GDT: Panthers @ Avalanche - 12/14/17

[RainingRats]

I know, what I'm saying is that it was simply the scout doing his job. Like I said, what is the point of having scouts on a team if the GM won't listen to their input? You make it sound like he twisted Tallons arm to make the pick.

My point was Tallon's drafting always has had a North American bias. If not for a scout going up to bat and pushing Tallon hard to take Barkov he probably would have grabbed Jones. Barkov was the exception trait wise to almost all of Tallon's picks in the first round.

 

[SoupyFIN]

Right and we all know he would have passed on Barkov if he followed his typical criteria for selecting a player

Big & strong? Sure sounds like Barkov.

My point was Tallon's drafting always has had a North American bias. If not for a scout going up to bat and pushing Tallon hard to take Barkov he probably would have grabbed Jones. Barkov was the exception trait wise to almost all of Tallon's picks in the first round.

Or he's had assistant GMs that had a NA bias..

As far as Tallon's drafts here go, 2010 had one European around where we drafted (Nino, who had character issues and needed a fresh start to turn things around), 2011 had one (Larsson, IMO Landy counts as a NA player since he played in the OHL and Zibanejad was a reach #6 at the time), 2012 had none (damn you Pens for picking Maatta right before us), 2014 had none (at the time it was pretty much Ekblad vs. Reinhart, Draisaitl was the consolation prize), 2015 had one (Guryanov, awful pick by Dallas) and 2017 had one (Necas). Also worth noting that Chicago post-Tallon (2010 to present), has drafted 2 Europeans in the 1st round. 4 NA players and two years that they didn't have a 1st rounder.

Personally I don't believe in the NA vs. EU bias, outside of the KHL threat for Russian players. The NHL is too global these days for a narrow view like that. It's more of a storyline created by TV people and reporters to come up with content about the draft. The GMs and scouts will draft the best available player or/and best fit for their franchise, regardless of nationality and the league they play in.

 

[Ryuji Yamazaki]

“I’ve never eaten a hot pocket and afterward been like ‘I’m glad I ate that’”

 

[RainingRats]

Big & strong? Sure sounds like Barkov.

Or he's had assistant GMs that had a NA bias..

As far as Tallon's drafts here go, 2010 had one European around where we drafted (Nino, who had character issues and needed a fresh start to turn things around), 2011 had one (Larsson, IMO Landy counts as a NA player since he played in the OHL and Zibanejad was a reach #6 at the time), 2012 had none (damn you Pens for picking Maatta right before us), 2014 had none (at the time it was pretty much Ekblad vs. Reinhart, Draisaitl was the consolation prize), 2015 had one (Guryanov, awful pick by Dallas) and 2017 had one (Necas). Also worth noting that Chicago post-Tallon (2010 to present), has drafted 2 Europeans in the 1st round. 4 NA players and two years that they didn't have a 1st rounder.

Personally I don't believe in the NA vs. EU bias, outside of the KHL threat for Russian players. The NHL is too global these days for a narrow view like that. It's more of a storyline created by TV people and reporters to come up with content about the draft. The GMs and scouts will draft the best available player or/and best fit for their franchise, regardless of nationality and the league they play in.

Try North American. Look at his draft picks. They're almost always from North America.

I'm talking about the rest of the draft. Not just the first pick. I don't think until his fourth draft he picked a European player in the first two rounds. Maybe one in the late second.

Nah, Tallon has an old school mindset. Some GMs have preferences for types of players they like to draft. Some organizations weren't afraid to go overseas and get players with skill with higher picks.

Also, Scott Luce SUCKS and Tallon kept him around.

 

[Gentle Man]

This is important news.

 

[ShootIt]

You must be new here, lol.

He favors size and character over pure skill. Look at his first draft, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic. His philosophy is outdated and why only recently our drafting as improved. Barkov was not his pick originally because he also has a NA bias. Thankfully our head Finnish scout is brilliant.

Look at who he keeps around and who he moves. Doesn't require a special investigation to figure out he has a preference for the guys he drafted.

He always talked about having big strong centers down the middle. He wanted a big strong team with #character. While other GMs saw a league trending toward speed and skill, he got left behind by GMs with more foresight.

