meh... that was when HBK blew up. Kessel also had 42 pts in 52 games when Sullivan took over. We spent the next year trying to replicate that and it never happened.
So while you're touting all these run of the mill 3c's, I set the bar higher. And until the deadline comes and goes I'll hold out a modicum of hope that we could acquire such a player. And if it doesn't happen then I'll expect a short playoff run and hope we regroup for next season.
Be prepared to be disappointed then
Rip is mentioning these centres because that’s reality. He, me, you, we all want a great 3C. JR’s been trying for 6-7 months. He got Sheahan because we couldn’t hold on any longer with our centre depth.
Well, the reality is that we don't conclusively know if or what JR is able to pull off. We got Shultz for a 3rd rounder. Daley for Scuderi. And if you look at Sheahan he came rather cheaply and has played well. So, while it does look problematic and highly unlikely, it's not completely out of the question. Because, and as I said, Sheahan simply isn't good enough in that role (3C) come playoff time.
Furthermore I don't think those expectations or more accurately my hopes, are any more unrealistic than trying to go for a threepeat. And yet we all hold out hope for that.
Well, the reality is that we don't know if or what JR is able to pull off.
Yeah for sure. Bonino is a good 3C. Good history of production in both regular season and playoffs (outside of Pitt) Smart, can play with talent, goes to the net, good defensively, scores goals (clutch ones too).
I’m not sure why we are talking about him anymore let’s move on.
No you don't.So while you're touting all these run of the mill 3c's, I set the bar higher.
Here's what you're not understanding and it's something that I've been very consistent on. I don't want a ''typical'' 3c.
Not great examples we brought in two struggling players and it benefited the other team to do the trade (that’s an important factor). Schultz was on a big decline and was having his worst season and Edmonton did not want to re sign him.
Daley was also having a bad season and Chicago needed a bit of cap relief to fit another player in their line up.
Do you want to bring in a comparable centre in a similar situation (awful year, declining rapidly) and take that risk? It sounds the opposite of what you want.
Glad we established that.
Because I wanted to establish the baseline. If player A is putting up the same stats as player B and not getting the same advantages player A had (#1 winger, etc)... why is player A "okay" and player B "sub par" ?? And if player B is putting up better stats then player C (who's considered "ideal")... and similar stats to player D (who's also considered "ideal") while again not getting the same advantages they are... why does player B not get the same credit?
No you don't.
Sorry, let me re-phrase that. You only think you do. At least based on their actual numbers and the names you've given us.
Then why do you want Bjugstad, Bozak or Pageau? Brassard I get - he's a #2C. But the rest? Based on their actual numbers and not one's opinion, they've very very similar to Sheahan.
Here's the following players and their ES production (or pace if they missed significant time) and zone starts:
Bonino 2015/16: 8g, 34pt pace, 45.1%
Bonino 2016/17: 11g, 25pt, 43%
Bjugstad 17/18: 17g, 33pt pace, 47.3% (playing as a winger)
Bjugstad 15/16: 11g, 23pt pace, 44.7% (playing as a center)
Pageau 2016/17: 12g, 31pt, 42.8%
Pageau 2017/18: 10g, 27pt pace, 40.7%
Bozak 2016/17: 11g, 37pt, 52.6%
Bozak 2017/18: 13g, 33.5pt pace, 57.8%
Average of ^^: 11.6g, 30.3 points, 46.75%
Sheahan 17/18: 9g, 30.5pt pace, 33.5%
Plekanec 17/18: 8g, 31.2pt pace, 42.1%
There's only three outliers in that list. Sheahan with his 33.5% zone starts while putting up similar numbers to those above, Bozak with a 37 ES pt season while getting 57.8% zone starts and Bjugstad and his 17 goal pace while playing as a winger. Everything else is basically the same. But Sheahan sucks and is subpar while the rest are ideal and amazing.
You can cry to the heavens that Sheahan "isn't good enough"... but based on the very names you've provided... the ONLY difference is 2.6 goals over 82 games while getting 16.25% better zone starts. That's it. Everything else is the ****ing same - other than their last names. But one is a "low end 3C" and the rest are "good gets" and "not typical 3Cs".
Edit. I added Plekanec to the above list.
So while you're touting all these run of the mill 3c's, I set the bar higher. And until the deadline comes and goes I'll hold out a modicum of hope that we could acquire such a player. And if it doesn't happen then I'll expect a short playoff run and hope we regroup for next season.
We won the cup last year with a 3C doing .33 ppg. That's about average for what a cup winning 3C does. As such, I don't see why an average 3C is the herald of a short cup run.
