Matthews vs Kucherov

[sparxx87]

And Backstrom made Ovechkin?
And Datsyuk made Zetterberg?

Linemates really tend to get blown out of proportion and seemingly mostly used when it suits one's argument.



I'm sure quotes supporting the other side of the argument can be dug up too, two quotes are hardly convincing proof.

Ovechkin benefits from Backstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg rarely played together?

Linemates are something to consider, but I agree, they’re often overblown. They’ve never been the basis for any argument I’ve made.

You’re sure that the people who say 87,97,34 are the top 3, also say that 87,97,86 are the top 3? That’s rather....interesting. You’re ‘sure’ quotes supporting the other side can be dug up. Care to do some digging?

Convincing proof doesn’t exist. It’s all subjective opinion and based on that quote, the top guys in the sport put Matthews there, not Kucherov. I agree with these subjective opinions and that’s all that matters to me, really.

If you’d like to argue you know more than them, or that we should listen to your opinion and ignore the professionals... well, good luck.

 

[McFlyingV]

Guilty as charged.



And Backstrom made Ovechkin?
And Datsyuk made Zetterberg?

Linemates really tend to get blown out of proportion and seemingly mostly used when it suits one's argument.



I'm sure quotes supporting the other side of the argument can be dug up too, two quotes are hardly convincing proof.



Having high lows is really important.

You look at some of the best players at each position post-lockout (Crosby, Lidstrom/Karlsson, Lundqvist/Luongo etc) you won't find many stretches of low lows.

The bolded is very true. Its one of the big reasons that McDavid won the Art Ross last year. Never going more than 2 consecutive games without a point leads to much better production by the end of the year when coupled with hot streaks. Every good player is going to hit a hot streak, but having short lows is usually what determines the best players in the league.

 

[sparxx87]

I'm making a point that something some idiot on the radio who never played hockey and who has ratings to maintain isn't proof of anything

In that business, credibility is key. That’s why he shared professional opinion and not his own.

What you’re doing is equivalent of shooting the messenger. Instead, why don’t you explain why these NHL execs are wrong and you’re right?

 

[djpatm]

Anonymous NHL "execs" that claim yet-to-break-70 points Matthews saying he's as good as Crosby when there are probably 6 or 7 players outplaying him this season shouldn't be NHL "execs"

 

[sparxx87]

Anonymous NHL "execs" that claim yet-to-break-70 points Matthews saying he's as good as Crosby when there are probably 6 or 7 players outplaying him this season shouldn't be NHL "execs"

I nominate you for the next vacancy.

 

[McFlyingV]

In that business, credibility is key. That’s why he shared professional opinion and not his own.

What you’re doing is equivalent of shooting the messenger. Instead, why don’t you explain why these NHL execs are wrong and you’re right?

Mactavish once said that Justin Schultz would be a future Norris winner.

 

[sparxx87]

Mactavish once said that Justin Schultz would be a future Norris winner.

Is that a comment that ‘nobody says otherwise’ or is that just one individuals opinion on his own player?

One person doesn’t make it a consensus opinion. Read the quote again, it’s very clear and specific.
Petrillo - “people pause and say ‘hold up’ when you mention those 3 together.”
Miller - “ I talk to people around the league all the time and nobody says that? It’s consensus that 87, 97, 34 are the top 3, in no particular order.”

None of the people who matter vary from 87, 97, 34 as the top 3 in the league. That reaffirms my opinion and that’s good enough for me.

If you think you’re smarter or see something the most credible minds don’t... well, have at it.

 

[djpatm]

If you think you’re smarter or see something the most credible minds don’t... well, have at it.

Yeah, it's called the stat sheet.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah, it's called the stat sheet.

Oh, I’ve heard of it.... but, if it was the only way to evaluate a player, why do teams spend hundreds of thousands every year to pay and fly scouts all over the world when the stats sheet is available on the Internet?

Seems like you could be saving the league millions with your theory?

 

[bathdog]

Ovechkin benefits from Backstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg rarely played together?

Datsyuk and Zetterberg played together during the RS of 07/08, that's Zetterberg's only premium RS. Datsyuk went on to have 2-3 in a row, so clearly Datsyuk made Zetterberg, right?

Only, once the playoffs rolled around in 07/08 they were split up and Zetterberg went on to have one of the most dominant runs of this era. Luck, you say? Maybe. Only, next year he went on to repeat that performance.

Linemates are something to consider, but I agree, they’re often overblown. They’ve never been the basis for any argument I’ve made.

Probably. I mean, one could take the following as linemates (at some point in time) being basis for your arguments, at least to some extent:

Stamkos > Nylander, etc etc.

