GDT: Panthers @ Avalanche - 12/14/17

[RainingRats]

I'd also consider trading Ekblad, his skating will prevent him from being a top pair guy long-term. Sure, he'll be a good top 4, but 7.5 per is way too high.

Barkov, Huberdeau and Trocheck are the only 3 guys with any significant value on this team right now. You can start trading guys like Bjugstad, Petro, McGinn, Mack, Sceviour, etc. but it won't do anything in terms of improving the team short term. We need to accept the fact that this year is a write off. Get as many assets as we can at the deadline, make some moves at the draft and pray that guys like Tippett and Borgstrom (maybe Hepo) can play full time next year and make an impact. If not, we're in for another write off next season as well.

The day Gallant got fired set this team back 2, maybe 3 years and we're seeing it first hand right now.

How can you blame Gallant when you make it clear the roster has three players with significant value.

Gallant doesn't magically turn MacK into a competent penalty Killer or turn Bjugstad into a beast.

We have roster issues, not coaching issues, imo. We gave away a guy with 26 points and a guy with 23 points who is very good defensively and had chemistry with Tro. That destroyed our depth up front. This team would have better 5 on 5 play and better special teams with them. Also, Tallon picking Vrbata over Jagr hurt us as well. Our GM set us back.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

I'd also consider trading Ekblad, his skating will prevent him from being a top pair guy long-term. Sure, he'll be a good top 4, but 7.5 per is way too high.

Barkov, Huberdeau and Trocheck are the only 3 guys with any significant value on this team right now. You can start trading guys like Bjugstad, Petro, McGinn, Mack, Sceviour, etc. but it won't do anything in terms of improving the team short term. We need to accept the fact that this year is a write off. Get as many assets as we can at the deadline, make some moves at the draft and pray that guys like Tippett and Borgstrom (maybe Hepo) can play full time next year and make an impact. If not, we're in for another write off next season as well.

The day Gallant got fired set this team back 2, maybe 3 years and we're seeing it first hand right now.

Gallant is so overrated on here its a joke at this point.

"Firing him set this team back 3 years" Lol, what are you even talking about?

 

[SoupyFIN]

We have roster issues, not coaching issues, imo. We gave away a guy with 26 points and a guy with 23 points who is very good defensively and had chemistry with Tro. That destroyed our depth up front. This team would have better 5 on 5 play and better special teams with them. Also, Tallon picking Vrbata over Jagr hurt us as well. Our GM set us back.

You're forgetting that even if you replaced Bjugstad with Smith (no other salary dump to be made realistically, assuming the Demers deal to the Yotes still goes through in this universe), there would still be a hole in the line-up. Bjugstad has also actually played well this season, so I don't get that criticism.

Marchessault would've been a one season band-aid, since we can't afford the money he's bound to get in free agency next year (tbh I think whoever gives him the crazy money is going to regret it within a few years). Yes, we could've received picks/prospects at the deadline, but would that have offset what was paid to unload Bjugstad (remember that March was essentially the price for Vegas to take Smith and we had to retain salary on Demers + take back a salary dump)? Maybe, maybe not.

Vrbata vs. Jagr is a minor thing, since we know the team had to move on from Jagr eventually. Vrbata hasn't worked out which sucks, but at least it wasn't a multi year contract. Jagr has said it himself that this is probably his last NHL season, so that would've been another one year band-aid.

These three cases aren't even the biggest problem with the forwards. Our bottom6 centers consist of a 21yo project that's still working things out and isn't trusted by the coach, and a 36yo "captain" that should probably be retired by now. Having Smith/Marchessault doesn't solve our bottom6 center problems, a position that has a huge impact on how the whole line plays.

TL;DR, we would more than likely be better this season, but long-term? Debatable and far from a clear case.

 

[RainingRats]

You're forgetting that even if you replaced Bjugstad with Smith (no other salary dump to be made realistically, assuming the Demers deal to the Yotes still goes through in this universe), there would still be a hole in the line-up. Bjugstad has also actually played well this season, so I don't get that criticism.

Marchessault would've been a one season band-aid, since we can't afford the money he's bound to get in free agency next year (tbh I think whoever gives him the crazy money is going to regret it within a few years). Yes, we could've received picks/prospects at the deadline, but would that have offset what was paid to unload Bjugstad (remember that March was essentially the price for Vegas to take Smith and we had to retain salary on Demers + take back a salary dump)? Maybe, maybe not.

Vrbata vs. Jagr is a minor thing, since we know the team had to move on from Jagr eventually. Vrbata hasn't worked out which sucks, but at least it wasn't a multi year contract.