Perhaps you should read theblueprint.doc

Yes his first draft was for size. His second one wasn't. Huberdeau, when he could of gone for Couts(size character etc) and then drafted Grimaldi in the second.
2012 he didn't take a huge lumbering defenseman, but a smooth skating defenseman.
2013 he took Barkov, but now he gets no credit cause he's European and one of our scouts liked him. Not that Barkov had a game made for nhl ice/style of play and fit his vision of what he wanted in a center.
2014 he was gushing over Ehlers. A smaller fast winger. There were rumors we were trying to trade down. Possibily to take him. It didn't happen. We took the defense man who was expected to be a safe pick and a potential#1.

 

[SoupyFIN]

Try North American. Look at his draft picks. They're almost always from North America.

I'm talking about the rest of the draft. Not just the first pick. I don't think until his fourth draft he picked a European player in the first two rounds. Maybe one in the late second.

Nah, Tallon has an old school mindset. Some GMs have preferences for types of players they like to draft. Some organizations weren't afraid to go overseas and get players with skill with higher picks.

Also, Scott Luce SUCKS and Tallon kept him around.

Preferences, sure. Equal players from both continents and you're bound to have some preferences affect your decision. But bias? That to me, is like taking a NA prospect two rounds earlier than what he was pre-draft ranked, just because. We've had very few players like that (if any) and even the biggest example in Borg was rumoured to go before the 1st round ended.

Tallon had an old school way of looking things, but then again, Chicago/Boston/LA defense first tough teams were the flavour of the month at the time. I'll say it again, Tallon has said many times over the past couple of years about how the league is trending towards smaller & faster players and how the organization needs to adapt to it. You're trying to paint a picture of an old man, that lives in his ivory tower and is incapable at changing his ways.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

Try North American. Look at his draft picks. They're almost always from North America.

Because the NA jr systems (CHL specifically) model their schedule, rules and league around the NHL.

 

[RainingRats]

Yes his first draft was for size. His second one wasn't. Huberdeau, when he could of gone for Couts(size character etc) and then drafted Grimaldi in the second.
2012 he didn't take a huge lumbering defenseman, but a smooth skating defenseman.
2013 he took Barkov, but now he gets no credit cause he's European and one of our scouts liked him. Not that Barkov had a game made for nhl ice/style of play and fit his vision of what he wanted in a center.
2014 he was gushing over Ehlers. A smaller fast winger. There were rumors we were trying to trade down. Possibily to take him. It didn't happen. We took the defense man who was expected to be a safe pick and a potential#1.

Gudbranson over Fowler - size over skill
2. Bjugstad and Howden. Other option Kuznetsov who he'd never pick, highly skilled scary Russian
2010 first round - BUST on Three first round picks, sets rebuild back
second round
Petrovic and McFarland - Size again in his d-men instead he could have grabbed Justin Faulk but he's not nearly as big or unskilled

So Tallon goes 0/5 in the first 5 picks of a draft in which we sold off our best assets for. And people wonder why we're still not a consistent winner. Probably 0/6 or maybe struck out in the entire draft but I don't remember who else we picked.

2011 - Huberdeau was a better prospect than Couturier. Rocco was a risky pick but Tallon took him despite his size because of Character! I'll give him credit for rolling the dice. So his first non Tallon pick after 6 picks. Don't forget Rasmus in the late second round. Another bust.

So after 8 picks in the first two round we walk away with one good NHL Player you can build a team around. Solid. People wonder why we're still not winning and you can look at his first two drafts. Thankfully he hit on Trocheck and what do you know, he favored skill over anything else..

2012 - Finally took Matheson who still hasn't lived up to his draft spot but he made sure to sign him. He's again big and from north america. Rest of that draft was a bust.

2013 - It's not that he doesn't credit but he had to be convinced to take him. He wouldn't have taken but for our Finnish scout pushing to take him. Why is this so controversial? It was well known at the time.

2014 - Of course we take Ekblad. Not going to complain about that pick.

2015 - Lawson Crouse - Tallon special


Point is, Tallon is not that good at drafting. Rarely goes for Europeans. Has he ever drafted a Russian with a third round pick or higher besides Barkov? He completely blew the 2010 NHL draft. He's had Scott Luce here for too long. If you guys say he should get credit for the Barkov pick then he gets credit for all the other busts.

