Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

[HenrikW]

Edmonton fans needs to stop cherry-picking Even Strength points. Fact is, the team is not doing great on the PP and he's supposed to be the engine.

Lemieux had 80 PP in his 3 best seasons. None says "well he only has PP points". That argument is horrible.

 

[HenrikW]

Mcdavid should get better on the PP then, he gets a full two minutes every time.

Crosby is out after a minute, if they havent scored by then.

This is misinformation. 1st PP unit generally plays 1m 10seconds. They are never close to full 2 minutes.

 

[HenrikW]

I think I would have McDavid > Crosby on this vote

Simply because 2x Art Ross, 1 Hart, 2x Lindsay(?) > 1x Ross, 1x Hart, 1x Lindsay

If McDavid doesn't get Lindsay this year then I dunno.

No slight towards Crosby ofc, his career is unparalleled in modern hockey. This poll is about rookie seasons though

 

[daver]

I think I would have McDavid > Crosby on this vote

Simply because 2x Art Ross, 1 Hart, 2x Lindsay(?) > 1x Ross, 1x Hart, 1x Lindsay

If McDavid doesn't get Lindsay this year then I dunno.

No slight towards Crosby ofc, his career is unparalleled in modern hockey. This poll is about rookie seasons though

What about the difference in playoff resumes after three seasons? Crosby has a playoff scoring title.

 

[HenrikW]

What about the difference in playoff resumes after three seasons? Crosby has a playoff scoring title.

An impressive feat to be sure, I can't say I wouldn't have liked to see more of McDavid in the playoffs to have a comparable

 

[daver]

An impressive feat to be sure, I can't say I wouldn't have liked to see more of McDavid in the playoffs to have a comparable

But you can say that despite not seeing more of Crosby in his 3rd season, you would pick McDavid?

 

[Laineux]

McDavid: 2 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles
Crosby: 9 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles

Yet some people like to act that comparison between Crosby and McDavid is "AINEC" in favour of Crosby.

 

[FinProspects]

McDavid: 2 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles
Crosby: 9 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles

Yet some people like to act that comparison between Crosby and McDavid is "AINEC" in favour of Crosby.

Connor is going to absolutely kill Crosby in this kind of comparison eventually.

But its an ignorant comparison:
06-07 Sid won with 120 points
07-08 Ovie won with 112 points. Sid was Injured, on a same pace basically than Ovie.
08-09 Malkin won 113 points. Sid was 3rd with 103 points,
09-10 H. Sedin won with 112 points. Sid was 2nd with 109 points (Ovie would have won if not injured).
13-14 Sid Won.
14-15 Sid was 3rd in points, but yeah, he should have won this to be honest.
15-16 Sid was 3rd in points, Kane had a career year 106points, underwhelming season for Sid.
16-17 2nd in points.
17-18 top10ish finish.

I dont think Connor will face same kind of competition (Geno, Ovie.. Sedin+Kane playing out of their minds in a single season)

 

[Laineux]

Connor is going to absolutely kill Crosby in this kind of comparison eventually.

But its an ignorant comparison:
06-07 Sid won with 120 points
07-08 Ovie won with 112 points. Sid was Injured, on a same pace basically than Ovie.
08-09 Malkin won 113 points. Sid was 3rd with 103 points,
09-10 H. Sedin won with 112 points. Sid was 2nd with 109 points (Ovie would have won if not injured).
13-14 Sid Won.
14-15 Sid was 3rd in points, but yeah, he should have won this to be honest.
15-16 Sid was 3rd in points, Kane had a career year 106points, underwhelming season for Sid.
16-17 2nd in points.
17-18 top10ish finish.

I dont think Connor will face same kind of competition (Geno, Ovie.. Sedin+Kane playing out of their minds in a single season)

I don't like comparing raw point totals between two entirely different eras. Powerplays are currently basically at an all-time low, and Sid has traditionally feasted on the powerplay at a very high rate. When he came to the league it was a much more favourable scoring environment compared to the past few years and even this year, even though scoring is up.

Also disagree with the bolded. This was the exact same argument that was used a lot against Crosby in debates against Jagr - his competition just isn't that great. I think that's just a perspective illusion, not actual lack of competition.