These three cases aren't even the biggest problem with the forwards. Our bottom6 centers consist of a 21yo project that's still working things out and isn't trusted by the coach, and a 36yo "captain" that should probably be retired by now. Having Smith/Marchessault doesn't solve our bottom6 center problems, a position that has a huge impact on how the whole line plays.

Again, you're missing the point.

Smith is much better than Bjugstad. Smith can play the PK. Smith is very good defensively. Smith can pass the puck and has a high hockey iq. Tro has no line mates. Smith had chemistry with Trocheck. Smith is an all around better player than Bjugstad.

March makes our team better 5 on 5 and gives us offensive depth. He also helps the PP.

Losing Bjugstad and keeping Smith and March is a significant net gain. Who cares if we lose March to free agency or *gasp* actually get something in return versus giving him aways for free! People forget the year we had the Stanley Cup Winning team, the second line was almost as dominant as the first. Rolling two legit lines makes a huge impact on the game. Smith and Tro had great chemistry and Jokinen was an ideal LW for them.

Also, if we want to blame people. We can blame the owners for setting an internal cap but given Tallon's preferences for players and moves made, he did not ice the best possible roster.

How can you say Vrbata vs. Jagr is a minor thing? Vrbata has been invisible. Jagr played well last year but there is no way he would have been as bad as Vrbata is this year. Jagr on the top line or second line works. Gives us more scoring in the top 6.

Yeah, those three would not make things easier on the bottom 6 in any way. You're confusing icing a perfect roster with an easily better roster than Tallon assembled.

Jagr, Smith, March >>>>>>>>> Bjugstad, Vrbata

This team is probably sniffing the playoffs if not in a playoff spot right now.

Tallon is not good. Our owners suck.

 

[MintyFresh88]

How can you blame Gallant when you make it clear the roster has three players with significant value.

Gallant doesn't magically turn MacK into a competent penalty Killer or turn Bjugstad into a beast.

We have roster issues, not coaching issues, imo. We gave away a guy with 26 points and a guy with 23 points who is very good defensively and had chemistry with Tro. That destroyed our depth up front. This team would have better 5 on 5 play and better special teams with them. Also, Tallon picking Vrbata over Jagr hurt us as well. Our GM set us back.

I'm not blaming Gallant at all. I'm blaming ownership for jumping the gun on firing him.

 

[RainingRats]

I'm not blaming Gallant at all. I'm blaming ownership for jumping the gun on firing him.

Typo, my fault. Meant to say "How can you blame the firing of Gallant*..."

 

[MintyFresh88]

Gallant is so overrated on here its a joke at this point.

"Firing him set this team back 3 years" Lol, what are you even talking about?

Overrated or not, he had our team playing it's best hockey in franchise history and that's a fact. Whether you like him or not, firing him was not the right decision. That, among other decisions by ownership set us back. It's painfully obvious at this point.

It is what it is though. I'm just frustrated like everyone else because we probably shouldn't be in this position right now. We went from thinking we were a couple years away from a cup run to now being a couple years away from making the playoffs again. Just sucks.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

This discussion is so moot.

LV didn't want Bjugstad and we had to cut salary. There was no way we would have been able to keep Smith and March.

 

[RainingRats]

This discussion is so moot.

LV didn't want Bjugstad and we had to cut salary. There was no way we would have been able to keep Smith and March.

This is such a convenient out based on no facts. It's not moot at all. There's no way of knowing if this is true.

We do know Tallon is obsessed with his guys.

We know everyone around the league thought we blew the expansion draft.

Other teams got rid of bad contracts to vegas and paid a price to do it at a much higher cost than we paid.

We gave away two legit top 6 forwards for nothing. Yes, that was definitely our best and only option!

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Gallant is so overrated on here its a joke at this point.

"Firing him set this team back 3 years" Lol, what are you even talking about?

Gallant is one of the best coaches in the league. Florida's roster is still considerably better than Vegas'. I don't know about setting this team back 3 years but it certainly was not a good decision. Fwiw my opinion of him has increased 10-fold since he started with Vegas, he is doing an amazing job with a bad roster.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

This is such a convenient out based on no facts. It's not moot at all. There's no way of knowing if this is true.

Equally you can't prove it's not.

But it's just logic. Bjugstad is a 40 point player who had a terrible year last year, had injury issues and is getting paid over 4 million long term. There is not a single GM in the league that would've touched that contract without an equally bad contract coming back, which we couldn't do.

Smith had a down year too and has been an up and down player through his career (watch him have a down year next year again) and was just signed long term for 5 milliion. Again, no GM would have take that contract without sending salary back and again, we couldn't take any salary back. So we had to give them March to compensate.

Take a look around the league how valued cap space is and you'll see why the deal went down like it did.

 

[I am not exposed]

Ekblad has been brutally slow since he stepped into the league. I’d trade him for the right deal honestly.

