GDT: Panthers @ Avalanche - 12/14/17

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RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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Basically there are two thoughts on the expansion draft, imo. And you fall into one of the two.

1. You think March and Smith for nothing was the best and only option
2. You think we could have done something else and probably not given up so much real NHL talent
 

Brokin

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Nov 30, 2014
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Bjugstad is playing well now and even if he hits 20 goals, it's "just" an ok contract.

Bjugstad last year with his 14 points, injury issues and signed long term over 4million per year- a boat anchor. No single GM would roll the dice on him getting back to form without sending salary back.
I've been saying this since the beginning of time. Bjugs had no value around the league after last season. Then if they had left him exposed I can think of 3 other players that would have garnered attention ahead of him. I had hoped he would have the type of season he's having this year to at least get one GM's to kick the tires but even that's no guarantee anyone would take a shot even up at the TDL. Besides Tallon will ride his guys into the sunset. Don't let the door hit you in the arz on the way out Dale.

Also I've been posting March + a 4th was the price that had to be paid to move Smith's contract. It was either that or take back $1M per for 5 yrs plus pay Marchessault $5M per long term to keep him after this year. Posters who think otherwise are living in a dream world. Think March and Smith would have made a big difference in our playoff chances over acquiring McGinn, Vrbata and Dadonov? Did either of these guys help us to a playoff spot last year?:laugh:
 
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RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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All this talk about Bjugstad being unmovable makes it sound like people have never negotiated anything in their lives. There are always options. There are plenty of stupid GMs in the league, we just happen to have one of them.

Maybe we swap first round picks, throw in Malgin. Maybe we give them a player like Jayce, a second, and Bjugstad.

Fact is, Tallon loves Bjugstad. March and Smith are not Tallon guys. Simple as that. It was never an option for Tallon to move Bjugstad.

They took Marc Andre Fluery, a very good goalie, but took 6 million off the books for 2 years from Pitt in exchange for a measly second round pick in 2020. Not that many teams could take Fluery with that contract! But a better GM found a way. Fluery is expensive, a veteran, and not going to be part of the future of their team unlike a younger Bjugstad who could have turned it around with a change of scenery, could have been a center for them, a position they lacked in the draft, and was coming off an injury rattled season.
 

RainingRats

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I've been saying this since the beginning of time. Bjugs had no value around the league after last season. Then if they had left him exposed I can think of 3 other players that would have garnered attention ahead of him. I had hoped he would have the type of season he's having this year to at least get one GM's to kick the tires but even that's no guarantee anyone would take a shot even up at the TDL. Besides Tallon will ride his guys into the sunset. Don't let the door hit you in the arz on the way out Dale.

Also I've been posting March + a 4th was the price that had to be paid to move Smith's contract. It was either that or take back $1M per for 5 yrs plus pay Marchessault $5M per long term to keep him after this year. Posters who think otherwise are living in a dream world.
Everything else is irrelevant. Bjugstad is a Tallon guy and was never an option to moved. Maybe now that he's no longer the big hulking center he dreamed he'd be, he'd be more open to moving him but I doubt it.
 

Brokin

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Nov 30, 2014
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Everything else is irrelevant. Bjugstad is a Tallon guy and was never an option to moved. Maybe now that he's no longer the big hulking center he dreamed he'd be, he'd be more open to moving him but I doubt it.
Of course it is in the world of delusion. :)
 

jvr32

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Oct 24, 2016
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Basically there are two thoughts on the expansion draft, imo. And you fall into one of the two.

1. You think March and Smith for nothing was the best and only option
2. You think we could have done something else and probably not given up so much real NHL talent

Yup. There is no accountability in this organisation. Looks like even some fans are fine with Dale's decisions considering the expansion draft. The losing culture here runs from top to bottom and you can see it in this forum. Dale should have been grilled but instead he gets away with it and feels comfortable saying a few weeks back how "there is more hockey media in Montreal than hockey fans in Florida".
 
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SoupyFIN

#OneTerritory
Nov 7, 2011
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Basically there are two thoughts on the expansion draft, imo. And you fall into one of the two.

