Matthews vs Kucherov

[daver]

Gord Miller on TSN radio in response to Petrillo mentioning how certain people exclude Matthews from the Crosby/McDavid tier -
“I speak to people around the league all the time, haven’t heard anyone say that? It’s consensus that 87, 97, and 34 are the 3 best players in the game, in no particular order.”

He’s probably lying too, though.

Had to look up your basis for your argument. Holy effing Christ. What a joke. In no way, shape or form does Matthews deserve to be on McDavid's tier, let alone Crosby's based on last year.

I suggest you connect with some Toews fanboys to learn how loud you will have to scream "TWO-WAY PLAY!!!" in the coming years.

 

[sparxx87]

Why do you think teams extensively review stats? Almost certainly have they reviewed the stats of the players they scout extensively before they proceed to scout them.

You’re absolutely full of ****. You’re often watching a bunch of kids who aren’t on anyones radar. Your job is to find and evaluate players beyond the known and beyond what’s available on the Internet.

That’s provably one of the dumbest posts I’ve ever read on here. Babcock said he wipes his ass with the stats sheet. You’ll hear similar sentiment from most coaches and managers.

Arizona and previously Florida are teams who put weight in stats. Look how that’s turned out for them.

You’re pretty bad at this bull ******* thing, huh?

 

[sparxx87]

Had to look up your basis for your argument. Holy effing Christ. What a joke. In no way, shape or form does Matthews deserve to be on McDavid's tier, let alone Crosby's based on last year.

I suggest you connect with some Toews fanboys to learn how loud you will have to scream "TWO-WAY PLAY!!!" in the coming years.

Sorry, Daver. You’re not credible. The people who make their living in the game are. You’re wrong.

I’d suggest you watch some Auston Matthews. He’s a treat.

 

[bathdog]

You’re absolutely full of ****. You’re often watching a bunch of kids who aren’t on anyones radar. Your job is to find and evaluate players beyond the known and beyond what’s available on the Internet.

That’s provably one of the dumbest posts I’ve ever read on here. Babcock said he wipes his ass with the stats sheet. You’ll hear similar sentiment from most coaches and managers.

Arizona and previously Florida are teams who put weight in stats. Look how that’s turned out for them.

You’re pretty bad at this bull ******* thing, huh?

Is it safe to assume you're not familiar with who the Leafs assistant GM is?

Shanahan said the Maple Leafs' analytical approach needs to improve, and Dubas will be a key to blending old and new ideas into a winning formula.

"Not to reflect on the past regime, but I think he brings a fresh perspective," Shanahan said. "What's important to me is that he's not just talking about it, he's living it.

"He has a great appreciation and understanding of analytics. But he has also married that to the complexities and instincts you have to have when you put a product on the ice. We brought Kyle in to have a positive influence on our entire organization. Information is power, and Kyle is great at gathering information. It's not just one specific job for him; I think he's somebody that wants to be involved in a lot of things."

 

[sparxx87]

Is it safe to assume you're not familiar with who the Leafs assistant GM is?

I’m very familiar. Do you know what stats he uses?

Bringing him up actually supports my opinion because they’ve created their own ways to track their players. They don’t use the generic stuff on the internet that you use. These numbers are built by a qualified hockey mind, watching the game.

There was a video last year with a white board behind Babcock containing a bunch of numbers foreign to the analytics community. Heavy shifts etc were things created by Dubas and the Leafs, and nobody else has access to them.

I commented on my opinion and gave pretty reputable sources who share it.

You told me that scouts look at stats to identify who to scout ( ) and now that the Leafs are big into stats, but have no idea what they are. (Nobody outside the organization does)

Solid.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Kucherov has been just a ridiculous beast since late February, and nothing below takes anything away from his stellar play since then.

That said, I do think he's been benefiting from playing in a great situation, perhaps moreso than we've thought. I also wouldn't expect to see him continuing to produce at anywhere near the levels we've seen of late.

Let's break his streak into 2 segments - pre and post Stamkos.

He finished last season carrying the lightning with 19g and 36p in his final 23gp last season with a 22.6% sh% - an outrageous stretch of play as he attempted to drag the bolts to the post season. But I do think his "carrying" during that stretch was a bit exaggerated, as Palat also stepped up big down that stretch. At ES, Palat had 18p during that stretch vs Kucherov's 21p. But Kucherov was a shark on the PP when paired with Drouin, and those points count just the same. There can be little doubt that he was far and away the bolts MVP last year.

