Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Nine Mile Skid on a Ten Mile Ride

[Ryder71]

Brassards best season 60points
Bozaks best season 55 points
Pageau best season 43 points
Bjugstads best season 43 points
Sheahans best season 36 points

And if you look at all four players I mentioned, all have good playoff numbers, although some of the sample sizes are small. But to act as if all these players can be lumped in together as equal is not a good argument.

 

[Ryder71]

True and I agree, but you do have to consider, to Rip's point, the different role Sheahan played the last 2 years in Detroit. He fell out of favor with the coach, much of it due to poor play I would guess, but that impacted his ice time and role considerably. So it's fair to say that with more trust and ice time he could increase his production. So far that has held true in Pittsburgh.

Of course, to your point, if we give that benefit to Sheahan we would need to somehow account for that with the other players which Rip doesn't.

And I don't hate Sheahan, but let's see him for what he is. As a 4c I think he's very solid. I just believe the list of players I cited and their talent and offensive acumen are at a higher level.

 

[Shady Machine]

And I don't hate Sheahan, but let's see him for what he is. As a 4c I think he's very solid. I just believe the list of players I cited and their talent and offensive acumen are at a higher level.

For the sake of argument, let's say I agree that the list of players you cited are more talented and have a higher offensive acumen. That doesn't mean that Sheahan isn't producing at a 3C quality and that he can't be an adequate 3C. That said, I agree that for the Pens to be successful, he shouldn't be the 3C here. Or, at the very least, JR acquires another Sheahan quality center (see high end 4C, low to avg 3C).

Let's hope JR can get what you want, but I don't think it's likely.

 

[Ryder71]

No I excluded him for 3 reasons. 1) He's a 2c and not a 3C - that's very clear based on his numbers. 2) He's significantly better than the others you named which were all fairly comparable. And 3) because according to his own GM he's "not available" and "isn't being traded."

Lastly... he didn't even fit YOUR narrative. You listed three "3Cs" and one "2C". The latter is a given that we'd all want him to be our 3C. Unfortunately the odds are stupidly remote, so I focused on the guys that were more realistic, and who were actual comparables instead of the golden unicorn that was the exception.

Brassard did fit my narrative, I was asked what centers I'd prefer who might be available, just because it didn't fit YOUR narrative isn't my problem. Bozaks production at times could equate to a 2C (years of 55, 49 and 49 points) and all the players I mentioned had a season or seasons north of 40 points. So again all four fit my narrative.

 

[Ryder71]

For the sake of argument, let's say I agree that the list of players you cited are more talented and have a higher offensive acumen. That doesn't mean that Sheahan isn't producing at a 3C quality and that he can't be an adequate 3C. That said, I agree that for the Pens to be successful, he shouldn't be the 3C here. Or, at the very least, JR acquires another Sheahan quality center (see high end 4C, low to avg 3C).

Let's hope JR can get what you want, but I don't think it's likely.

Sheahan has four goals. I just don't think that sort of production is satisfactory in 3c role for what we're trying to achieve. As a 4th liner, sure. Plain and simple, Sheahan is not a third line caliber center on a championship team.

 

[Shady Machine]

Sheahan has four goals. I just don't think that sort of production is satisfactory in 3c role for what we're trying to achieve. As a 4th liner, sure. Plain and simple, Sheahan is not a third line caliber center on a championship team.

I agree. 4 goals in 35 games in Pittsburgh puts him on pace for 9 goals per 82 and 30 points all at ES (he has 1 SH assist). If the Pens are going to contend, they need more, but if they can pick up another 30 ES point center, they might be in business. Of course, that means tough decisions like benching Reaves.

Let's say they get Sheahan #2 without subtracting from forward roster and everyone is healthy:

Simon-Crosby-Sprong
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan #2-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist

I know Kuhn will be playing so maybe you bench Sheary or Simon, but if you can get some chemistry with the lines, that has pretty solid depth 1-4 and allows you to roll 4 lines. Would I like more? Sure I would, but I think with healthy, chemistry, and luck, that roster could do some damage in the playoffs.

