Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Nine Mile Skid on a Ten Mile Ride

[Empoleon8771]

We're not gonna cherry pick stats, this year 43 games, 14 points, a 27 point pace.

Again, why does it matter what Sheahan did before coming to Pittsburgh? That's not cherrypicking stats, it's realizing that 100% of what he did in Detroit is completely irrelevant to how he has done in Pittsburgh. It's not cherrypicking stats to say he has a 33 point pace in Pittsburgh. What he did before that doesn't matter. Cherrypicking stats is saying "Sheahan has a 40 point pace in his last 15 games, therefore he's a 40 point player and a fringe 2C/3C".

Hey, if you're gonna do that why not just compartmentalize his stats to his last game. He scored a goal, so then you can assert he's on pace for 82 goals a season!

If you really think that's the same, I seriously question your ability to actually have legitimate conversations here.

There’s a difference between Sheahan producing at a 3C rate, which he is, and being a guy who can exploit Kessel’s skillset on a third line.

No reason to dump on Sheahan. He’s in a position to succeed now on the 4th line.

We want a low end 2C as our 3C and a guy who can score as our 4C. Guentzel working out at 3C or a trade is all we need there.

I’d like to see Benoit Pouliot flank Malkin if Kane isn’t in the cards as our other move.

That's just not going to happen. Someone who can use Kessel on the 3rd line is why I think Plekanec would be a good fit here, but Plekanec being a good fit here and Sheahan doing well in the 3C role here so far are 2 completely independent things. You can simultaneously say that Sheahan has been a good 3C here while also saying you want someone who can fit with Kessel on the 3rd line.

 

[Tom Hanks]

And he's on pace for 33 points in Pittsburgh, which is clearly 3C numbers. Why does it matter at all what he did before he came to Pittsburgh when he has been very effective in Pittsburgh? His 8 games in Detroit at the start of this season are completely irrelevant from what he has done in Pittsburgh.



I don't disagree with this, hence why I've been bringing up Plekanec recently. My point was that the completely unrealistic expectations for the 3C spot here are probably a big reason why that people do whatever they can to diminish what Sheahan has done, he has completely played at a 3C caliber in Pittsburgh so far.

I want to add Plekanec because:

A. Plekanec seems like he'd be a good fit with Kessel, since he has strong playmaking talent and was somewhat recently an effective top-6 center.
B. Plekanec brings everything you want your 3C to have in terms of defensive play, PKing and whatnot.
C. It pushes Sheahan to the 4th line, which helps the 4th line dramatically.
D. Plekanec won't cost anything prohibitive to acquire, Cole out and Plekanec in is very reasonable to suggest.
E. Plekanec could be re-signed as a short stop gap option for much cheaper than his current cap hit, which would give the Penguins a great center group for next year too.

Yeah good points about Plekanec. I’d try to bring him in now. Jake can go back to the wing and we don’t have to see Rowney at centre again. We can still try to do better but that seems unrealistic at this stage.

If we make a move now we can really concentrate on getting that physical LW we are lacking.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I agree he should be left there. That's why I want to bring in another player for the 3c role. I've been saying this since I got here. But I disagree, I want someone better and who can score more than six goals in the last 123 games.

Someone different around the same level is fine. It’s realistic too.

 

[Ryder71]

If you really think that's the same, I seriously question your ability to actually have legitimate conversations here.

I think you're cherry picking his pittsburgh stats. Why can't we look at the entire season? This isn't some pie in the sky theory here, he has 14 points in 43 games. Why can't you accept it, because it's true.

When we look at other players we compare their stats with other teams, why should this be any different?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah good points about Plekanec. I’d try to bring him in now. Jake can go back to the wing and we don’t have to see Rowney at centre again. We can still try to do better but that seems unrealistic at this stage.

If we make a move now we can really concentrate on getting that physical LW we are lacking.

I agree it's not realistic to do better than that, because I do believe that no one is interested in helping out the Penguins for the assets the Penguins would want to give. I also think Plekanec is being a little underrated on here, he's a pretty good 3rd line center. I'd actually even say he's better than Sheahan, although it's not by a ridiculous amount. Plekanec's issue is that he's 35 and a UFA after the year. If you can re-sign him, even for just 1 year, that makes him a lot more attractive for other people here I think.

The Penguins just don't have what it takes to get guys like Brassard or RNH, and I doubt the Senators would trade Pageau to the Penguins when they could probably do better elsewhere. I'm not even to go the "why would other teams help the Penguins?" angle, I think the big factor is why do other teams want what the Penguins would be offering?

I think you're cherry picking his pittsburgh stats. Why can't we look at the entire season? This isn't some pie in the sky theory here, he has 14 points in 43 games. Why can't you accept it, because it's true.

