Mcdavids or Crosby, first 3 seasons

Who’s first 3 seasons we’re more impressive


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Sidney the Kidney

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But that still doesn’t change the fact that he was on the PP more so than a lot of players that year. Crosby proved himself as a solid ES producer regardless later on, but ‘07 was such a high scoring year for him because of the PP, I wouldn’t even say that’s was his best season, maybe would put it as his 3rd.

Again focusing on 2007 compared to 2017, McDavid has the better season, it may not be by much, but his superior ES production mixed with his lack of team support I feel our weighs the fact that Crosby scored 20 more points, mainly because of all the PP time

I feel as though you're not even reading what I'm posting these past couple of posts. I'm literally talking about Crosby's ES production, and how the reason it's lower than McDavid's is due to less minutes at ES.

Crosby scored 59 points averaging 14:40 at ES over 79 games. McDavid scored 71 (or 72, don't have time to look up the exact number) points averaging 17:17 at ES over 82 games. Crosby's actual production per minute would put him pretty much equal to McDavid when you normalize for ES ice time.

It's not even about the PP points or his raw totals being ahead of McDavid. It's literally a discussion about how if you normalize Crosby's ES time to the same amount McDavid played last year, they're producing pretty much the same at ES.

I mean he had 85 points his first year, and followed it up as one of the top centers in the league the next year when Crosby was out. Having a guy like that on the PP with you is no doubt beneficial. Draisaitl isn’t Malkin, and will never be on his level, nort even close, especially considering that at their best, Malkin is arguably just as great as Crosby. The comparisons between those two needs to stop, because the value they both hold to their team and the impact they have is as different as night and day.

But now you're talking about the prime Malkin, not the rookie one. Rookie Malkin had 85 points in a year where there were multiple 100 point guys. Since Crosby seems to be "punished" for how high scoring that year was, why isn't Malkin's 85 points put into the same context?

I feel as though the term "relative to his peers" is only applied to Crosby in these discussions. Because Malkin "relative to his peers" produced less that year than Draisaitl "relative to his peers" produced last season. Yet you're completely dismissing that fact because of what Malkin did in subsequent seasons.
 

GreatGonzo

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I feel as though you're not even reading what I'm posting these past couple of posts. I'm literally talking about Crosby's ES production, and how the reason it's lower than McDavid's is due to less minutes at ES.

Crosby scored 59 points averaging 14:40 at ES over 79 games. McDavid scored 71 (or 72, don't have time to look up the exact number) points averaging 17:17 at ES over 82 games. Crosby's actual production per minute would put him pretty much equal to McDavid when you normalize for ES ice time.

It's not even about the PP points or his raw totals being ahead of McDavid. It's literally a discussion about how if you normalize Crosby's ES time to the same amount McDavid played last year, they're producing pretty much the same at ES.



But now you're talking about the prime Malkin, not the rookie one. Rookie Malkin had 85 points in a year where there were multiple 100 point guys. Since Crosby seems to be "punished" for how high scoring that year was, why isn't Malkin's 85 points put into the same context?

I feel as though the term "relative to his peers" is only applied to Crosby in these discussions. Because Malkin "relative to his peers" produced less that year than Draisaitl "relative to his peers" produced last season. Yet you're completely dismissing that fact because of what Malkin did in subsequent seasons.
Why does adjusted stats matter at all in this situation? Half of Crosby’s point totals were while on the man advantage....why does it matter that he wasn’t seeing the same ES minutes? He had the opportunities and took advantage of it.

Why is this not in favor of McDavid? You basing your decision on stats that aren’t real. Crosby didnt finish the season with that many points or that many ES minutes, why must we keep talking about a scenario where he COULD HAVE finished, but realistically he didn’t.

Yes the raw totals have Crosby being better, what’s more confusing is how McDavid had better totals than Crosby his third year, yet Crosby is seen as better due to playoffs, if your going to add context to anything that against McDavid, then do the same thing for Crosby. The context of his 120 point season is that he had half of his production on the PP, in a slightly higher scoring era, and was bounced out of the first round, where as McDavid at least made it to the second, but then we just get to look at the total and not go deeper, it’s hypocritical.

It was one year apart, by point is that Crosby obviously had a very talented and very soon to be high level player on his own team, on PP. that can’t he just ignored because he hadn’t peaked yet, he finished with 85 points(mainly PP as well) because Crosby and him tore up the man advantage that year.

I think within that, it’s close. I think what makes McDavid more impressive is that he’s only 20, and already separating himself quite significantly, especially in terms of his own teammates.
 