You should do a COTP article about this. Would definitely put the cat amongst the pigeons!

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

Gallant is one of the best coaches in the league. Florida's roster is still considerably better than Vegas'. I don't know about setting this team back 3 years but it certainly was not a good decision. Fwiw my opinion of him has increased 10-fold since he started with Vegas, he is doing an amazing job with a bad roster.

Not even close. Vegas forward corps destroys ours.

The only thing we have that they don't, is a Barkov type player. They're depth is 10x better than ours.

 

[batting1k]

You’re telling me not one single team would take a 25-year old 6’6” 215+ pound C/W that can skate with a 24-goal season already under his belt? Dale Tallon is the only GM in the league that likes him/ would want a player like that? The ONLY way to get him would be to take on a bad contract?

I find that hard to believe.

Bjugstad hits 20 goals and that’s not too bad of a contract. Now personally I’m skeptical if he has the true talent to be the top-6 we all want him to be, but you can’t sit here and tell me not one single GM would make a move for him.

And on jagr vs. Vrbata...I think the difference is small. Jagr has been injured like half the season already lol so he’s been just as invisible.

 

[batting1k]

You should do a COTP article about this. Would definitely put the cat amongst the pigeons!

Keep in mind, I said “the right deal.” I certainly wouldn’t give him away. The only players I consider untouchable on this team are 11-16-21.

 

[ShootIt]

Wish we could of dumped Demers contract without retaining or taking back a contract in the 3+mil range.

Maybe could of had the cash to keep Smith, unless Tallon just didn't like him.
Could of avoided signing Vrbata too.

Oh well, long gone.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

You’re telling me not one single team would take a 25-year old 6’6” 215+ pound C/W that can skate with a 24-goal season already under his belt? Dale Tallon is the only GM in the league that likes him/ would want a player like that? The ONLY way to get him would be to take on a bad contract?

Bjugstad is playing well now and even if he hits 20 goals, it's "just" an ok contract.

Bjugstad last year with his 14 points, injury issues and signed long term over 4million per year- a boat anchor. No single GM would roll the dice on him getting back to form without sending salary back.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

Wish we could of dumped Demers contract without retaining or taking back a contract in the 3+mil range.

.

This is just one of the many deals around the league that proves the point I'm trying to get through.

It's almost impossible to dump pure cap space to another team without a contract coming back.

 

[batting1k]

Bjugstad is playing well now and even if he hits 20 goals, it's "just" an ok contract.

Bjugstad last year with his 14 points, injury issues and signed long term over 4million per year- a boat anchor. No single GM would roll the dice on him getting back to form without sending salary back.

But Dale Tallon doesn’t consider it to be rolling the dice, at least from the sound of it. So why would all 30 other GMs think of it as an anchor? We’re literally talking about GMs that signed Matt Beleskey to big contracts, David Clarkson, etc. But a young forward with a decent skill set on a reasonable contract if he hits 40 points is an anchor to all but one GM. Ok.

 

[GrumpyKelly]

But Dale Tallon doesn’t consider it to be rolling the dice, at least from the sound of it. So why would all 30 other GMs think of it as an anchor? We’re literally talking about GMs that signed Matt Beleskey to big contracts, David Clarkson, etc. But a young forward with a decent skill set on a reasonable contract if he hits 40 points is an anchor to all but one GM. Ok.

Those were UFAs that got signed to poor contracts after having good/great years. Bjugstad was already under a contract and was downtrending with a horrible year under his belt. Not comparable at all.

 

[MintyFresh88]

But Dale Tallon doesn’t consider it to be rolling the dice, at least from the sound of it. So why would all 30 other GMs think of it as an anchor? We’re literally talking about GMs that signed Matt Beleskey to big contracts, David Clarkson, etc. But a young forward with a decent skill set on a reasonable contract if he hits 40 points is an anchor to all but one GM. Ok.

I'd think Bjugstad carries some value. The only issue in trading him is the type of return we're likely looking at. I would assume we'd need to take back some salary, which wouldn't be the worst case scenario, but will it be for another guy looking to rebound and overcome some adversity? I'd rather just keep Nick and hope he puts it together...which for him is 20+ goals and 40-50 points. That's the ceiling we're looking at with him, let's be realistic. If he can manage somewhere around that, I have no problem whatsoever with him or his contract.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

But Dale Tallon doesn’t consider it to be rolling the dice, at least from the sound of it. So why would all 30 other GMs think of it as an anchor? We’re literally talking about GMs that signed Matt Beleskey to big contracts, David Clarkson, etc. But a young forward with a decent skill set on a reasonable contract if he hits 40 points is an anchor to all but one GM. Ok.