I have said this numerous times. If we're judging him based on how he has done in Pittsburgh, literally everything before he got traded to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. He has definitely played at a 3C caliber so far in Pittsburgh. Him not getting a point in 8 games while getting 4 minutes a night in Detroit is completely irrelevant from what he has done in Pittsburgh so far. I have said this like 3 times now.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Yeah good points about Plekanec. I’d try to bring him in now. Jake can go back to the wing and we don’t have to see Rowney at centre again. We can still try to do better but that seems unrealistic at this stage.

If we make a move now we can really concentrate on getting that physical LW we are lacking.

All depends what the price is for Plekanec, I watched a lot of him being in Montreal and the guy does disappear when it gets nasty (playoffs)
He has some abilities, I think he is better all around than Sheanan but at the same time I wouldn't be sending the Habs a big price to get him

 

[Shady Machine]

Those 4 goals should also be put in context:

1. Empty net
2. Major goalie gaffe led to half open net
3. One-timer on a nearly empty net (great overall play/execution, but most of the work was done before a shot was even taken).
4. His latest goal.

The 2-goal "anomaly" from last season looks less and less like an anomaly. Anyway, my criteria for 3C was defensively responsible and 30-point pace. He satisfies both of those for now and I think he can be the 3C if Simon+Crosby+Sprong stick and there is a trickle-down effect of wing talent to support him. Both of those wings better be capable of scoring goals though because he sure isn't.

No argument from me on the goals. We need more of goal #4.

 

[Empoleon8771]

All depends what the price is for Plekanec, I watched a lot of him being in Montreal and the guy does disappear when it gets nasty (playoffs)
He has some abilities, I think he is better all around than Sheanan but at the same time I wouldn't be sending the Habs a big price to get him

If you trade Cole to someone for a 2nd round pick and then move that 2nd round pick for Plekanec at 50%, would you consider that a big price? Because I think that's probably what would happen, because the Penguins would have to move out Cole to afford Plekanec.

On the disappearing thing, I question if he'd disappear if he's playing with Kessel in the playoffs, to be honest. I could easily see an argument that Plekanec struggled in the playoffs in the past because his linemates sucked, which created a Crosby 2013 type of scenario for him in the playoffs. It's hard to produce when your wingers are bad. His career playoff stats aren't bad either, around a 45 point pace per 82 playoff games. Sure, the 4 points in 12 games in 2015 looks iffy, but the rest of it doesn't look too bad. 9 points in 17 games isn't great, but I don't think it's bad either.

 

[Ryder71]

Someone different around the same level is fine. It’s realistic too.

Fundamentally disagree, I want someone who has better offensive acumen. They might not be as good defensively but that's why we have guys like Sheahan and Rowney. Bozak fits that criteria and he's pretty good on face offs. It's a shame he likely won't get traded here however.

 

[Tom Hanks]

All depends what the price is for Plekanec, I watched a lot of him being in Montreal and the guy does disappear when it gets nasty (playoffs)
He has some abilities, I think he is better all around than Sheanan but at the same time I wouldn't be sending the Habs a big price to get him

I was thinking a 2nd with retention (maybe a real small add onto the 2nd).

I imagine Phil goes to L3 if it happens and see a good fit there.

 

[Ryder71]

I have said this numerous times. If we're judging him based on how he has done in Pittsburgh, literally everything before he got traded to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. He has definitely played at a 3C caliber so far in Pittsburgh. Him not getting a point in 8 games while getting 4 minutes a night in Detroit is completely irrelevant from what he has done in Pittsburgh so far. I have said this like 3 times now.

And again just because you compartmentalize his stats (solely basing it on his time here) doesn't mean I do or everyone does. You do that to further your agenda. I get it, but you have to understand the context. And in the bigger picture he's been rather futile for quite some time. Let's just be fair about it and look at a larger number of games. When comparing him to other players we use those stats. So, let's me fair about it.

 

[Riptide]

Yeah because goals are kind of important. To act as if that isn't important variable to consider is complete and total lunacy. You can't have a 3c with that level of production and expect to win in the playoffs against the Tampas of the world.

Odd... we won with that exact same sort of production from our 3C the last 2 years. But yeah... I guess you can't win with it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It's not "furthering an agenda" to look at his stats in Pittsburgh and ignore his stats in Detroit to judge how he has done in Pittsburgh. What Sheahan did in Detroit is 1000% irrelevant of how he has performed in Pittsburgh. I have no idea how someone can try to include his Detroit stats to judge how he has done as the Penguins 3C, it makes absolutely no sense. It is completely logical to look at just his Pittsburgh stats to judge how he has done in Pittsburgh. Why does it matter what he did last year? He wasn't on the Penguins. Why does it matter what he did in the first 8 games of this year? He wasn't on the Penguins.