Also, given that Bonino had at least sporadic top 6 scoring ability, but never put up a good clip when a defensive 3C, I'm not sure that getting a hyper talented 3C is going to yield the results people expect. Karlsson at Vegas is another example of role dictating scoring.
Edit: Bozak is only 3 goals and an assist ahead of sheahan at ES. And he's unlikely to be in much of a position to post many PP points here.
Sheahan doesn't suck, but he shouldn't be our 3c. In addition you excluded Brassard from my list, why? Because he didn't fit your narrative, and when you exclude a player like that then you're moving the goalposts and presenting an uneven argument.
You should be better than that. Beyond that in every case the players I selected had better goal totals. In addition you're not looking at their total production because you know your argument wouldn't hold water. Look at their total production.
Again you're cherry picking the stats you like and excluding others. Bozak had 55 points last year. Do the numbers properly then get back to me. There's a reason why players like Bozak would get more offensive zone starts, it's because the coach knows he's a more offensively gifted player.
Bozak 44 GP 8g 16a 24 points
Bozak 78 GP 18g 37a 55 points
Sheahan 43GP 4g 10a 14 points
Sheahan 80GP 2g 11a 13 points
Here's their totals for the last two seasons. To act as if these two players are close in offensive acumen is a joke!
I'll add the other three
Brassard 42GP 12g 16a 28 points
Brassard 81GP 14g 25a 39point
Pageau 42GP 6g 9a 15 points
Pageau 82GP 12g 21a 33points
Bjugstad 42GP 9g 11a 20 points
Bjugstad
Brassard
Bozak
Nelson
Pageau
Gagner
RNH
Anyone else? Regardless of whether they're realistic?
And yet he's still ahead of Sheahan isn't he? Why do we have to minimize Bozak? Also can we be sure he wouldn't get PP time? That's conjecture and as great as our PP is, three quarters of the time they fail which means that the 2hd unit often gets a look. Beyond that Bozak is the better talent. Again if you look at the totality of the the players respective skillset it's not even remotely close if you're being honest about it.
Yeah Kessel played with him, and?
And yet he's still ahead of Sheahan isn't he? Why do we have to minimize Bozak? Also can we be sure he wouldn't get PP time? That's conjecture and as great as our PP is, three quarters of the time they fail which means that the 2hd unit often gets a look. Beyond that Bozak is the better talent. Again if you look at the totality of the the players respective skillset it's not even remotely close if you're being honest about it.
Bjugstad
Brassard
Bozak
Nelson
Pageau
Gagner
RNH
Anyone else? Regardless of whether they're realistic?
Interesting that when you bring up last year's numbers, you don't bring up Bjugstads... At least I was honest enough with myself to overlook that. But then I guess a player who was only on pace to score 21 points doesn't fit your nartative does it?
Also... why do we care what Sheahan did in Detroit on a different team in a different role? The important thing is what he's actually doing here in Pittsburgh. But again, that doesn't fit your narrative. The numbers say otherwise, but of course those need to be dismissed. It's rather sad.
Interesting that when you bring up last year's numbers, you don't bring up Bjugstads... At least I was honest enough with myself to overlook that. But then I guess a player who was only on pace to score 21 points doesn't fit your nartative does it?
Also... why do we care what Sheahan did in Detroit on a different team in a different role? The important thing is what he's actually doing here in Pittsburgh. But again, that doesn't fit your narrative. The numbers say otherwise, but of course those need to be dismissed. It's rather sad.
And the zone starts thing is pretty important, because unless we somehow get so hot that there's plenty of offensive zone starts for the top three lines, someone's still got to take defensive draws. Either 3C has to score their points with largely defensive starts... or they get good starts, but Crosby pays the price. And I'm not really fond of that idea. Would Bozak still get 35ish ES points with 60% defensive starts? Not a lot of players do that I'm aware of. Kadri managed it last season, but he's on pace for 30 at the moment.
Is Bozak flat out the better talent? Dunno. The fact Sheahan can be trusted in his own zone and Bozak can't is a pretty big deal, maybe enough to outweigh the difference in offence.
This isn't me being down on Bozak or trying to minimise him either. Just looking at him as an example and measuring stick of 3C ES play and seeing where Sheahan measures up.
See, that's an unbalanced argument, if you're gonna use the players last couple of years I cited, you have to do the same for Sheahan. And Sheahan has 6 goals over his last 123 games. No matter how to try to manipulate the criteria, not one player I mentioned is even close to that level of futility.