 

[RainingRats]

Preferences, sure. Equal players from both continents and you're bound to have some preferences affect your decision. But bias? That to me, is like taking a NA prospect two rounds earlier than what he was pre-draft ranked, just because. We've had very few players like that (if any) and even the biggest example in Borg was rumoured to go before the 1st round ended.

Tallon had an old school way of looking things, but then again, Chicago/Boston/LA defense first tough teams were the flavour of the month at the time. I'll say it again, Tallon has said many times over the past couple of years about how the league is trending towards smaller & faster players and how the organization needs to adapt to it. You're trying to paint a picture of an old man, that lives in his ivory tower and is incapable at changing his ways.

This is semantics. His preference doesn't allow him to equally compare players.

I'm just not that impressed with Tallon. Nothing he has done has been impressive. I don't get the defense of him. He's mediocre. And if he was so high on speed and smaller players, he would have found a way to keep Smith and March. Not sign Vrbata.

 

[Gentle Man]

2010 again?

Gudbranson was bust in terms of him getting picked that high. He was a miss. He shouldnt have been taken that high, but he has still, and is still, playing games. The fact that he is still playing games doesnt make the pick a fail.

The fact that Gudbranson was traded by another GM doesnt automatically make draft a failure. I am sure MANY looked back at the Dadonov pick as a waste before this year as he didnt play that many games for the team.

Shit, take a look at the Canadiens drafting history. you can count on one hand how many players actually ended up playing a *respectable* number of games.

Just because you do not get the best player in the draft, which is decided YEARS after a draft has taken place, does not mean you failed at that draft. That is just not how you are supposed to look at drafts. This is not a realistic outlook. The % of players picked that actually stay in the league is extremely low. Players getting traded shouldnt change that.

Hell, GM's MAY know that a goalie is going to be a franchise #1...but they STILL wouldnt spend an early pick, even a 2nd, on them because they wont reap the fruits of that pick till years and years later when they may not even be the GM of said team. That's just the reality of drafting.

Gudbranson was a *MISS*. Many teams miss at a drafting position. But the fact that these players actually play means the GM didnt fail.

Does that mean that every team that didnt draft Lundqvist failed at that draft? Hell no. They just didnt Win the draft.

if you really want to look at whether he failed at that draft, you have to see ALL the picks regardless if they got traded or not. A player not wanting to play for a team can hardly be blamed on the GM. Hell, Ill blame the the organization for being the way it was.

Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Petrovic, Donskoi, Hyman. thats 5 player that have played over 100 games. Brickley is still playing and will likely break that marker. That's 6 players. That is exceeding draft expectations by a WIDE margin.

 

[RainingRats]

2010 again?

Gudbranson was bust in terms of him getting picked that high. He was a miss. He shouldnt have been taken that high, but he has still, and is still, playing games. The fact that he is still playing games doesnt make the pick a fail.

The fact that Gudbranson was traded by another GM doesnt automatically make draft a failure. I am sure MANY looked back at the Dadonov pick as a waste before this year as he didnt play that many games for the team.

****, take a look at the Canadiens drafting history. you can count on one hand how many players actually ended up playing a *respectable* number of games.

Just because you do not get the best player in the draft, which is decided YEARS after a draft has taken place, does not mean you failed at that draft. That is just not how you are supposed to look at drafts. This is not a realistic outlook. The % of players picked that actually stay in the league is extremely low. Players getting traded shouldnt change that.

Hell, GM's MAY know that a goalie is going to be a franchise #1...but they STILL wouldnt spend an early pick, even a 2nd, on them because they wont reap the fruits of that pick till years and years later when they may not even be the GM of said team. That's just the reality of drafting.

Gudbranson was a *MISS*. Many teams miss at a drafting position. But the fact that these players actually play means the GM didnt fail.

Does that mean that every team that didnt draft Lundqvist failed at that draft? Hell no. They just didnt Win the draft.

We had 5 picks in like the first 32 picks. The best we've done is a guy half of us wanted given away in the expansion draft. Not sure why some people can't accept that the 2010 draft was a failure. It is what it is.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

Not to mention Tallon was there for all 2 1/2 weeks. In hindsight it shoud’ve been Dudley’s draft and Tallon eases in after as GM

 

[SoupyFIN]

Gudbranson over Fowler - size over skill
2. Bjugstad and Howden. Other option Kuznetsov who he'd never pick, highly skilled scary Russian
2010 first round - BUST on Three first round picks, sets rebuild back
second round
Petrovic and McFarland - Size again in his d-men instead he could have grabbed Justin Faulk but he's not nearly as big or unskilled

So Tallon goes 0/5 in the first 5 picks of a draft in which we sold off our best assets for. And people wonder why we're still not a consistent winner. Probably 0/6 or maybe struck out in the entire draft but I don't remember who else we picked.