This year, he's been playing with that same fire and confidence, and he's remained hot - still shooting at above 21% (and his linemates are shooting at 16% and 17%). With another 17g and 33p in 20gp this year, he's scoring at an even higher rate, but it's a bit more evident that he's not doing it alone, as he's got consistent partners at ES and on the PP.

All that combined with his ridiculous shooting percentages makes me think he'll come back to earth shortly. I think he and Matthews are fairly comparable offensively, with Matthews the slight edge as playing then more important position.

 

[daver]

All that combined with his ridiculous shooting percentages makes me think he'll come back to earth shortly. I think he and Matthews are fairly comparable offensively, with Matthews the slight edge as playing then more important position.

Matthews is currently Top 10ish in PPG. Kucherov, over the full season last year, was Top 4 with a clear gap between him and the remaining Top 10 scorers.

It would be something if Kucherov regressed to even a 1.25 PPG this year. That would mean he would be at a 1.12 PPG the rest of the way.

I think calling them "fairly comparable" offensively really has no foundation at this point.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Matthews is currently Top 10ish in PPG. Kucherov, over the full season last year, was Top 4 with a clear gap between him and the remaining Top 10 scorers.

It would be something if Kucherov regressed to even a 1.25 PPG this year. That would mean he would be at a 1.12 PPG the rest of the way.

I think calling them "fairly comparable" offensively really has no foundation at this point.

I think he'll score right around ~1.00 PPG the rest of the year. I think he'll fall around 90-95 points for the rest of the year, as he is dues for significant regression.

I would say it's unfair to compare point totals when the two players are in such different situations to produce. Matthews doesn't have a Stamkos. Matthews will finish around 70-80 points IMO which is fairly comparable to 90-95 with elite linemates.

 

[daver]

I think he'll score right around ~1.00 PPG the rest of the year. I think he'll fall around 90-95 points for the rest of the year, as he is dues for significant regression.

I would say it's unfair to compare point totals when the two players are in such different situations to produce. Matthews doesn't have a Stamkos. Matthews will finish around 70-80 points IMO which is fairly comparable to 90-95 with elite linemates.

Kucherov did not have Stamkos last year. You know that. Kucherov earned his 95 point pace last year which is about a 105 pace this year. If you think he will regress to last year's total, that is the figure to use.

 

[sparxx87]

Kucherov did not have Stamkos last year. You know that. Kucherov earned his 95 point pace last year which is about a 105 pace this year. If you think he will regress to last year's total, that is the figure to use.

How does one earn a pace?

 

[Fantomas]

If Kucherov's pace falls to PPG the rest of the year I will post a video of me eating my hat.

 

[Frosty415]

Kuch is better thus far, but Matthews still has a high upside.

 

[Frosty415]

THats really great. I’m sure Bolts fans are thrilled.

That has nothing to do with Bolt fans.

It's simply stating the obvious, that Kucherov IS better at the moment.

You seem to be getting super defensive, but you're the minority, as this poll clearly shows.

 

[sparxx87]

That has nothing to do with Bolt fans.

It's simply stating the obvious, that Kucherov IS better at the moment.

You seem to be getting super defensive, but you're the minority, as this poll clearly shows.

Obvious to who? You?

I’m not defensive. I’m frustrated that a new generation of fans who don’t seem to get it, gush over stats and numbers when the game was built without them. I feel a responsibility to help pass on what I’ve learned in my 25+ years and it’s frustrating that so many reject intelligent hockey logic in favour of numbers. I teach this game to kids and so many of them are on their phone doing what HF does; compare numbers and determine whose better. It’s silly.

It’s not how you build a team, it’s not how you evaluate a player.

HF polls are worth the price of admission. As I mentioned earlier, Gord Miller shared that his sources within the game have Matthews with Crosby and McDavid as the top 3 in the game, in no particular order. That’s my opinion and I’ll take that sort of qualified company any day.

 

[Master P]

Obvious to who? You?

I’m not defensive. I’m frustrated that a new generation of fans who don’t seem to get it, gush over stats and numbers when the game was built without them. I feel a responsibility to help pass on what I’ve learned in my 25+ years and it’s frustrating that so many reject intelligent hockey logic in favour of numbers. I teach this game to kids and so many of them are on their phone doing what HF does; compare numbers and determine whose better. It’s silly.