1. You think March and Smith for nothing was the best and only option
2. You think we could have done something else and probably not given up so much real NHL talent
No, not the best and only option. The most realistic option. We had to dump salary and out of the three clear salary dumps we had (Demers/Bjugstad/Smith), two got traded and the one that didn't, clearly had the worst trade value at the time for various reasons. Vegas wasn't going to take on salary without a bribe, so you get to pick your poison. Prospects/picks or a player (for the record, we weren't the only team that gave up a good player, Anaheim gave them Theodore and Minnesota traded Tuch). It made more sense from where we are (bubble playoff team) to give up one year of March, than to give up on a young controlable player. I don't blame Tallon for choosing that way.

Unless you're totally fine with trading the 1st rounder from the past draft, or one of our better prospects like Borgstrom or Heponiemi? Imagine the outcry here had we traded Borg/Hepo (although technically not possible with Hepo, since the expansion draft happened before the entry draft) and let Marchessault walk as a UFA after this season.

No matter how hard you (or anyone else for that matter) try to come up with a "best scenario" on how things should've gone, we'd still have holes in the line-up, short-term or long-term.

They took Marc Andre Fluery, a very good goalie, but took 6 million off the books for 2 years from Pitt in exchange for a measly second round pick in 2020. Not that many teams could take Fluery with that contract! But a better GM found a way. Fluery is expensive, a veteran, and not going to be part of the future of their team unlike a younger Bjugstad who could have turned it around with a change of scenery, could have been a center for them, a position they lacked in the draft, and was coming off an injury rattled season.
Yeah, who wouldn't take a clear number 1 goalie short-term that's good for PR and a 2nd rounder on top of it. Yup, a really good comparison to a mid6/top9 forward with performance & injury issues and an eternity contract to boot. :rolleyes:
 
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RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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No, not the best and only option. The most realistic option. We had to dump salary and out of the three clear salary dumps we had (Demers/Bjugstad/Smith), two got traded and the one that didn't, clearly had the worst trade value at the time for various reasons. Vegas wasn't going to take on salary without a bribe, so you get to pick your poison. Prospects/picks or a player (for the record, we weren't the only team that gave up a good player, Anaheim gave them Theodore and Minnesota traded Tuch). It made more sense from where we are (bubble playoff team) to give up one year of March, than to give up on a young controlable player. I don't blame Tallon for choosing that way.

Unless you're totally fine with trading the 1st rounder from the past draft, or one of our better prospects like Borgstrom or Heponiemi? Imagine the outcry here had we traded Borg/Hepo (although technically not possible with Hepo, since the expansion draft happened before the entry draft) and let Marchessault walk as a UFA after this season.

No matter how hard you (or anyone else for that matter) try to come up with a "best scenario" on how things should've gone, we'd still have holes in the line-up, short-term or long-term.

Yeah, who wouldn't take a clear number 1 goalie short-term that's good for PR and a 2nd rounder on top of it. Yup, a really good comparison to a mid6/top9 forward with performance & injury issues and an eternity contract to boot. :rolleyes:
You're rewriting history and framing it as our only option. You're also saying it is the best option which we all know is tough to accept.

Again, I'm not saying we'd have a perfect roster but we'd have something better than this. Tallon gutted the forward depth.

Trading a guy who makes nothing and scored 30 goals is IDIOTIC if you're a cap team/internal budget. Why did he trade him? Because he's not one of his guys. Same with Smith.

Montreal with no centers would have been a potential destination for Bjugstad. They're starved for a big center. They also have a bad GM. There are other teams we could have moved him to. Arizona could have been a destination if we send along some picks and prospects.

The point with Fluery is they only gave up a second round pick, their GM is one of the better ones. Ours, not so much. That's still a lot of salary to take on and Pitt had to move him. They had upcoming cap issues.

I remember your shock and horror, rightly so, when you realized all we got back was a 4th round pick!
 
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Depch

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The "Tallon guy" is quite a funny concept. Has anyone thought that perhaps he just prefers the charasteristics certain players have more in trying to acquire them and keeping certain players over than making it a egoistical approach that he must prove himself and stick to "his" guys? Has anyone got any proof of that or is it just first thing you guys yourself would do so you automatically project that to the others as well?-D
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
21,649
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The "Tallon guy" is quite a funny concept. Has anyone thought that perhaps he just prefers the charasteristics certain players have more in trying to acquire them and keeping certain players over than making it a egoistical approach that he must prove himself and stick to "his" guys? Has anyone got any proof of that or is it just first thing you guys yourself would do so you automatically project that to the others as well?-D
You must be new here, lol.