2011 - Huberdeau was a better prospect than Couturier. Rocco was a risky pick but Tallon took him despite his size because of Character! I'll give him credit for rolling the dice. So his first non Tallon pick after 6 picks. Don't forget Rasmus in the late second round. Another bust.

So after 8 picks in the first two round we walk away with one good NHL Player you can build a team around. Solid. People wonder why we're still not winning and you can look at his first two drafts. Thankfully he hit on Trocheck and what do you know, he favored skill over anything else..

2012 - Finally took Matheson who still hasn't lived up to his draft spot but he made sure to sign him. He's again big and from north america. Rest of that draft was a bust.

2013 - It's not that he doesn't credit but he had to be convinced to take him. He wouldn't have taken but for our Finnish scout pushing to take him. Why is this so controversial? It was well known at the time.

2014 - Of course we take Ekblad. Not going to complain about that pick.


Point is, Tallon is not that good at drafting. Rarely goes for Europeans. Has he ever drafted a Russian with a third round pick or higher? He completely blew the 2010 NHL draft. He's had Scott Luce here for too long. If you guys say he should get credit for the Barkov pick then he gets credit for all the other busts.

Fowler, there was a dozen other teams that said no thanks. Hindsight is always easy.

Kuznetsov at the time, was a question mark to even ever come to the NHL. Again, hindsight is easy.

Faulk is another hindsight pick that was passed by every team at least once.

Bjugstad was fine for where he was picked, a mid6/top9 forward.

Howden's career was derailed by injuries that happened in the WHL. We can't blame the GM, scouts, organization, etc. for something that happened across the continent in a different league where Panthers have no power over. It sucks, but that's life. **** happens.

As for the bolded, please post an article with quotes about this or something. All this says is that Kekalainen was the final nail in the coffin. It's like if you've already decided to do something, but ask your friend for an opinion, you aren't going to say to a third person that "yeah, my friend convinced me", more like "yeah, my friend assured me that this is the right decision". I want an actual quote where Tallon admits that he would not have drafted Barkov if it was his choice entirely.

This is semantics. His preference doesn't allow him to equally compare players.

I'm just not that impressed with Tallon. Nothing he has done has been impressive. I don't get the defense of him. He's mediocre. And if he was so high on speed and smaller players, he would have found a way to keep Smith and March. Not sign Vrbata.

He is better than having the clown show with Rowe & co., that have no clue what they're doing. Had we given up on Tallon without everything that happens over the past 1.5 years and moved to a different GM that isn't crazy, I doubt anyone would be crying to have Tallon back. But the problem is, that with what happened, people want stability and at the moment Tallon brings that.

Smith and March fast? Please. Smith is average at best and March is slow for today's NHL (especially with the crackdown on slashing). Vrbata is a one year stopgag until one of the kids is ready, but you should know that by now.

 

[Gentle Man]

We had 5 picks in like the first 32 picks. The best we've done is a guy half of us wanted given away in the expansion draft. Not sure why some people can't accept that the 2010 draft was a failure. It is what it is.

I direct you to this.

Statistically Speaking: Expected value of NHL Draft picks - Article - TSN

I read this two years ago, and it still is a good article.

Even if Bjugstad was given away, HE'D still be playing games!

 

[Depch]

When evaluating drafts cherry picking must be avoided. Let's broaden the picture a bit.

Here we have the 2010 draft in an easy to read list 2010 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com

A team like Dallas hit no one in 2010 until the 5th round where they struck gold on Klingberg and that's the only guy they got from the draft. A team like Rangers hit no one until the 6th round for Jesper Fast who is currently playing for them. When Florida drafted 6 current NHL regulars in 2010 you can call the draft a success even though they did not have a home run hit for elite talent. Yea, it could've been much better, but they still found talent from the draft where as many did worse. And it's a different topic on why you lost some of the guys.