The discussion is about how Sheahan has done as the 3C for the Pittsburgh Penguins, not what Sheahan did when playing in Detroit. Trying to change it from that discussion is just hilariously bias driven, it shows you don't actually have an argument against Sheahan being a 3C caliber player in Pittsburgh.

 

[Ryder71]

Odd... we won with that exact same sort of production from our 3C the last 2 years. But yeah... I guess you can't win with it.

Really, an eight goal and 27 point pace? Cause that's what Sheahan is on.

 

[Riptide]

There’s a difference between Sheahan producing at a 3C rate, which he is, and being a guy who can exploit Kessel’s skillset on a third line.

That I can get behind.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Fundamentally disagree, I want someone who has better offensive acumen. They might not be as good defensively but that's why we have guys like Sheahan and Rowney. Bozak fits that criteria and he's pretty good on face offs. It's a shame he likely won't get traded here however.

I don’t think you understand what I mean by someone different. I’m not saying to be a clone of Sheahan. Better offensively and not as good defensively is something different. Ultimately someone who can fit with Phil and not be terrible in the D zone.

Rowney should not be on the team.

 

[Riptide]

I think you're cherry picking his pittsburgh stats. Why can't we look at the entire season? This isn't some pie in the sky theory here, he has 14 points in 43 games. Why can't you accept it, because it's true.

When we look at other players we compare their stats with other teams, why should this be any different?

Because his role changed drastically that's why. Sheahan went from a 4th line winger to a #3C when he came to Pittsburgh. Getting Pageau isn't going to drastically change his role. He's Ottawa's 3C and he would be PITs 3C. Getting Bozak would - but probably not for the betterment of Bozak (at least on a statistical level).

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

If you trade Cole to someone for a 2nd round pick and then move that 2nd round pick for Plekanec at 50%, would you consider that a big price? Because I think that's probably what would happen, because the Penguins would have to move out Cole to afford Plekanec.

On the disappearing thing, I question if he'd disappear if he's playing with Kessel in the playoffs, to be honest. I could easily see an argument that Plekanec struggled in the playoffs in the past because his linemates sucked, which created a Crosby 2013 type of scenario for him in the playoffs. It's hard to produce when your wingers are bad. His career playoff stats aren't bad either, around a 45 point pace per 82 playoff games. Sure, the 4 points in 12 games in 2015 looks iffy, but the rest of it doesn't look too bad. 9 points in 17 games isn't great, but I don't think it's bad either.

I'd be ok with that kind of move if we can land something back in return for Cole

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't even know if you need someone better offensively than Sheahan for the 3C role. If you bring in a 3C, I think you need someone who fits better with Kessel or with the other wingers the Penguins have on the 3rd line. The issue with Sheahan as the 3C is that the Penguins don't really have the appropriate wingers for him to be the 3rd line center. He needs to be surrounded with heavier and gritty wingers, I don't think he meshes well with guys like Sheary or Simon or Sprong. Sure, you could do Guentzel-Sheahan-Hornqvist and I think that line would work, but it wouldn't be as effective as having the right players around Sheahan.

It comes back to a post I made a week ago: you either need to bring in the right 3C or the correct wingers so Sheahan is the correct 3C. I think Plekanec would be a guy who falls in the "right 3C" category. Not because he's better offensively than Sheahan, but because I think his game would complement Kessel (and the rest of the Penguins skilled wingers) much better than Sheahan's game.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I was thinking a 2nd with retention (maybe a real small add onto the 2nd).

I imagine Phil goes to L3 if it happens and see a good fit there.

Lots' of retention, Habs have plenty of cap space and they can pretty much swallow everything like Carolina did last year with Hainsey.

 

[Ryder71]

I don’t think you understand what I mean by someone different. I’m not saying to be a clone of Sheahan. Better offensively and not as good defensively is something different. Ultimately someone who can fit with Phil and not be terrible in the D zone.

Give me an example if you would.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Lots' of retention, Habs have plenty of cap space and they can pretty much swallow everything like Carolina did last year with Hainsey.

Yeah it’d have to be 50%.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Give me an example if you would?

Plekanec would be better suited to Phil and holds up well in the D zone. I’d love to get someone better I don’t see it happening.

 

[Ryder71]

Plekanec would be better suited to Phil and holds up well in the D zone. I’d love to get someone better I don’t see it happening.

I was afraid you might say him. If there's no one else, sure. But I honestly don't think he'd move the needle much for us and his numbers over the last few seasons have plummeted. 60 three years ago to 54 to 28 to about the same this season.

 

[Shady Machine]

I was afraid you might say him. If there's no one else, sure. But I honestly don't think he'd move the needle much for us and his numbers over the last few seasons have plummeted. 60 three years ago to 54 to 28 to about the same this season.

In your opinion, who should JR trade for and what do you think it would cost?

Just curious because while I agree with you that JR should be aiming high, I think your expectations might be a bit too high.