Stats don’t account for the fact Nylander has been snake bitten, Stamkos is hot, and Namestnikov is much better than Zach Hyman. These are variables beyond the players control, thus, I evaluate the individual and their effect on a game.

Stamkos and Kucherov are dynamite together, no question...

You’re sure that the people who say 87,97,34 are the top 3, also say that 87,97,86 are the top 3? That’s rather....interesting. You’re ‘sure’ quotes supporting the other side can be dug up. Care to do some digging?

Pretty sure I never said that. I was referring to there being quotes where Kucherov is included in the best player in the world conversation while Matthews is not.

Convincing proof doesn’t exist. It’s all subjective opinion and based on that quote, the top guys in the sport put Matthews there, not Kucherov. I agree with these subjective opinions and that’s all that matters to me, really.

If you’d like to argue you know more than them, or that we should listen to your opinion and ignore the professionals... well, good luck.

Thanks for your well wishes. You were talking about Babcock recently... hmm.

How about this one?

Said Toronto coach Mike Babcock: “Kucherov is playing as good as anyone in the league.”

Babcock, though, should probably be ignored? We'll stick to listening to your professionals.

 

[McFlyingV]

Is that a comment that ‘nobody says otherwise’ or is that just one individuals opinion on his own player?

One person doesn’t make it a consensus opinion. Read the quote again, it’s very clear and specific.
Petrillo - “people pause and say ‘hold up’ when you mention those 3 together.”
Miller - “ I talk to people around the league all the time and nobody says that? It’s consensus that 87, 97, 34 are the top 3, in no particular order.”

None of the people who matter vary from 87, 97, 34 as the top 3 in the league. That reaffirms my opinion and that’s good enough for me.

If you think you’re smarter or see something the most credible minds don’t... well, have at it.

The point was hockey execs opinions aren't always in touch with reality, and shouldn't be taken as gospel, as it seems you are trying to push.

 

[42]

Funny how the only thing Leafs fans/Matthews supporters have is a reference to so and so said he is as good as Crosby and McDavid. Meanwhile stats overwhelmingly say that he isn't. I'll take the stats here.

 

[sparxx87]

Datsyuk and Zetterberg played together during the RS of 07/08, that's Zetterberg's only premium RS. Datsyuk went on to have 2-3 in a row, so clearly Datsyuk made Zetterberg, right?

Only, once the playoffs rolled around in 07/08 they were split up and Zetterberg went on to have one of the most dominant runs of this era. Luck, you say? Maybe. Only, next year he went on to repeat that performance.



Probably. I mean, one could take the following as linemates (at some point in time) being basis for your arguments, at least to some extent:









Pretty sure I never said that. I was referring to there being quotes where Kucherov is included in the best player in the world conversation while Matthews is not.



Thanks for your well wishes. You were talking about Babcock recently... hmm.

How about this one?



Babcock, though, should probably be ignored? We'll stick to listening to your professionals.

Neither were a product of the other, I never said they were?

Mention of linemates in the points discussion isn’t the same as making it the basis for my argument. The basis is overall play and contributions. I’ve been more than clear on that.

You said you could dig up quotes that spoke similarly of Kucherov. I haven’t heard or read any of them so I asked for you to provide them.

Nothing Babcock said was wrong, he’s on a ridiculous hot streak and Matthews was hurt. Do you think this also suggests the Leafs/Babcock would swap the two if given the opportunity?

 

[sparxx87]

The point was hockey execs opinions aren't always in touch with reality, and shouldn't be taken as gospel, as it seems you are trying to push.

The whole group of them are out of touch with reality? Interesting.

You’d have to be a complete fool to trade Matthews for Kucherov 1 for 1.

 

[sparxx87]

Funny how the only thing Leafs fans/Matthews supporters have is a reference to so and so said he is as good as Crosby and McDavid. Meanwhile stats overwhelmingly say that he isn't. I'll take the stats here.

‘So and so’ are the most credible opinions in the game.... unless you’re suggesting fans with internet access are more reliable?

 

[djpatm]

The whole group of them are out of touch with reality? Interesting.

You’d have to be a complete fool to trade Matthews for Kucherov 1 for 1.

Or the whole group of them are clambering to stroke Toronto fans egos.

 

[McFlyingV]

The whole group of them are out of touch with reality? Interesting.

You’d have to be a complete fool to trade Matthews for Kucherov 1 for 1.

The whole group? Did he say how many executives he talked to and what positions they were in and what teams they worked for?

I agree you would be foolish to make that trade when you consider position, years of team control, and age. That has no bearing on who the better player is currently, and its Kucherov.

 

[sparxx87]

Or the whole group of them are clambering to stroke Toronto fans egos.

....yeah, probably.

Think they have conference calls to discuss how best to pump the tires of the Toronto Maple Leafs? Probably.

I wonder what they’re all planning now?