There are a lot of other teams that failed to pick on some gems. That happens _every_ year, see how many teams skipped currently highly touted Tolvanen this year. Perhaps evaluating these youngsters at such a young age is one reason why the draft year is to be postponed for age classes.

The drafting is on a totally different level post 2010 than it was prior to that. Florida was starving to find talent to fill their teams from within, which is the reason for your suckage last decade. Now it looks like you are getting regulars almost every year from the draft and sometimes more than 1, that is absolutely great. Some of the latest drafts are too early to predict fully, but they look real good how the prospects are developing in their own leagues. Who pans out, future says.

Also why not mention Trocheck for 2011 #3 round? Absolutely great find. 2012 looks to be only Matheson and if he hits his potential it's an absolutely great pick at that range. 2013 is rocking with what looks like to be 3 future regulars in Barkov, McCoshen & Weegar (#7 round pick!). 2014 onwards it's too early to see which of the projects can turn to regulars but Ekblad was the right pick there. He's improving and looked good lately.

 

[Brokin]

Just for argument sake. Tallon between 2005-2009 drafted approx 42 players of which 34 were from NA. From 2010-2015 he drafted approx 50 players of which 40 were from NA. The next 2 drafts were more by committee except for the 1st pick in 2017 which IMO was Tallon all the way with Tippett. They had 12 players drafted in 2016-2017 and 7 were from NA. You can see the scale tipping away from the NA bias when Tallon/Luce were not in charge. Tallon has drafted approx 80% of his players from NA where Yzerman is around 67% from NA. Compare this with the fact that approx 75% of the NHL players are from NA and you can see the skew between the two GM's and who has had the most success since Yzerman became a GM in 2010.

 

[RainingRats]

Just for argument sake. Tallon between 2005-2009 drafted approx 42 players of which 34 were from NA. From 2010-2015 he drafted approx 50 players of which 40 were from NA. The next 2 drafts were more by committee except for the 1st pick in 2017 which IMO was Tallon all the way with Tippett. They had 12 players drafted in 2016-2017 and 7 were from NA. You can see the scale tipping away from the NA bias when Tallon/Luce were not in charge. Tallon has drafted approx 80% of his players from NA where Yzerman is around 67% from NA. Compare this with the fact that approx 75% of the NHL players are from NA and you can see the skew between the two GM's and who has had the most success since Yzerman became a GM in 2010.

Good post!

 

[SoupyFIN]

Just for argument sake. Tallon between 2005-2009 drafted approx 42 players of which 34 were from NA. From 2010-2015 he drafted approx 50 players of which 40 were from NA. The next 2 drafts were more by committee except for the 1st pick in 2017 which IMO was Tallon all the way with Tippett. They had 12 players drafted in 2016-2017 and 7 were from NA. You can see the scale tipping away from the NA bias when Tallon/Luce were not in charge. Tallon has drafted approx 80% of his players from NA where Yzerman is around 67% from NA. Compare this with the fact that approx 75% of the NHL players are from NA and you can see the skew between the two GM's and who has had the most success since Yzerman became a GM in 2010.

You do know that the GMs have very little input past the first two rounds, right? The GM ultimately collects the credit or takes the blame, but he doesn't scout those players. A more approriate question considering we have a player budget is, that does the scouting staff have restrictions as well?

Tippett is the exact opposite of a prototypical Tallon pick. Project, not hard working (note: don't take this as lazy, offense first players just tend to be that way), boom/bust and a sniper. Besides the team has been lacking a goalscorer for ages and now we're gonna complain about it 6 months in to his development?

 

[GermanPanther]

You do know that the GMs have very little input past the first two rounds, right? The GM ultimately collects the credit or takes the blame, but he doesn't scout those players. A more approriate question considering we have a player budget is, that does the scouting staff have restrictions as well?

Tippett is the exact opposite of a prototypical Tallon pick. Project, not hard working (note: don't take this as lazy, offense first players just tend to be that way), boom/bust and a sniper. Besides the team has been lacking a goalscorer for ages and now we're gonna complain about it 6 months in to his development?