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

Sid was already a playoff beast at the same point.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's close enough that it's open for debate.



Crosby's PP numbers is why I personally prefer McDavid's 2nd season over Crosby's, but you're clearly blowing it out of proportion.

Of course Crosby would score more on ES with more ES TOI, that's common sense.

The fact that Pens were 5th, and not 1st or 2nd, speaks volumes about their otherwordly "dominance". You listing rookie Malkin as an outlier is silly.

I agree. It is close.

Ok?.....so what’s the problem? Sure he would score more, but using adjusted stats to attempt to pass off subjective numbers as facts is where the problem is. Do we know that he would have scored as much as McDavid did at full strength? Nope.

So you have to be 1st or 2nd to be dominant? Has that always been the standards? Because 5th with the most time and PP opportunities shouldn’t be ignored. Rookie Malkin scored 85 points, and was on the PP with Crosby, where’s the argument? Those are facts.

 

[Turin]

I’m not saying this is a foolproof argument, but you seriously think this player didn’t dominate 5 V 5?

 

[GreatGonzo]

I’m not saying this is a foolproof argument, but you seriously think this player didn’t dominate 5 V 5?

Holy Strawman.....

Keep up with the conversation. I’m referring to the idea that Crosby WOULD HAVE dominating at ES in ‘07 the way McDavid did. Will we know? No. Does that mean Crosby isn’t a great ES player? Nope. Although McDavid has already shown glimpse of how dominant he will continue to be at ES, probably better than Crosby.

 

[bathdog]

I agree. It is close.

Ok?.....so what’s the problem? Sure he would score more, but using adjusted stats to attempt to pass off subjective numbers as facts is where the problem is. Do we know that he would have scored as much as McDavid did at full strength? Nope.

People will attempt to adjust when it's such a big part of the argument. As you say, we won't know for sure, but Crosby can't help what was the environment when he started.

So you have to be 1st or 2nd to be dominant? Has that always been the standards? Because 5th with the most time and PP opportunities shouldn’t be ignored. Rookie Malkin scored 85 points, and was on the PP with Crosby, where’s the argument? Those are facts.

Just give it a rest. 85 points then is equivalent to 65-70pts under more normal circumstances.

 

[FinProspects]

I don't like comparing raw point totals between two entirely different eras. Powerplays are currently basically at an all-time low, and Sid has traditionally feasted on the powerplay at a very high rate. When he came to the league it was a much more favourable scoring environment compared to the past few years and even this year, even though scoring is up.

Also disagree with the bolded. This was the exact same argument that was used a lot against Crosby in debates against Jagr - his competition just isn't that great. I think that's just a perspective illusion, not actual lack of competition.

Im just saying that Sid was competing with two arguably top20-top30 players ever.

Who is Connors competing with? Kucherov, 30y old Malkin/Ovie/Sid,Mackinnon,Hall..then in the future Matthews, Eichel, Laine. There is no one close to Connor IMHO.

 

[Regal]

Edmonton fans needs to stop cherry-picking Even Strength points. Fact is, the team is not doing great on the PP and he's supposed to be the engine.

Lemieux had 80 PP in his 3 best seasons. None says "well he only has PP points". That argument is horrible.

But they do point to the fact that he had significantly more PP opportunities than Gretzky when they get compared. And it's a fair point. It's fair to knock McDavid for the PP being poor this year, but the lack of opportunities and McDavid's PPTOI are affecting his totals as well.

 

[GreatGonzo]

People will attempt to adjust when it's such a big part of the argument. As you say, we won't know for sure, but Crosby can't help what was the environment when he started.



Just give it a rest. 85 points then is equivalent to 65-70pts under more normal circumstances.

He took full advantage of it just like any other player would have. But that doesn’t take away the fact that his PP time and opportunities he accumulated over that season made scoring much easier for him as opposed to McDavid. That shouldn’t take anything away from Crosby.

I don’t understand why your getting upset with me mentioning Malkin, he was good that year, and was even better the year after. My whole point with bringing up Malkin was how much it boosted their PP that year, that’s all. Add Gonchar in the mix, it was a great cast and great PP.