It’s not how you build a team, it’s not how you evaluate a player.

HF polls are worth the price of admission. As I mentioned earlier, Gord Miller shared that his sources within the game have Matthews with Crosby and McDavid as the top 3 in the game, in no particular order. That’s my opinion and I’ll take that sort of qualified company any day.

You'll agree with it only because he has matthews in the top 3 lmao.

 

[sparxx87]

You'll agree with it only because he has matthews in the top 3 lmao.

If you had an opinion that’s been taking shape for 6-8 months now... wouldn’t you feel reassurance that the most reputable people in the game shared such opinion?

If you think you have a particular knee injury, and you go see a doctor who also believes it to be that particular injury... How confident are you that you have that particular injury?

 

[Master P]

The most reputable people? You found one guy who shared your same opinion. You can cling on to that all you want if it makes you feel better. Didn't realize Gord Miller was the be all end all for rating hockey players. I guess that ends the debates.

 

[sparxx87]

The most reputable people? You found one guy who shared your same opinion. You can cling on to that all you want if it makes you feel better. Didn't realize Gord Miller was the be all end all for rating hockey players. I guess that ends the debates.

Why don’t you read the conversation or listen to the bit?

Petrillo - “When you add Matthews to the Crosby/McDavid tier people pause, say ‘hold up’ before”

Gord - “Who does? Not they don’t. I talk to people around the league all the time and nobody argues that. It’s consensus that 87, 97 and 34 are the top 3 in no particular order.”

But yeah, HF polls are more reliable. He’s probably lying or catering to the Toronto market, right?

 

[Master P]

Why don’t you read the conversation or listen to the bit?

Petrillo - “When you add Matthews to the Crosby/McDavid tier people pause, say ‘hold up’ before”

Gord - “Who does? Not they don’t. I talk to people around the league all the time and nobody argues that. It’s consensus that 87, 97 and 34 are the top 3 in no particular order.”

But yeah, HF polls are more reliable. He’s probably lying or catering to the Toronto market, right?

Yep, one guys opinion = truth apparently. I guess that does it.
Also I'd be willing to bet that the bolded is closer to the truth then you think.

 

[sparxx87]

Yep, one guys opinion = truth apparently. I guess that does it.
Also I'd be willing to bet that the bolded is closer to the truth then you think.

it wasn’t one guys opinion. He has close contact with coaches, managers, execs etc and was referring to that when saying ‘people around the league’... and everything is subjective. I tend to favour the individuals who’re paid for their opinion, especially when it’s one I agree with. Guys who are respected and qualified to make such statements.

Integrity is important when you’re in a position like that. You don’t make it 30+ years by lying or twisting words. Damien Cox does that. Dave Feschuck does that. Howard Berger does that... look where it’s got them.

TSN has the best hockey crew and aside from O’Neil, a pretty objective group. They’re respected and reliable. Far more than anonymous posters on a free forum.

 

[Master P]

it wasn’t one guys opinion. He has close contact with coaches, managers, execs etc and was referring to that when saying ‘people around the league’... and everything is subjective. I tend to favour the individuals who’re paid for their opinion, especially when it’s one I agree with. Guys who are respected and qualified to make such statements.

Integrity is important when you’re in a position like that. You don’t make it 30+ years by lying or twisting words. Damien Cox does that. Dave Feschuck does that. Howard Berger does that... look where it’s got them.

TSN has the best hockey crew and aside from O’Neil, a pretty objective group. They’re respected and reliable. Far more than anonymous posters on a free forum.

And I wonder how many coaches, managers, execs etc. don't share his opinion. Like you said everything is subjective so there isn't a definitive answer on the subject.

 

[sparxx87]

And I wonder how many coaches, managers, execs etc. don't share his opinion. Like you said everything is subjective so there isn't a definitive answer on the subject.

Based on who he spoke to? “Nobody says that” in response to keeping Matthews out of the top 3. If you’ve been listening to this crew for any amount of time, you know they don’t deal in rumours unless they explicitly state them as such. This wasn’t a rumor, it was a definitive statement based on his sources.

There isn’t a definitive answer, you’re right. But some opinions are more reliable than others.