All had productive years before getting paid. Beleskey just passed waivers because he is multiyear and sucks this year. Maybe I’m not seeing it but hard to find a comparable in the last 5 for a potential Bjugs trade after last season. Especially something that sheds salary of the trading team.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

I think the discussion is pointless because no one has proof of anything. Personally, I just think it's logical that anyone who watched Bjugstad and Demers last year would know they had no value, especially when many teams have no cap space. That said, the position DT was put in is ridiculous because Florida had a ton of capspace and our horrendous ownership made us cut cap. Blame should honestly be exclusively put there.

I miss Cohen, at least he wasn't stealing taxpayer money.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

I think the discussion is pointless because no one has proof of anything. Personally, I just think it's logical that anyone who watched Bjugstad and Demers last year would know they had no value, especially when many teams have no cap space. That said, the position DT was put in is ridiculous because Florida had a ton of capspace and our horrendous ownership made us cut cap. Blame should honestly be exclusively put there.

I miss Cohen, at least he wasn't stealing taxpayer money.

Vinner was good dude too, just underfunded.

 

[SoupyFIN]

Again, you're missing the point.

Smith is much better than Bjugstad. Smith can play the PK. Smith is very good defensively. Smith can pass the puck and has a high hockey iq. Tro has no line mates. Smith had chemistry with Trocheck. Smith is an all around better player than Bjugstad.

March makes our team better 5 on 5 and gives us offensive depth. He also helps the PP.

Losing Bjugstad and keeping Smith and March is a significant net gain. Who cares if we lose March to free agency or *gasp* actually get something in return versus giving him aways for free! People forget the year we had the Stanley Cup Winning team, the second line was almost as dominant as the first. Rolling two legit lines makes a huge impact on the game. Smith and Tro had great chemistry and Jokinen was an ideal LW for them.

Also, if we want to blame people. We can blame the owners for setting an internal cap but given Tallon's preferences for players and moves made, he did not ice the best possible roster.

How can you say Vrbata vs. Jagr is a minor thing? Vrbata has been invisible. Jagr played well last year but there is no way he would have been as bad as Vrbata is this year. Jagr on the top line or second line works. Gives us more scoring in the top 6.

Yeah, those three would not make things easier on the bottom 6 in any way. You're confusing icing a perfect roster with an easily better roster than Tallon assembled.

Jagr, Smith, March >>>>>>>>> Bjugstad, Vrbata

This team is probably sniffing the playoffs if not in a playoff spot right now.

Tallon is not good. Our owners suck.

There is still a hole in the line-up if you replace Bjugstad with Smith. If March is in the picture, our bottom6 wing depth would be better, but we'd still have the same centers, which doesn't solve the main problem for forwards.

My point about Jagr was that if he was still on the team, there's no chance in hell he could be able to handle the minutes Barkov/Huberdeau/Trocheck are playing right now. In a reduced role, he wouldn't be nearly as effective, probably close to the production Vrbata is at and we'd be equally annoyed at Jagr.

This is such a convenient out based on no facts. It's not moot at all. There's no way of knowing if this is true.

We do know Tallon is obsessed with his guys.

We know everyone around the league thought we blew the expansion draft.

Other teams got rid of bad contracts to vegas and paid a price to do it at a much higher cost than we paid.

We gave away two legit top 6 forwards for nothing. Yes, that was definitely our best and only option!

We do also know that Tallon isn't obsessed to his guys to the point where he'd refuse to trade any of them. Does he have favourites on the team? Probably but then again, which GM doesn't? Point being, he's traded plenty of "his guys" in the past.

You still believe that we traded March for nothing? Other teams gave up picks and prospects, we gave up a player. That was our bribe, simple as that. There's no other logical way to look at it, unless you're on the "Tallon loves Bjugstad / hates Smith & March" -boat.

You’re telling me not one single team would take a 25-year old 6’6” 215+ pound C/W that can skate with a 24-goal season already under his belt? Dale Tallon is the only GM in the league that likes him/ would want a player like that? The ONLY way to get him would be to take on a bad contract?

I find that hard to believe.

Bjugstad hits 20 goals and that’s not too bad of a contract. Now personally I’m skeptical if he has the true talent to be the top-6 we all want him to be, but you can’t sit here and tell me not one single GM would make a move for him.

The whole point is that teams were projecting his future based on the last couple of years, where Bjugstad looked to be regressing and riddled with injuries. Of course it's easy now to say that he's tradeable when he's actually playing well and staying healthy.

All had productive years before getting paid. Beleskey just passed waivers because he is multiyear and sucks this year. Maybe I’m not seeing it but hard to find a comparable in the last 5 for a potential Bjugs trade after last season. Especially something that sheds salary of the trading team.

Only one I can think of is Cody Hodgson (for age & contract length), but he didn't recover and got bought out. He's retired now, I think.