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daver

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Why is this not in favor of McDavid? You basing your decision on stats that aren’t real. Crosby didnt finish the season with that many points or that many ES minutes, why must we keep talking about a scenario where he COULD HAVE finished, but realistically he didn’t.

The lack of awareness is startling.
 
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daver

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It was one year apart, by point is that Crosby obviously had a very talented and very soon to be high level player on his own team, on PP. that can’t he just ignored because he hadn’t peaked yet, he finished with 85 points(mainly PP as well) because Crosby and him tore up the man advantage that year.

I think within that, it’s close. I think what makes McDavid more impressive is that he’s only 20, and already separating himself quite significantly, especially in terms of his own teammates.

Mmmmm.....

Crosby 61 PP points, Malkin PP 40 points.... They tore it up?

McDavid 71 ES points, Draisaitl 50 ES points.... McDavid separately himself significantly from his teammate?
 
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bathdog

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Sure one can, be not based on a pace argument. I understand the whole
Playoff side of things and how did was “better.” But in the end if a stanley cup and Conn Smythe is more valuable, then that opens up a whole other argument.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. Crosby literally produced at a higher ppg RS + PO combined (unless scoring is easier in the playoffs).

Why does adjusted stats matter at all in this situation? Half of Crosby’s point totals were while on the man advantage....why does it matter that he wasn’t seeing the same ES minutes? He had the opportunities and took advantage of it.

Why is this not in favor of McDavid? You basing your decision on stats that aren’t real. Crosby didnt finish the season with that many points or that many ES minutes, why must we keep talking about a scenario where he COULD HAVE finished, but realistically he didn’t.

If the main argument is ES production it's very relevant that he played in a different environment, which ultimately led to less ES points in favor of PP points.

I'm not sure you realize this, but the current season is the highest avg ES GPG since the 95-lockout, with 16/17 being the 5th highest (2nd highest since 97/98).

This season isn't even over, there are currently 27 players with 50 ESP or more, there are 50 players with 45 ESP or more. Same numbers for 06/07 is 22 players, and 38 players, despite being a higher scoring environment.

And I do find value in ES production, and think McDavid is the best player since I can remember at that stage of career.

It was one year apart, by point is that Crosby obviously had a very talented and very soon to be high level player on his own team, on PP. that can’t he just ignored because he hadn’t peaked yet, he finished with 85 points(mainly PP as well) because Crosby and him tore up the man advantage that year.

I think within that, it’s close. I think what makes McDavid more impressive is that he’s only 20, and already separating himself quite significantly, especially in terms of his own teammates.

Keyword: soon to be.

They're about the same age.

So we're not gonna hold it against him that they missed the playoffs because the team is bad (I obviously don't), but we're also going to give him additional credit for standing out on a bad team?
 

GreatGonzo

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The lack of awareness is startling.
Your constant needing to change the argument and going great lengths to defend Crosby is startling, I’m just calling it the way it is.
Mmmmm.....

Crosby 61 PP points, Malkin PP 40 points.... They tore it up?

McDavid 71 ES points, Draisaitl 50 ES points.... McDavid separately himself significantly from his teammate?
they had the number 5th best PP in the league that year, with the most PP chances and PP time, with Crosby having the most PP points(with Gonchar 6th and Malkin 11th). Is that not dominant enough for you?

One is not like the other, you don’t see that? You think McDavid having 21 more ES points than Draisaitl is the same as Crosby having 21 more PP points on one the best PPs? Wow....
I have absolutely no idea what that means. Crosby literally produced at a higher ppg RS + PO combined (unless scoring is easier in the playoffs).



If the main argument is ES production it's very relevant that he played in a different environment, which ultimately led to less ES points in favor of PP points.

I'm not sure you realize this, but the current season is the highest avg ES GPG since the 95-lockout, with 16/17 being the 5th highest (2nd highest since 97/98).

This season isn't even over, there are currently 27 players with 50 ESP or more, there are 50 players with 45 ESP or more. Same numbers for 06/07 is 22 players, and 38 players, despite being a higher scoring environment.

And I do find value in ES production, and think McDavid is the best player since I can remember at that stage of career.



Keyword: soon to be.

They're about the same age.

So we're not gonna hold it against him that they missed the playoffs because the team is bad (I obviously don't), but we're also going to give him additional credit for standing out on a bad team?

He produced at a higher rate when comparing playoffs AND regular season, but you have to add the playoffs for it to benefit Crosby, while that shafts McDavid quite a bit. I was also referring to the poster who said he was “on pace” for a certain number of points and how that number should be taken into account.

