Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

Who’s first 3 seasons we’re more impressive


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GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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Crosby also missed 7 games last season and was on pace for 97... pretty close.

And then put up 27 points in 24 playoff games to win the Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup. No big deal.
So 97 pace points is better 100 actual points with an Art Ross and Hart. Got it.

So he was better because he won the conn Smythe that year? Wow you Pitt fans constantly have to change the argument....does that mean Justin Williams was better than Crosby in 2014??

Conn Smythe>Hart ladies and gentlemen.
I thought we were comparing 3 years, not this year. I guess McDavid’s rookie season is better than Crosby’s even though the raw total standard is being used to say McDavid was better in his third. Classic. So I ask again, was it the nutpunch or glovewhack that made you dishonest?
this year isn’t a part of that? Are you lost? So now we don’t count this season, only last season and Their rookie year? Pretty sure that’s not 3 years, but whatever.
Ok, and you know that the only reason Crosby didn’t do that multiple times is injury. Is it Crosby’s fault Brooks Orpik destroyed his face? It is the same logic you are using. How are you not seeing this? You cannot in one sentence say that playoff games don’t count for McDavid because he didn’t make it so it’s not fair, and then say Crosby’s pace is meaningless because he didn’t play the games. It’s not McDavid’s fault he only has 13 playoff games and it’s not Crosby’s fault he only had __ regular season games. Or it is. Pick one.
yes your right. Injuries did cost him, but at the end of the day, there are no imaginary awards, nor are their cudo points for “almost” or “should have” type of scenerios.

Being healthy and playing is part of the game, it’s part of what makes players great. Sure it isn’t his fault, but that doesn’t change the fact that McDavid will most likely pass Sid up within his first 5 years than Sid has done in his entire career, all we can do is see what happens the next time he sees the post season.
 

Zuluss

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May 19, 2011
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Given that Crosby has more games as a less productive rookie vs. McDavid having more games as a more productive 3 year player, this not should go to Crosby.

That sounds more like an explanation of why McDavid was somewhat better over the first three seasons, not a refutation of the fact that he was.
 
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Yuri35

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Mar 11, 2018
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Crosby:
1 Ross
1 hart (no other top 10 finish)
1 Lindsay
1st AST

McDavid:
2 rosses (99% likely)
1 hart (even if he doesn't win this year he's definitely going to be in the top 10)
1 lindsay
1st AST (will probably add a 1st or 2nd for this year too)

So McDavid has an extra ross, an extra top 10 hart finish (potential win) and probably an extra AST.. The answer is pretty obvious.

No to mention Sid had a better support cast in at least 2 of those 3 first seasons and especially had a generational talent like Geno in 1 of those 3 seasons.
So McDavid all the way and that's coming from a Pens fan.
 
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Yuri35

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Mar 11, 2018
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It's very close.

However, it's my belief that McDavid will have the better career.

For me, mcdavid has better physical and talent attributes than Sid who is a great great player but with not an as high ceiling as mcdavid's or even one of his teammates (Geno of course).
McDavid's got that wow factor that Sid lacks.
He is a guy who can stick handle through 3-4 NHL players like they are piwi hockey players, something Sid were never really capable of doing for example.
 

Zuluss

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May 19, 2011
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I can their raw playoff numbers in first three seasons be samples? Do understand the concept of what a sample is. It's pretty black and white who has the better playoff resume. It's a joke that this is even contemplated being overlooked. What the hell do you play the games for if it's not win championships.

I guess you should read up on population mean vs. sample mean.

There is player's ability (say, to score 100 points a season), that would be population mean.

There are actual games played: in a short sample, a 100-point player can produce at 50-point or 150-point pace due to luck, health, fluctuations in physical shape, etc. That observed pace would be sample mean.

If the sample is large, sample mean converges to population mean. Bad and good luck evens out, and a 100-point player will get around 100 points in a full season. If he cannot (for example, because he is never fully healthy), then he is not a 100-point player (e.g., Crosby is not a 90-point player anymore, even though he does have long streaks of producing above that pace, and McDavid currently is a 100-point player)

70-80 games are enough for the sample mean to converge to population mean, even though players' game-by-game production is not independent draws (they go through hot and cold streaks). 10-25 games in a playoff run are not nearly enough for sample mean to converge to population mean, especially given that independent observations in PO are PO series, not games (e.g., if the opposing team's goaltender goes on a hot streak, your team forwards will be underperforming game after game, and vice versa; in RS, you face a hot goalie today and then play a different team in two days).