As far i know you speak with the Player before the Draft and you fire and hire also the scouting staff.
And we all was happy when we fired the former scouting staff or better Main Scoute, who brought us a lot of lost Picks.
I mention in the PM that after we switched the scouting staff our Drafts get much much better. With the 2016 we maybe get one of the best Draft Years ever in Panthers history together more or less 4of7 Picks will make the Team. 2017 3of5 also looks much better, so i have much more confident in it. Special to mention that our europen picks are makeing the Team. So you could they the european Scouting Stuff getting also much better.

 

[KW]

It's not because Smith and March are actually good players.

That's not a correct statement.

The correct statement is that March is a great player at less than $1M per year. Smith is a meh player at $5M per year.

Adding to that, Bjugstad at $4M is better than Smith at $5M.

With that out of the way, I agree that Tallon and company entirely screwed up the expansion draft. Complete screw up. It should have been 7-3-1. But ultimately, it's the owners' fault. They dropped the biggest stink bomb of all with their internal cap.

 

[Brokin]

You do know that the GMs have very little input past the first two rounds, right? The GM ultimately collects the credit or takes the blame, but he doesn't scout those players. A more approriate question considering we have a player budget is, that does the scouting staff have restrictions as well?

Tippett is the exact opposite of a prototypical Tallon pick. Project, not hard working (note: don't take this as lazy, offense first players just tend to be that way), boom/bust and a sniper. Besides the team has been lacking a goalscorer for ages and now we're gonna complain about it 6 months in to his development?

Yeah I think I've mentioned many times to keep Tallon away from the first 2 picks but to no avail.

I can only go by what Tallon has done lately. His last pick before Tippett was Crouse. The 11th pick in the draft and we grab a guy who has 3rd line upside with size, grit, forecheck ability, and some skill....just one of the dumbest picks of all time for a team that needs offense. Then it was Mascherin.......although I doubt this was his pick. Before that we had Ek who was the consensus overall pick even though I thought the way to go was offense and Ehlers. Then the beauty.......Jayce Hawryluk because Tallon liked his interview at the combine even though most of the services had him ranked 10 or 15 slots lower. Not that Jayce is a bad player (he's an excellent player if he can recover from his concussions). I like the fact his game is starting to pick up and that's because he's likely keeping his emotions and big mouth in check while on the ice. This helps preserve his health as players tend not to take a cheap shot to shut you up.

Tippett.....what can I say other than it should have been Suzuki. The guy is not as fast as advertised, he's a napkin, and like you said a boom/bust sniper. I hope he works out, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[Little Bobby Boo]

That's not a correct statement.

The correct statement is that March is a great player at less than $1M per year. Smith is a meh player at $5M per year.

Adding to that, Bjugstad at $4M is better than Smith at $5M.

With that out of the way, I agree that Tallon and company entirely screwed up the expansion draft. Complete screw up. It should have been 7-3-1. But ultimately, it's the owners' fault. They dropped the biggest stink bomb of all with their internal cap.

Lose Bjugstad and Petro or Pysyk to the Draft. Don't sign Vrbata. Trade Demers for a 2018 4th or don't retain in a trade.

We also could have exposed Reimer and his 3+ million salary.

There were ways to making it work on a budget and having a forward core of Bark, Smith, Tro, Dad, Hub, March and McCann.

We just chose Tallon's guys> the right moves. It set us back a few years, and if that isn't clear from the on ice product, then I don't know what is.

 

[TheImpatientPanther]

.....

Tippett.....what can I say other than it should have been Suzuki. The guy is not as fast as advertised, he's a napkin, and like you said a boom/bust sniper. I hope he works out, but I'm not optimistic.

Your boy Suzuki didn't make the cut for Team Canada. Both of them are clearly busts....

 

[RainingRats]

That's not a correct statement.

The correct statement is that March is a great player at less than $1M per year. Smith is a meh player at $5M per year.

Adding to that, Bjugstad at $4M is better than Smith at $5M.

With that out of the way, I agree that Tallon and company entirely screwed up the expansion draft. Complete screw up. It should have been 7-3-1. But ultimately, it's the owners' fault. They dropped the biggest stink bomb of all with their internal cap.

Yeah, there's no way Bjugstad is a better player at 900K less. Sorry. Smith is really underrated around here.

Top 6 RW who is good defensively, can play both special teams, and with the ability to score 20-25 goals. He's probably going to score 50 points again this season. That will be his third season of 50 points or more. He's much better offensively than Bjugstad. He also manages to stay healthy. All around, much better player, better offensively, no comparison really.