McFlyingV
Registered User
He was a very good player, but I still think Kane has been the better player throughout their careers, even if not by a significant amount.
Matthews vs Kucherov
- Thread starter flamesforcup
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Remember when Matthews literally carried the leafs to the playoffs last season as a rookie.
Funny enough, I was arguing with a poster who called me on “let’s compare credentials”... we came to realize we would have actually played against each other in junior. We’ve kept contact and actually went to a Wings game together last year.Oh look at this guy he "played" high level hockey. Look him up on elite prospects or hockeydb.
There’s some very accomplished former players posting on this site. Most aren’t as arrogant and obnoxious as me.
Obviously you can form whatever opinion you want, that goes without saying but as a neutral fan in this debate, I just don't see how anyone can arrive to that conclusion. Kane's offense is what seperates him from Toews today but there was a good stretch in time where they literally produced at the same rate yet Toews was undoubtedly the much better player defensively and every single metric pointed towards him having the greater impact on the game.
McFlyingV
Registered User
And during that period you're speaking of the Hawks won 1 of their 3 cups. My original statement was that Toews was not even the 3rd best player on his own team for the Blackhawks through their 3 cup wins. True, they had similar stats for about a 3 year stretch which included Patrick Kanes worst season of his career, but Kane was the better of the 2 in 2 of their 3 cup seasons and playoffs.
Anyways we're arguing minor details at this point as neither were ever on Crosby's level aside from one unsustainable year from Kane, and neither were the best player on their team, which Keith was.
42
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This would have been a more revealing result if we could know how many of the votes for Matthews were from Leafs fans. I doubt there are many votes for him from non-Leafs fans.
Pyrophorus
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flamesforcup
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- Sep 5, 2017
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agreed. But i did not make a seperate option for 2 reasons, I did not want the thread to be filled with whiny Leafs fans and most of them dont vote in the correct option anyways even if you add it
that’s your interpretation of what I said? I asked you a question which you conveniently ducked - why do teams spend hundreds of thousands on scouts and scouting trips when they can find box scores and stats sheets on the Internet? Could it be, maybe, that there’s more to this game than numbers?
Not necessarily lying. But things can get "lost in translation", "truth with modification", or whatever else you want to call it.
I mean, one realistically can't make the argument that Matthews along with Crosby and McDavid are the 3 best forwards/centers/players in the world.
There is no way Malkin can be left off (while Matthews is on) if last year is considered, and there is no way Crosby can be on (while Matthews is on) if only this year is considered. Malkin over the past two years is around 0.20ppg above Matthews, and yes I realize Matthews has progressed but if you sample size is 20 games then Crosby should not be on that list.
Then if all positions are concerned, Matthews over Karlsson is probably...
I asked you a question which you conveniently ducked - why do teams spend hundreds of thousands on scouts and scouting trips when they can find box scores and stats sheets on the Internet? Could it be, maybe, that there’s more to this game than numbers?
You said Kucherov needs to score 10-15 more points for you to consider him better. He is outpacing him by 25 points meaning he is helping his team get the puck in the net 25 more times. Please explain how Matthews makes up for this difference with "intangibles".
Hokinaittii
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- Aug 15, 2015
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And this is journalistic integrity? Truth with modification? That’s how you get insider scoops, by putting your own spin on it? Are you reading this before posting?
In your opinion.
Nobody was trying to keyhole a time frame to include or exclude anyone. Write a letter if you don’t like it.
You asked for a number and I spit balled. I don’t need numbers, I consider him better almost regardless. He’d need to regress.
25 points in your adjusted time frame.
Nobody said that, but again you’re ducking the question I asked you.
I already said that a centre can be favoured over a winger given their higher level of responsibility and a clear difference in defensive efforts can also be viewed as a differentiation (not sure that this is the case here until Matthews gets some kind of Selke recognition and/or Kucherov is universally viewed as not being defensively responsible like Jagr was or OV was).
But I view these things as making a forward with similar production to another "arguably" better, The most effective way a Top 6 forward can contribute to his team is offense, that is their primary role. Anything over a 10% difference makes the "2-way player" argument nonviable, IMO.
Your position that Kucherov literally could not score enough to make him better than Matthews is not worthy of further discussion.
If you’re not sure it’s because you’re not watching. Matthews gets Selke votes this year. Save this post and quote me if I’m wrong.
40 goals is good offense as a rookie, no?
10%? Source? Where are you pulling these numbers from? They’re your opinion, right?
Couldn’t outscore? No, again, you’re full of ****. I said Matthews would need to regress his overall game. Stop twisting my words and inform yourself.
You obviously don’t watch a lot of Matthews. “Not sure that’s the case here” re; his defensive game? You’re either not watching or don’t understand what you’re watching. Either way that’s a pretty foolish comment.
You ducked the question again?
Why do teams spend hundreds of thousands on scouting if all relevant information can be found online?
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What's your point? This means absolutely squat in terms of who is playing better right now or for the next little while.
Nobody is picking Matthews ahead of Kucherov right now for league MVP nor are the players picking Matthews over Kucherov for the Lindsay despite what scouting reports say.
That no amount of stats prove anything. The eye test is a thing and I’m sorry you don’t understand that.
According to Gord Miller, who has actual sources and has asked around the league, you’re wrong.
Who seems more credible?
Gord Miller;
Gord Miller (sportscaster) - Wikipedia
Or Daver;
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/members/daver.8941/
I have my opinion and it’s supported by those who I respect most. Sorry, Daver.
Pavel Datyuk's better defensive game in 2008/09 was good enough to move him past Crosby in MVP voting but not enough to make up the difference in offense between him and Malkin/OV.
I use that as gauge to how much a Selke winning forward can make up for a difference in offense. To think that an elite defensive forward can stop a goal being scored every four games vs. an average defensive forward is foolish. The difference between an elite goalie and an average goalie is worth about a goal every 2 to 3 games and it is their only job to stop pucks.
So 10% to me a clear line.
Because a Toronto-based private media outlet has no other motive than to provide objective opinions. I would love to have your pie-in-the-sky naivety.
Yeah, that’s it.
How do you think these sources would respond if he misrepresented what they said? Would a guy 30+ years in the business still have sources if that was his m.o?
Whose naive?
Bye now.Yeah, that’s it.
How do you think these sources would respond if he misrepresented what they said? Would a guy 30+ years in the business still have sources if that was his m.o?
Whose naive?
Like the whole "Toews is the best" BS, I am sure we will see Matthews' true value reflected in MVP voting. Toews was never nominated for the Hart nor was he the clear best player on his team during the Hawks Cup wins let alone the league.
If Matthews is voted behind Kucherov this year, will you admit that Kucherov was better?
I think you're onto something here.
Why do you think teams extensively review stats? Almost certainly have they reviewed the stats of the players they scout extensively before they proceed to scout them.
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