 

[42]

‘So and so’ are the most credible opinions in the game.... unless you’re suggesting fans with internet access are more reliable?

I'm suggesting stats are more credible.

 

[sparxx87]

The whole group? Did he say how many executives he talked to and what positions they were in and what teams they worked for?

I agree you would be foolish to make that trade when you consider position, years of team control, and age. That has no bearing on who the better player is currently, and its Kucherov.

I wrote what he said, word for word. I’m sure you can find it on TSN if you’d like to hear for yourself. The point I took was that nobody around the league separates McDavid/Crosby from Matthews. “Nobody says that.” In response to Petrillo mentioning how some will pause and not put Matthews on that tier.

“Crosby, McDavid, Matthews are the top 3 players in the game, in no particular order.”

It’s pretty clear.

Curious, how would you evaluate McDavids play against the Dallas Stars the other night? He finished with 3pts (1g 2a)

 

[sparxx87]

I'm suggesting stats are more credible.

I’d question your qualifications.

Again, if stats were more credible than the eye test, teams wouldn’t put hundreds of thousands into both amateur and pro scouting when stats are available online.

 

[bathdog]

Neither were a product of the other, I never said they were?

Mention of linemates in the points discussion isn’t the same as making it the basis for my argument. The basis is overall play and contributions. I’ve been more than clear on that.

No you have not. You've been alluding to Kucherov's beneficial "circumstances" on several occasions.

You said you could dig up quotes that spoke similarly of Kucherov. I haven’t heard or read any of them so I asked for you to provide them.

Nothing Babcock said was wrong, he’s on a ridiculous hot streak and Matthews was hurt. Do you think this also suggests the Leafs/Babcock would swap the two if given the opportunity?

Fair enough.

NHL analyst Nick Kypreos went on a Canadian Sportsnet radio show recently and dropped a bombshell that likely stoked fans in Pittsburgh and Edmonton.

Kypreos wondered if Lightning wing Nikita Kucherov is the best player in the world?

That wasn’t a slight against Penguins’ Sidney Crosby or the Oilers’ Connor McDavid, widely considered the league’s top two stars. It’s a reflection on what Kucherov has done, his 37-goal season bringing a lost Lightning season back to life.

“I think he’s a top player in the world, there’s no question,” Kypreos said Friday in an interview. “We’ve got different looks now from McDavid, Crosby. But Kucherov is now in that conversation.”

 

[McFlyingV]

I wrote what he said, word for word. I’m sure you can find it on TSN if you’d like to hear for yourself. The point I took was that nobody around the league separates McDavid/Crosby from Matthews. “Nobody says that.” In response to Petrillo mentioning how some will pause and not put Matthews on that tier.

“Crosby, McDavid, Matthews are the top 3 players in the game, in no particular order.”

It’s pretty clear.

Curious, how would you evaluate McDavids play against the Dallas Stars the other night? He finished with 3pts (1g 2a)

Well he said he talks to people around the league all the time and nobody (that he talks to) says that. Thats a far cry from "nobody around the league separates those 3", considering we have no idea who these people are and how many people he's referring to. Regardless, that really doesn't change my opinion. Kucherov has been the best player in the league this year, and was arguably the best player in the 2nd half of last year.

His play was alright. Got frustrated and fed up with all the uncalled interference, hooks, and slashes he's taken all year and looked possessed for about 5 minutes. Aside from that it was a pretty average game for his standards. Few turnovers in the neutral zone that he was crucified for by a few select media members. Was on the ice for quite a few goals against, but was hardly the one to blame given the abysmal goaltending from Talbot and defensive play from guys like Klefbom and Russell.

 

[42]

I’d question your qualifications.

Again, if stats were more credible than the eye test, teams wouldn’t put hundreds of thousands into both amateur and pro scouting when stats are available online.

Is your eye saying Matthews is better than Kucherov? Cause mine is saying Kucherov is better and the stats back it up. That's good enough for me. I don't need to rely on the opinion of others to tell me who is the better player.

 

[sparxx87]

No you have not. You've been alluding to Kucherov's beneficial "circumstances" on several occasions.



Fair enough.

Stats as the premise for your argument is very different from taking that into consideration as another variable.

I’ve made probably 500 posts in the last 8-10 months on Matthews. I don’t care to reiterate every thought I have in this particular discussion. No matter how insightful or intelligent the scouting report, it will always be disregarded or quoted with some sort of stat. It’s proven to be a waste of time and I won’t bother with it again on the main boards.

Kucherov has been dynamite, but it doesn’t change my philosophy on how to build a winning hockey team. Look at the past 10-15 cup champs - every one of them has a complete, elite centreman that plays both sides of the puck. That’s my reasoning. Agree or disagree, but this conversation has run its course.