Exactly, but why isn’t that being used as a negative? McDavid being able to produce at the level he has without having little PP opportunities I feel speaks louder than a player who stacked on PP assists like no other.

Yes and that truly is what incredible given how low scoring as been lately, but once again the PP is benefitting Crosby this time around just as much as it did before, where as McDavid doesn’t have that benefit, and is still doing better.
 
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daver

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they had the number 5th best PP in the league that year, with the most PP chances and PP time, with Crosby having the most PP points(with Gonchar 6th and Malkin 11th). Is that not dominant enough for you?

Draisatl being 8th in points last year and 2nd in playoff PPG is not dominant enough for you?
 

bathdog

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Exactly, but why isn’t that being used as a negative? McDavid being able to produce at the level he has without having little PP opportunities I feel speaks louder than a player who stacked on PP assists like no other.

It's not a negative, it's just getting blown out of proportion.

Yes and that truly is what incredible given how low scoring as been lately, but once again the PP is benefitting Crosby this time around just as much as it did before, where as McDavid doesn’t have that benefit, and is still doing better.

What? This is literally the 4th highest scoring season since the 95-lockout, and 2nd highest scoring season since the 05-lockout. I didn't even realize, but it's actually marginally higher than 06/07 overall. And since there aren't a ton more PP opportunities it's ES scoring that's trending upwards pretty strongly.

The past two seasons, McDavid 2 full significant seasons, have seen league wide ES scoring thats:
6.3% higher than peak Crosby (11-13).
8.3% higher than peak Ovechkin (08-10).
18.5% higher than peak Forsberg (02-04).
 

Turin

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No. That was you not following up with the actual conversation and post that I was quoting. It’s ok though, just next time actually know what your referring to

love this logic....

It’s the lack of context you guys like to dance around. McDavid isn’t in the playoffs because of the team around him being garbage, yet he is going to walk away with two Scoring titles.

No one taking anything away from Crosbys third season, it’s the fact that his playoffs that year is some how being seen as superior to McDavids regular season. All your saying is it’s more valuable to play 53 regular season games, then have a great playoff to losing in the SCF than to lead the league in scoring and possibly be a Hart consistency/Winner.

Ya talk about flip flopping.

McDavid will play 82 games this year and finish with ~106 points

Crosby in his 3rd year had 99 points in 73 games, 20 of those being playoff games. You can be mesmerized by the shininess of the Art Ross trophy all you want, nobody who’s willing to look at the performance is going to suggest McDavid had a slam dunk better 3rd year.
 

GreatGonzo

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:laugh:
McDavid will play 82 games this year and finish with ~106 points

Crosby in his 3rd year had 99 points in 73 games, 20 of those being playoff games. You can be mesmerized by the shininess of the Art Ross trophy all you want, nobody who’s willing to look at the performance is going to suggest McDavid had a slam dunk better 3rd year.
And once again we are using his playoffs and regular season numbers together to make the argument work better....yes let’s add together a players shortened season with his playoffs because it makes their production look closer, also one player wasn’t fortunate enough to make the playoffs while the other was, even though he missed nearly 30 games....what logic :laugh:

Shininess? The Art Ross is one of the most prestigious individual awards there is, and it takes more talent and hard work to bust through an 82 game season and score more than anyone, than it is to make it to the SCF, and lose.....which is what Crosby did.

It’s truly amazing how Crosbt misses 29 games, but he still had the better season because playoffs, where he still ultimately didn’t win....
It's not a negative, it's just getting blown out of proportion.



What? This is literally the 4th highest scoring season since the 95-lockout, and 2nd highest scoring season since the 05-lockout. I didn't even realize, but it's actually marginally higher than 06/07 overall. And since there aren't a ton more PP opportunities it's ES scoring that's trending upwards pretty strongly.

The past two seasons, McDavid 2 full significant seasons, have seen league wide ES scoring thats:
6.3% higher than peak Crosby (11-13).
8.3% higher than peak Ovechkin (08-10).
18.5% higher than peak Forsberg (02-04).
more like it’s beinf swept under the rug to avoid further conflict on your agenda.

I was referring to last season not this season.
 
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bathdog

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more like it’s beinf swept under the rug to avoid further conflict on your agenda.

Enlighten me, what's my agenda?

I was referring to last season not this season.

16/17 is the 8th highest scoring season post-lockout out of 13. The avg GPG of all seasons post-lockout is a massive 2% higher than the 16/17 season. You're going to make a serious (incredible was the word used) argument based on that?
 