He favors size and character over pure skill. Look at his first draft, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic. His philosophy is outdated and why only recently our drafting as improved. Barkov was not his pick originally because he also has a NA bias. Thankfully our head Finnish scout is brilliant.

Look at who he keeps around and who he moves. Doesn't require a special investigation to figure out he has a preference for the guys he drafted.

He always talked about having big strong centers down the middle. He wanted a big strong team with #character. While other GMs saw a league trending toward speed and skill, he got left behind by GMs with more foresight.

Perhaps you should read theblueprint.doc
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
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You're rewriting history and framing it as our only option. You're also saying it is the best option which we all know is tough to accept.

Again, I'm not saying we'd have a perfect roster but we'd have something better than this. Tallon gutted the forward depth.

Trading a guy who makes nothing and scored 30 goals is IDIOTIC if you're a cap team/internal budget. Why did he trade him? Because he's not one of his guys. Same with Smith.

Montreal with no centers would have been a potential destination for Bjugstad. They're starved for a big center. They also have a bad GM. There are other teams we could have moved him to. Arizona could have been a destination if we send along some picks and prospects.

So let's say Florida traded Bjugstad and a 1st instead of Smith and Jam. Is that better? Does Florida win a Cup this year? Florida can't afford March after this season, is it even worthwhile? This team honestly has so many more problems that arguing Smith vs Bjugstad isn't even a big deal anymore. Ownership has ruined this team, that's ultimately who it falls on.
 

letsgrowcactus

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Jan 21, 2017
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This is the new Kulikov-Gudbranson debate, isn't it. We're going to revisit it again and again and again and again spending months trading the exact same arguments.
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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So let's say Florida traded Bjugstad and a 1st instead of Smith and Jam. Is that better? Does Florida win a Cup this year? Florida can't afford March after this season, is it even worthwhile? This team honestly has so many more problems that arguing Smith vs Bjugstad isn't even a big deal anymore. Ownership has ruined this team, that's ultimately who it falls on.
Agree ownership is ultimately responsible but you also need a good GM to make any progress.

A cup was never expected this year. We have a better shot at a winning season. Can't sign every soon to be UFA. Maybe Tallon would have held off on signing Matheson so quickly if he knew he might consider signing March. We could have also traded March mid season if things weren't looking good or at the deadline.

Rather have Smith and March on this roster than Bjugstad and first, 100%. Look how much they help Vegas. We'd probably be a playoff team and everyone would be happy.
 

letsgrowcactus

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Jan 21, 2017
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So let's say Florida traded Bjugstad and a 1st instead of Smith and Jam. Is that better? Does Florida win a Cup this year? Florida can't afford March after this season, is it even worthwhile? This team honestly has so many more problems that arguing Smith vs Bjugstad isn't even a big deal anymore.

It could be if he brings you something significant at the trade deadline. If he keeps his production, at that cost he's a contending team's dream.
Anyway the discussion is moot. The guys are gone, it is what it is. Personally I'm just hoping next season is better thanks to incoming prospects + more experience on the D + more coaching experience/knowing the system.
 

SimbaThePanther

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Jul 3, 2015
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Barkov was not his pick originally because he also has a NA bias. Thankfully our head Finnish scout is brilliant.

That's just ridiculous. In the end it was his pick, wasn't it? What is the point of having scouts around if you are not gonna listen to their input? He doesn't have to care if the scouts really likes a certain player, if he himself prefer another. He may have leaned for another guy intially, but the scout convinced him to pick Barkov...that is how the systen should work.
 

letsgrowcactus

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Jan 21, 2017
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It's not because Smith and March are actually good players.
And some guys here believe(d) that Kulikov and Gudbranson were great Dmen, part of the core, whatever.
I even agree with you about Smith, March, expansion draft. The problem is we're rehashing the same exact arguments over and over again. They didn't agree the previous 20 times but surely the 21st time they're finally going to be convinced!
Yes this is a discussion board, but maybe we can we pick a new topic?
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
21,649
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That's just ridiculous. In the end it was his pick, wasn't it? What is the point of having scouts around if you are not gonna listen to their input? He doesn't have to care if the scouts really likes a certain player, if he himself prefer another. He may have leaned for another guy intially, but the scout convinced him to pick Barkov...that is how the systen should work.
It's well known Tallon was convinced to take Barkov.
 