 

[Rakell67]

Bonino 31gp, 6g, 2a, -8, 10PIM 15:09
6,1 196 ($4.100 mil) turns 30 in Apr

Sheahan 35gp, 4g, 10a, -1, 0PIM, 15:32
6,3 226 ($2.075 mil) turned 26 in Dec

 

[Ryder71]

I agree. 4 goals in 35 games in Pittsburgh puts him on pace for 9 goals per 82 and 30 points all at ES (he has 1 SH assist). If the Pens are going to contend, they need more, but if they can pick up another 30 ES point center, they might be in business. Of course, that means tough decisions like benching Reaves.

Let's say they get Sheahan #2 without subtracting from forward roster and everyone is healthy:

Simon-Crosby-Sprong
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan #2-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist

I know Kuhn will be playing so maybe you bench Sheary or Simon, but if you can get some chemistry with the lines, that has pretty solid depth 1-4 and allows you to roll 4 lines. Would I like more? Sure I would, but I think with healthy, chemistry, and luck, that roster could do some damage in the playoffs.

But is that roster realistic? You just said Kuhn will play, and who knows about Reaves. I would prefer a proven commodity at 3c with better offensive production. I get your point, and another Sheahan level player is definitely better than what we currently have. But I'm not sure it would be good enough. I guess I liken it to instead of drowning in six feet of water, its now three feet of water. Yet the result is still the same.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Brassards best season 60points
Bozaks best season 55 points
Pageau best season 43 points
Bjugstads best season 43 points
Sheahans best season 36 points

And if you look at all four players I mentioned, all have good playoff numbers, although some of the sample sizes are small. But to act as if all these players can be lumped in together as equal is not a good argument.

You know who is better than all those guys listed above? Jake Guentzel. Just sayin'.


So, I see that the Oilers are shopping Anton Slepyshev. I've always liked his game. Can play both wings. Skates well, lots of energy in his game. Still some upside as a scorer, imo. Right-handed shooter who can kill penalties.

If Chiarelli would take Hagelin for Slepyshev, that would be a coup for us.

 

[Ryder71]

You know who is better than all those guys listed above? Jake Guentzel. Just sayin'.


So, I see that the Oilers are shopping Anton Slepyshev. I've always liked his game. Can play both wings. Skates well, lots of energy in his game. Still some upside as a scorer, imo. Right-handed shooter who can kill penalties.

If Chiarelli would take Hagelin for Slepyshev, that would be a coup for us.

But Guentzel hasn't shown that he can do it at center at the NHL level. If he could that'd be great, but so far it hasn't occurred.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

But Guenztel hasn't shown that he can do it at center at the NHL level. If he could that'd be great, but so far it hasn't occurred.

Well, he certainly cannot prove he can play center by playing left wing, that's for bloody sure.

 

[Ryder71]

Well, he certainly cannot prove he can play center by playing left wing, that's for bloody sure.

Well, currently he is playing center and hasn't been all that effective. Maybe it will change, but if it doesn't we know he can produce on wing. So, it'd be great if we can add a quality third line pivot.

 

[UnrealMachine]

I agree. 4 goals in 35 games in Pittsburgh puts him on pace for 9 goals per 82 and 30 points all at ES (he has 1 SH assist). If the Pens are going to contend, they need more, but if they can pick up another 30 ES point center, they might be in business. Of course, that means tough decisions like benching Reaves.

Let's say they get Sheahan #2 without subtracting from forward roster and everyone is healthy:

Simon-Crosby-Sprong
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan #2-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Hornqvist

I know Kuhn will be playing so maybe you bench Sheary or Simon, but if you can get some chemistry with the lines, that has pretty solid depth 1-4 and allows you to roll 4 lines. Would I like more? Sure I would, but I think with healthy, chemistry, and luck, that roster could do some damage in the playoffs.