 

[GreatGonzo]

What about the difference in playoff resumes after three seasons? Crosby has a playoff scoring title.

That’s a thing now? He tied Zetterberg with 27 points and the tie Breaker would go to Zetterberg based on more goals.

He also lost, all while Hossa was 1 point shy with more goals...so what’s significant about having a “playoff scoring title” when
A. He wasn’t even number 1 in points
B. His team still lost in the finals
C. There isn’t an actual award for that.

Edmonton fans needs to stop cherry-picking Even Strength points. Fact is, the team is not doing great on the PP and he's supposed to be the engine.

Lemieux had 80 PP in his 3 best seasons. None says "well he only has PP points". That argument is horrible.

The engine? You think Crosby was the lone PP player on that team? He had 2 studs in Malkin Andy Gonchar on the man advantage, who does McDavid have?

He’s had 60 PP points over the last 3 seasons, with Edmonton being 29/31 in opportunities and 25/31 in PP time in that same span. To blame McDavid for his teams PP failures makes no sense.

And how many ES points did he score that same year?....

 

[HenrikW]

The engine? You think Crosby was the lone PP player on that team? He had 2 studs in Malkin Andy Gonchar on the man advantage, who does McDavid have?

This is the wrong discussion to have. It's not about why Crosby has been doing well but why McDavid is doing poorly this season. You don't get away with excuses when you're the poster boy of the league. He is the star player and must have some accountability when a part of his game is not doing good - even when it's not only his fault.

Who does Canucks have on the PP? They are 8th in the league working with just as little. NJD is 11th, same thing there. Rangers 12th. We are dead last by a massive margain.

Yes, it's alot to do with systems, coaching and Lucic regressing but that is beside the point. There's 5 threads with Oilers fans posting about how fantastic McDavids even strength production is but if you say anything about PP then, no no, he has zero responsability.

Lemieux had human garbage on the team during 2 of the years he had 80 PPP.

 

[Apotheosis]

McDavid in his only two healthy seasons is about to win 2 Art Rosses, compared to Crosby being healthy for 9 and having the same amount. McDavid is better through first 3.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This is the wrong discussion to have. It's not about why Crosby has been doing well but why McDavid is doing poorly this season. You don't get away with excuses when you're the poster boy of the league. He is the star player and must have some accountability when a part of his game is not doing good - even when it's not only his fault.

Who does Canucks have on the PP? They are 8th in the league working with just as little. NJD is 11th, same thing there. Rangers 12th. We are dead last by a massive margain.

Yes, it's alot to do with systems, coaching and Lucic regressing but that is beside the point. There's 5 threads with Oilers fans posting about how fantastic McDavids even strength production is but if you say anything about PP then, no no, he has zero responsability.

Lemieux had human garbage on the team during 2 of the years he had 80 PPP.

He’s doing “poorly?” How can you define “poor” as leading the league in points and being among the best in goals and assists, all while out playing his team tremendously....

See that’s the problem with your logic, or lack of. You say he’s playing poorly because of his teams performance, all while completely ignoring the fact that he has been on pace for the same production as last year, if not better.....he’s been doing his job, the Oilers coaching and management hadn’t, this isn’t basketball.

What does any of that have to do with what we are talking about? Are you once again blaming the PP on McDavid?

Exactly, and the fact that McDavid is dominating despite the man advantage is nothing short of amazing, but posters like you like to downplay it because Crosby has this unlimited grace period....

Hard to produce on the PP when your team is near dead last in opportunists and PP time, wouldn’t you say? What do you expect them to do? Draw penalties? Dive all over the place like Crosby did his first few years? Use your head my friend, it might surprise yourself.

 

[HenrikW]

Use your head my friend, it might surprise yourself.

You're taking the discussion out of context. Poorly on the powerplay, you know powerplay, the thing we were discussing? Perhaps you should take your own advice

Seeing as you are unable to respond to basic arguments it's not likely that this discussion will lead anywhere. More opportunities and PP time might result in more PPP for McDavid but it's irrelevant to the argument because Oilers convert by far the least number of PP's into goals.