People like talking about some X-factor that changes players' production in PO, but they overlook a simpler explanation that it is just random variation. And since the independent observations are series and not games, the random variation can be immense. For example, Stamkos scored at 0.306 gpg in his 49 PO games, Zetterberg scored at 0.422 gpg in 135 PO games. I do not think anyone would assume that come PO time, Zetterberg magically becomes a better goalscorer than Stamkos. A more likely explanation that the samples are really 8 PO series vs. 24 PO series, and Zetterberg was just luckier (e.g., in how his deep runs coincided with his better and healthier years). So I would not say that Stamkos is a bad PO goal-scorer, even after 50 games. And of course I am not going to say that McDavid is a bad PO player after 13 games. Probably just unlucky.

I guess we should also overlook McDavid's regular season #'s too because, you know, it's just a sample....

It is a much larger sample, and the sample mean is very close to the population mean. In contrast to PO, where he does not really have a sample yet.
 

daver

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Crosby has finished behind his teammates before though, so what’s your point? Or does Crosby carrry his team every post season, and guys like Malkin(who you claim is on a Draisaitl level :laugh:) is just another good player lucky to be graced with Crosby’s talent?.

In the context of the OP, this doesn't matter. Not sure how this isn't obvious to you.

AFTER THEIR FIRST 3 SEASONS
 

daver

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For me, mcdavid has better physical and talent attributes than Sid who is a great great player but with not an as high ceiling as mcdavid's or even one of his teammates (Geno of course).
McDavid's got that wow factor that Sid lacks.
He is a guy who can stick handle through 3-4 NHL players like they are piwi hockey players, something Sid were never really capable of doing for example.

We have heard this story before with OV, Malkin, Jagr, etc.... vs. Crosby. Same with Wayne vs. Mario. Production is all that matters. Crosby has shown a versatility to his game both offensively and all around that McDavid can only hope for.
 

daver

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is our pacing the same as finishing the season at the top? Last time I checked that’s not the case.

McDavid is already making his legacy with back to back scoring titles and possibly back to back Harts.....something Crosby has never done. He will already have Crosby’s scoring titles matched by his 3rd year. Injuries aside, part of the game is playing and being valuable to your team.

So in the context of the OP, McDavid finished 109th in scoring his rookie year vs. Crosby finishing 6th. How much should that factor into choosing one over the other?
 

Nadal On Clay

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For me, mcdavid has better physical and talent attributes than Sid who is a great great player but with not an as high ceiling as mcdavid's or even one of his teammates (Geno of course).
McDavid's got that wow factor that Sid lacks.
He is a guy who can stick handle through 3-4 NHL players like they are piwi hockey players, something Sid were never really capable of doing for example.

Go take a look at some highlights of pre concussion Sid.
 

GreatGonzo

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In the context of the OP, this doesn't matter. Not sure how this isn't obvious to you.

AFTER THEIR FIRST 3 SEASONS
Actually the context was about how McDavid finished 3rd in scoring after 2 rounds of the playoffs, Crosby finished 2nd in both the first 2 rounds, and the final 2 rounds behind Malkin and Hossa.....
So in the context of the OP, McDavid finished 109th in scoring his rookie year vs. Crosby finishing 6th. How much should that factor into choosing one over the other?
Your all over the place. Just stop.

I was clearly quoting the poster that said hat Crosby “out paced” McDavid his 3rd year, yet McDavid actually played the season through and ended it with 100+ points.

If you want to choose Sid because he had a more successful rookie season, even though McDavid finished the season 3rd in PPG that season(Crosby finished 7th)...by all means, you will always find a way to make Crosby seem better.
 

GreatGonzo

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May 26, 2011
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We have heard this story before with OV, Malkin, Jagr, etc.... vs. Crosby. Same with Wayne vs. Mario. Production is all that matters. Crosby has shown a versatility to his game both offensively and all around that McDavid can only hope for.
You complain about context yet say this? :laugh:

Crosby was just as bad, if not worst in certain factors defensively in their first 3 years compared to McDavid. It took him nearly a decade to actually become more well rounded, but even then posters like you overrate his defense to a point where it’s just plain annoying.

Crosby is decent defensively, but let’s not talk like he wasn’t where McDavid is at that point of their careers.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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For me, mcdavid has better physical and talent attributes than Sid who is a great great player but with not an as high ceiling as mcdavid's or even one of his teammates (Geno of course).
McDavid's got that wow factor that Sid lacks.
He is a guy who can stick handle through 3-4 NHL players like they are piwi hockey players, something Sid were never really capable of doing for example.

That is a false statement. Yeah, McDavid's faster and a better stickhandler (barely), still don't think you saw Crosby enough in his younger days though.
 
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daver

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Actually the context was about how McDavid finished 3rd in scoring after 2 rounds of the playoffs, Crosby finished 2nd in both the first 2 rounds, and the final 2 rounds behind Malkin and Hossa.....

Your all over the place. Just stop.

I was clearly quoting the poster that said hat Crosby “out paced” McDavid his 3rd year, yet McDavid actually played the season through and ended it with 100+ points.