Those 4 goals should also be put in context:

1. Empty net
2. Major goalie gaffe led to half open net
3. One-timer on a nearly empty net (great overall play/execution, but most of the work was done before a shot was even taken).
4. His latest goal.

The 2-goal "anomaly" from last season looks less and less like an anomaly. Anyway, my criteria for 3C was defensively responsible and 30-point pace. He satisfies both of those for now and I think he can be the 3C if Simon+Crosby+Sprong stick and there is a trickle-down effect of wing talent to support him. Both of those wings better be capable of scoring goals though because he sure isn't.

 

[Empoleon8771]

People will find any way to try and diminish what Sheahan has done in Pittsburgh so far, regardless of how dumb it sounds. It's kinda pathetic, but it's expected at this point. Sheahan has absolutely been a 3C caliber player here in Pittsburgh, you legitimately can't argue that. You want better? Fine, you can have that opinion, but don't try to tear down Sheahan (who has done very well in the 3C role, better than what Bonino did in the regular season in Pittsburgh) to say you want better in the 3C spot.

The absurdly unrealistic expectations for this site for the 3rd line center spot is really the main reason for this Sheahan hate, I think. I don't think people just hate Sheahan, I just think they have absurdly unrealistic expectations for the 3C spot. The Penguins don't have the assets to pull off a guy like Brassard or RNH, and I'm doubtful they have the assets for Pageau either. Flip the tables, why would you trade the Penguins Brassard or Pageau for the assets they'd be offering?

If I had Pageau, Rust would be the most attractive option for me to trade him for, but Rust is injured and he doesn't make enough money for it to work with the salary cap. Sheary wouldn't interest me at all for Pageau, Sheary and a 2nd for Pageau may be fair, but it's not a player I'd want in a return for Pageau. Pageau would probably be the cheapest option available in terms of the 3Cs that get mentioned here a lot.

 

[Ryder71]

People will find any way to try and diminish what Sheahan has done in Pittsburgh so far, regardless of how dumb it sounds. It's kinda pathetic, but it's expected at this point. Sheahan has absolutely been a 3C caliber player here in Pittsburgh, you legitimately can't argue that. You want better? Fine, you can have that opinion, but don't try to tear down Sheahan (who has done very well in the 3C role, better than what Bonino did in the regular season in Pittsburgh) to say you want better in the 3C spot.

The guy has freakin 6 goals in the last year and a half! Some of you really are pushing a ridiculous agenda. Are you and others here related to him or something? My God! Six freakin goals in 123 games!

Yeah, it's crazy to think we can't do better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The guy has freakin 6 goals in the last year and a half! Some of you really are pushing a ridiculous agenda. Are you and others here related to him or something? My God! Six freakin goals in 123 games!

Yeah, it's crazy to think we can't do better.

Says the guy who is judging him solely based on goals, when ignoring literally everything else. Let's just ignore assist totals, point totals, defensive play, possession stats, minutes played, faceoff numbers and literally everything else, let's just look solely at goals, where Sheahan is still on pace for 9 goals for every 82 games in Pittsburgh.

 

[Ryder71]

Says the guy who is judging him solely based on goals, when ignoring literally everything else.

Yeah because goals are kind of important. To act as if that isn't important variable to consider is complete and total lunacy. You can't have a 3c with that level of production and expect to win in the playoffs against the Tampas of the world.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah because goals are kind of important. To act as if that isn't important variable to consider is complete and total lunacy. You can't have a 3c with that level of production and expect to win.

So is literally everything else than Sheahan does that you're not including. Why does it matter if he only has 9 goals per 82 games, but gets 33 points per 82 games? Why does him scoring fewer goals matter if he's still going to factor in on the same amount of goals?

Judging players based on 1 stat is just lazy at best, and completely agenda driven at worst.