SimbaThePanther

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Jul 3, 2015
506
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It's well known Tallon was convinced to take Barkov.

I know, what I'm saying is that it was simply the scout doing his job. Like I said, what is the point of having scouts on a team if the GM won't listen to their input? You make it sound like he twisted Tallons arm to make the pick. ;)
 

Brokin

Registered User
Nov 30, 2014
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It's well known Tallon was convinced to take Barkov.
Yup. Tallon had to be sold on Barkov because of his NA bias. If it was between McKinnon and Barkov, Tallon would have grabbed McKinnon in a heartbeat because of the speed, skill, shot and solid frame. He had 2 other choices in Drouin and Jones. He wasn't going to waste a #2 on Drouin because he was another Huby but I'm sure he was tempted on Jones due to his other fetish which is drafting D men. Kekalainen used Tallon's obsession with "big down the middle" to persuade him to grab Barkov ahead of Jones. Incidentally, IMO Tallon normally does what he pleases when it comes to the first two guys in any draft no matter what his scouting staff has to say. Just another negative trait from a guy with an ego who has lived off his drafting of Toews and Kane his whole GM career. :)
 

SoupyFIN

#OneTerritory
Nov 7, 2011
41,382
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You're rewriting history and framing it as our only option. You're also saying it is the best option which we all know is tough to accept.

Again, I'm not saying we'd have a perfect roster but we'd have something better than this. Tallon gutted the forward depth.

Trading a guy who makes nothing and scored 30 goals is IDIOTIC if you're a cap team/internal budget. Why did he trade him? Because he's not one of his guys. Same with Smith.

Montreal with no centers would have been a potential destination for Bjugstad. They're starved for a big center. They also have a bad GM. There are other teams we could have moved him to. Arizona could have been a destination if we send along some picks and prospects.

The point with Fluery is they only gave up a second round pick, their GM is one of the better ones. Ours, not so much. That's still a lot of salary to take on and Pitt had to move him. They had upcoming cap issues.

I remember your shock and horror, rightly so, when you realized all we got back was a 4th round pick!
No, I'm looking at the expansion draft from a point of realism and you're looking at it through the eyes of an NHL console game GM. Just because teams have capspace and needs, doesn't mean they're going to take our salary dump and thank us.

Your point about Fleury is quite awful actually. If Fleury, who is still a very capable number 1 and signed to a good contract (Pens just couldn't afford it with their young players needing extensions), needs a 2nd rounder to ensure Vegas takes him, what is Bjugstad going to take with his past track record? Is a 1st rounder enough? I don't think so.

I remember my shock and horror, when the internal cap was a thing of the past and we thought we actually had owners that were willing to spend to the ceiling. That info wasn't reported until after the expansion draft.

You must be new here, lol.

He favors size and character over pure skill. Look at his first draft, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic. His philosophy is outdated and why only recently our drafting as improved. Barkov was not his pick originally because he also has a NA bias. Thankfully our head Finnish scout is brilliant.

Look at who he keeps around and who he moves. Doesn't require a special investigation to figure out he has a preference for the guys he drafted.

He always talked about having big strong centers down the middle. He wanted a big strong team with #character. While other GMs saw a league trending toward speed and skill, he got left behind by GMs with more foresight.

Perhaps you should read theblueprint.doc
This isn't true, Tallon has been on the record for many years now that the league is trending towards smaller & faster players and that the team needs to adapt.

Rather have Smith and March on this roster than Bjugstad and first, 100%. Look how much they help Vegas. We'd probably be a playoff team and everyone would be happy.
But how can you guarantee that they'd put up the same numbers? We saw already last year how March's numbers dropped when he was taken off the top line and Smith has consistently proven to be inconsistent.

It's well known Tallon was convinced to take Barkov.
For all we know, Kekalainen could've said it (draft him or fire me IIRC) to ensure Barkov was the pick. We literally have no idea who Tallon on his own wanted to draft 2nd, MacKinnon more than likely at #1.

I think the team would've drafted Barkov, regardless of who was the GM. The team had never had a proper franchise center and no offense to Drouin, but from what I remember he'd played wing his draft year. Jones would've been a weird pick because we already had Guds (also how it was looking like a mistake by that point) and because how close the top was.
 
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