If you want to choose Sid because he had a more successful rookie season, even though McDavid finished the season 3rd in PPG that season(Crosby finished 7th)...by all means, you will always find a way to make Crosby seem better.

It only took you one sentence yo contradict yourself, that's a record.
 

bathdog

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Oct 27, 2016
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Threatened Crosby fans will grasp onto that straw as long as they can even though it's a very small sample size. It's all they have since McDavid has been better than Crosby in the last 2 consecutive regular seasons a massive sample size and even though Crosby has had similar performances like that multiple times in the playoffs.

Basically it works out like this, McDavid better than Crosby over a massive sample size, and Crosby better than McDavid over a very small sample size.

It is what it is, spin it however you need to, to bring McDavid down to your favorite players level so you can sleep at night.

Massive sample size? That begs the question, why would McDavid be "unlucky"?

I don't like the sentiment in this thread, or really most recent McDavid threads. I understand team fans will cling onto it for dear life, but it's got strong support outside of that (which still is understandable).

As you say, McDavid has a not unsubstantial amount games under his belt already over 3 years time, including 2 full seasons. If he keeps being "unlucky" in 2-3 years time this ES/PP argument that keeps on being made won't look very good, and it'd look terrible in 4-6 years time.

He has some room to improve up until his absolute peak, but not because of any regression because he's already playing close to his mean as far as I'm concerned (obviously not referring to this year's PP in a vacuum).

Depsite the PP travesty of this year, over the past three seasons, Kane/Crosby is only producing at ~5% higher per minute rate on the PP, and McDavid is producing at ~18% rate above Ovechkin. The main reason behind his abnormally high ES/PP differences are likely because he has abnormal ES/PP TOI splits (as well as possibly not being able to utilize his edge to the same degree on the PP).

With increased (or insane) volume, often comes decreased quality. We'll have greater clarity in hindsight, as we do with Crosby. Feel free to make fun of me in a few years time. :)

So 97 pace points is better 100 actual points with an Art Ross and Hart. Got it.

So he was better because he won the conn Smythe that year? Wow you Pitt fans constantly have to change the argument....does that mean Justin Williams was better than Crosby in 2014??

Conn Smythe>Hart ladies and gentlemen.

I'm not making the argument, but you seriously don't believe one can be made for last season based on what they did?
 

Future GOAT

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Apr 4, 2017
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Massive sample size? That begs the question, why would McDavid be "unlucky"?
Zuluss actually addressed that quite competently several posts earlier. I'm guessing you read it though, which is why you asked me this question and not him, as he already answered it.
 

KIRK

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Aug 2, 2005
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If the 1st season is easily Crosby due to McDavid missing games, the 3rd season should also be easily McDavid

Both were roughly as good in each season, with McDavid missing a big chunk of his first season, and Crosby missing a big chunk of his 3rd. Slight edge to McDavid for missing time in his worst season though. Biggest difference is the playoffs where Crosby went to the finals and tied for the playoff lead in points.

A bit of a difference, methinks, between McDavid's 48 points in 45 games (1.07 PPG) in his inaugural season versus what Crosby did in his first season compared to Crosby's 72 points in 53 games (1.36PPG) in his third season compared to what McDavid has done in his third season.
 

bathdog

Registered User
Oct 27, 2016
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Zuluss actually addressed that quite competently several posts earlier. I'm guessing you read it though, which is why you asked me this question and not him, as he already answered it.

Fair enough. Of course I did, and I agree with all of it except the PO/Series paragraph.

Just figured you frequented threads where the imaginary points are flowing. Happens for all players though, especially ones with exciting futures/injury riddled peaks, not just McDavid.

Sharing Zuluss opinion and also the post below seems kind of contradictory, so I'm sure you see where I'm coming from...

if he had the same lead over 2nd place in powerplay points that he does in 5v5 points, he'd be at 42. Which would put him at 122 points overall.

Pretty crude hypothetical analysis I know, but I think it helps paint the picture of how far ahead he should be if his team had a proper powerplay and actually got calls
 

Regal

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Mar 12, 2010
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A bit of a difference, methinks, between McDavid's 48 points in 45 games (1.07 PPG) in his inaugural season versus what Crosby did in his first season compared to Crosby's 72 points in 53 games (1.36PPG) in his third season compared to what McDavid has done in his third season.

If you understand the scoring environments, there really isn't
 

Turin

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Feb 27, 2018
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“you can’t count McDavid not playing in the playoffs!”

“McDavid won consecutive regular season awards that Sid didn’t!”

What’s it gonna be? If you hold up the third regular season highly against Crosby you have to count the playoffs.
 

Nadal On Clay

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“you can’t count McDavid not playing in the playoffs!”

“McDavid won consecutive regular season awards that Sid didn’t!”

What’s it gonna be? If you hold up the third regular season highly against Crosby you have to count the playoffs.

Welcome to the board where playoffs don’t matter.
 

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