McDavid is the best in the league despite of the team's powerplay. The even-strength production is most definately being cherry-picked by Oilers fans in thread after thread though, while absolving him of all responsability of our powerplay - talking about how outstanding he would be with +35 PPP "25 points ahead of everyone" as if he's not supposed to be one to drive it

If you think otherwise you're just another delusional homer

 

[GreatGonzo]

You're taking the discussion out of context. Poorly on the powerplay, you know powerplay, the thing we were discussing? Perhaps you should take your own advice

Seeing as you are unable to respond to basic arguments it's not likely that this discussion will lead anywhere. More opportunities and PP time might result in more PPP for McDavid but it's irrelevant to the argument because Oilers convert by far the least number of PP's into goals.

McDavid is the best in the league despite of the team's powerplay. The even-strength production is most definately being cherry-picked by Oilers fans in thread after thread though, while absolving him of all responsability of our powerplay - talking about how outstanding he would be with +35 PPP "25 points ahead of everyone" as if he's not supposed to be one to drive it

If you think otherwise you're just another delusional homer

You can’t expect a player to produce well on the PP without....
-a good supporting cast
-PP time
-PP opportunities

All The oilers lack, All pretty self explanatory, all in which your deciding to ignore. The evidence is right in front of your eyes.

Let me get this straight, it’s irrelevant that the Oilers are near the bottom of the league in time and opportunities on the man advantage, and McDavid should just be able to score with the little PP advantage he has? Wow.....you do realize the more opportunities you get on the PP, the more likely you will produce, right? Shocking...I know.

Again with that logic of yours, how you can “cherry pick” ES production is beyond me. It sounds more like your lack of understanding of the simple fact that the oilers as a team aren’t good, but McDavid is amazing. He can’t carry the PP on his own, especially when he is rarely on the PP.....wouldn’t you say? Fact is he can’t depend on the man advantage, and instead producers in the hardest way, 5v5....what makes it even better? He’s the best player 5v5.....oh, but he “sucks” on the PP, which is clearly his fault and everything else isn’t valuable.

Right, as opposed to a fan with little knowledge on how the game actually works, ignores great production, only to focus on one aspect of scoring, while blaming one player for it, while that one player is the only player on that team that is actually playing....

Ya I’m delusional....

 

[HenrikW]

You can’t expect a player to produce well on the PP without....
-a good supporting cast
-PP time
-PP opportunities

All The oilers lack, All pretty self explanatory, all in which your deciding to ignore. The evidence is right in front of your eyes.

Let me get this straight, it’s irrelevant that the Oilers are near the bottom of the league in time and opportunities on the man advantage, and McDavid should just be able to score with the little PP advantage he has? Wow.....you do realize the more opportunities you get on the PP, the more likely you will produce, right? Shocking...I know.

Again with that logic of yours, how you can “cherry pick” ES production is beyond me. It sounds more like your lack of understanding of the simple fact that the oilers as a team aren’t good, but McDavid is amazing. He can’t carry the PP on his own, especially when he is rarely on the PP.....wouldn’t you say? Fact is he can’t depend on the man advantage, and instead producers in the hardest way, 5v5....what makes it even better? He’s the best player 5v5.....oh, but he “sucks” on the PP, which is clearly his fault and everything else isn’t valuable.

Right, as opposed to a fan with little knowledge on how the game actually works, ignores great production, only to focus on one aspect of scoring, while blaming one player for it, while that one player is the only player on that team that is actually playing....

Ya I’m delusional....

Who said nothing but PP is valuable? Who said even strength doesn't matter? Who Said McDavid isn't amazing? None of the points you raised is something that I have claimed so good job at wasting your time making up nonsense.

14.3% PP has still nothing to do with time or opportunities but you're just too dumb to argue with. I gave you plenty of examples of teams that don't have any better players but are performing better on the PP and you ignored to response to that.

Whether or not you chose to think so, McDavid is supposed to lead the PP. However you can't discuss this without being super insecure so we're done. You are ignored.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

McDavid: 2 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles
Crosby: 9 healthy seasons, 2 scoring titles

Yet some people like to act that comparison between Crosby and McDavid is "AINEC" in favour of Crosby.

Crosby was coasting for those other 7 seasons, has that grace period effect about him