 

[Ryder71]

So is literally everything else than Sheahan does that you're not including. Why does it matter if he only has 9 goals per 82 games, but gets 33 points per 82 games? Why does him scoring fewer goals matter if he's still going to factor in on the same amount of goals?

Judging players based on 1 stat is just lazy at best, and completely agenda driven at worst.

He's fine as a 4th line center, last year he compiled 13 points, this season he's on pace for a whopping 28 points. It's better but it's not good enough. Not as a 3C anyhow.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Sheahan is a 3C but has been a lot more effective on our 4th line. It looks good for the first time. L4 has 3 goals in 4 games and 21.5% of Sheahan’s season production has come in those games.

Let’s leave him there and bring in another centre. Doesn’t have to be “better” but good to allow Sheahan to stay where he is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He's fine as a 4th line center, last year he compiled 13 points, this season he's on pace for a whopping 28 points. It's better but it's not good enough. Not as a 3C anyhow.

And he's on pace for 33 points in Pittsburgh, which is clearly 3C numbers. Why does it matter at all what he did before he came to Pittsburgh when he has been very effective in Pittsburgh? His 8 games in Detroit at the start of this season are completely irrelevant from what he has done in Pittsburgh.

Sheahan is a 3C but has been a lot more effective on our 4th line. It looks good for the first time. L4 has 3 goals in 4 games and 21.5% of Sheahan’s season production has come in those games.

Let’s leave him there and bring in another centre. Doesn’t have to be “better” but good to allow Sheahan to stay where he is.

I don't disagree with this, hence why I've been bringing up Plekanec recently. My point was that the completely unrealistic expectations for the 3C spot here are probably a big reason why that people do whatever they can to diminish what Sheahan has done, he has completely played at a 3C caliber in Pittsburgh so far.

I want to add Plekanec because:

A. Plekanec seems like he'd be a good fit with Kessel, since he has strong playmaking talent and was somewhat recently an effective top-6 center.
B. Plekanec brings everything you want your 3C to have in terms of defensive play, PKing and whatnot.
C. It pushes Sheahan to the 4th line, which helps the 4th line dramatically.
D. Plekanec won't cost anything prohibitive to acquire, Cole out and Plekanec in is very reasonable to suggest.
E. Plekanec could be re-signed as a short stop gap option for much cheaper than his current cap hit, which would give the Penguins a great center group for next year too.

 

[Ryder71]

My mistake Sheahans on pace for 27 points. Yep 3c!

 

[Ryder71]

And he's on pace for 33 points in Pittsburgh, which is clearly 3C numbers. Why does it matter at all what he did before he came to Pittsburgh when he has been very effective in Pittsburgh.



I don't disagree with this, hence why I've been bringing up Plekanec recently. My point was that the completely unrealistic expectations for the 3C spot here are probably a big reason why that people do whatever they can to diminish what Sheahan has done, he has completely played at a 3C caliber in Pittsburgh so far.

We're not gonna cherry pick stats, this year 43 games, 14 points, a 27 point pace.

Hey, if you're gonna do that why not just compartmentalize his stats to his last game. He scored a goal, so then you can assert he's on pace for 82 goals a season!

 

[mpp9]

There’s a difference between Sheahan producing at a 3C rate, which he is, and being a guy who can exploit Kessel’s skillset on a third line.

No reason to dump on Sheahan. He’s in a position to succeed now on the 4th line.

We want a low end 2C as our 3C and a guy who can score as our 4C. Guentzel working out at 3C or a trade is all we need there.

I’d like to see Benoit Pouliot flank Malkin if Kane isn’t in the cards as our other move.

 

[Ryder71]

Let’s leave him there and bring in another centre. Doesn’t have to be “better” but good to allow Sheahan to stay where he is.

I agree he should be left there. That's why I want to bring in another player for the 3c role. I've been saying this since I got here. But I disagree, I want someone better and who can score more than six goals in the last 123 games.