GreatGonzo

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Enlighten me, what's my agenda?



16/17 is the 8th highest scoring season post-lockout out of 13. The avg GPG of all seasons post-lockout is a massive 2% higher than the 16/17 season. You're going to make a serious (incredible was the word used) argument based on that?
My “agenda” is that the player who produced half his points on the PP and scored 20 more points in a higher scoring time, shouldn’t be seen as better than a player who scored more than half his points at ES, scoring 100 points. Both led the league in points, both Hart and Art Ross winners, the difference is that one had more of an advantage of scoring more than the other, can you guess who?

But instead, it’s “oh, well it’s because he didn’t see enough time at ES, but if he did(adjusted)...he would have scored just as many points.” We are rewarding a player for scoring more when he’s on the advantage, and not just more....but most of his points, and with a better supporting cast.

The PP opportunities were significantly more though between that 10 year span. And the Pens saw the most opportunities and ice time in the league......it was the perfect storm for Crosby.
 
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GreatGonzo

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Draisatl being 8th in points last year and 2nd in playoff PPG is not dominant enough for you?
That’s “dominating?” Are we dumbing down the definition of that term?

Where is Draisaitl this year compared to McDavid this year? Hmmm......

Your really trying to argue that the Pens PP wasn’t dominating that year, it’s astounding how you choose to ignore basic facts.
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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Mcdavid should get better on the PP then, he gets a full two minutes every time.

Crosby is out after a minute, if they havent scored by then.
 

CalgarySnow

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Until McDavid’s defence improves its Crosby all the way, the basketball player (Michael Jordan?) was lacking in either offence or defence so he went away and practiced until he was great in all areas of the game that’s what McDavid needs to do to be great (and turn up in the playoffs)
 

Fataldogg

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McDavid. First back to back Art Ross trophies since peak Jagr.

Crosby will never do that. Back to back scoring titles tilts it in McDavids favor
 
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Regal

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Mcdavid should get better on the PP then, he gets a full two minutes every time.

Crosby is out after a minute, if they havent scored by then.

The discussion is about last year's McDavid where he was 43rd in PP time on ice per game, with over 30 seconds fewer than Crosby has ever averaged, and still finished 8th in PP points
 
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GreatGonzo

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Until McDavid’s defence improves its Crosby all the way, the basketball player (Michael Jordan?) was lacking in either offence or defence so he went away and practiced until he was great in all areas of the game that’s what McDavid needs to do to be great (and turn up in the playoffs)
Crosby isn’t THAT great defensively to begin with, definitely not good enough to be anything significant. One can argue that McDavid is actually better defensively than Crosby was at the same age.

Michael Jordan didn’t lack in either, that’s why many find him to be the greatest. He was the best defensive player in ‘88 while being first team all defense from ‘88-‘93 and ‘96-‘98, all while being the NBA steal champion 3 times. If anything Jordan was better defensively in basketball than Crosby ever was in hockey.
 

McKappa

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Until McDavid’s defence improves its Crosby all the way, the basketball player (Michael Jordan?) was lacking in either offence or defence so he went away and practiced until he was great in all areas of the game that’s what McDavid needs to do to be great (and turn up in the playoffs)
What the actual f*** are you talking about, 10x scoring champion and 9x all defensive micheal jordan?

Also McDavids defense at age 21>Crosby's defense at age 21.
 

bathdog

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My “agenda” is that the player who produced half his points on the PP and scored 20 more points in a higher scoring time, shouldn’t be seen as better than a player who scored more than half his points at ES, scoring 100 points. Both led the league in points, both Hart and Art Ross winners, the difference is that one had more of an advantage of scoring more than the other, can you guess who?

It's close enough that it's open for debate.

But instead, it’s “oh, well it’s because he didn’t see enough time at ES, but if he did(adjusted)...he would have scored just as many points.” We are rewarding a player for scoring more when he’s on the advantage, and not just more....but most of his points, and with a better supporting cast.

The PP opportunities were significantly more though between that 10 year span. And the Pens saw the most opportunities and ice time in the league......it was the perfect storm for Crosby.

Crosby's PP numbers is why I personally prefer McDavid's 2nd season over Crosby's, but you're clearly blowing it out of proportion.

Of course Crosby would score more on ES with more ES TOI, that's common sense.

The fact that Pens were 5th, and not 1st or 2nd, speaks volumes about their otherwordly "dominance". You listing rookie Malkin as an outlier is silly.
 

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