Matthews vs Kucherov

[bathdog]

Stats as the premise for your argument is very different from taking that into consideration as another variable.

I’ve made probably 500 posts in the last 8-10 months on Matthews. I don’t care to reiterate every thought I have in this particular discussion. No matter how insightful or intelligent the scouting report, it will always be disregarded or quoted with some sort of stat. It’s proven to be a waste of time and I won’t bother with it again on the main boards.

Kucherov has been dynamite, but it doesn’t change my philosophy on how to build a winning hockey team. Look at the past 10-15 cup champs - every one of them has a complete, elite centreman that plays both sides of the puck. That’s my reasoning. Agree or disagree, but this conversation has run its course.

You asked me to provide a quote - I did. There was nothing statistical about it, sorry.

 

[sparxx87]

Is your eye saying Matthews is better than Kucherov? Cause mine is saying Kucherov is better and the stats back it up. That's good enough for me. I don't need to rely on the opinion of others to tell me who is the better player.

Nor should you... but what if your opinion had been taking shape for ~8 months and now you’re hearing NHL execs have the same one? Would that reassure you?

 

[dellzor]

Kucherov now and Kucherov in the future. Remember, Kucherov and Hedman nearly carried the Lightning to the playoffs without Stamkos

 

[93LEAFS]

Kucherov has probably been the best player in the world for the last 10 months or so. Now, I still wouldn't trade Matthews for him tomorrow, before even factoring in the contract differences. Elite centers of Matthews mold seem to be the key to building a long-term contender, and acquiring one outside of the very top of the draft is near impossible. The only U-25 centers who are even in the discussion with him were all top 10 picks, with Scheifele being the lowest. Guys like McDavid, Barkov, and Eichel were all top 3 picks.

Now, I'm not saying its easier to acquire a Kucherov, but its easier to find high-quality wings outside the top 3 of the draft and I simply put more value on the center in regards to roster construction. Now, if you think Kucherov is such a special winger in the Guy Lafleur mold and he can be your centerpiece forward for a cup, I won't fault you for it.

 

[sparxx87]

You asked me to provide a quote - I did. There was nothing statistical about it, sorry.

Nah, I appreciate it. I hope you also understand that Kypreos as an individual, isn’t the same as multiple independent individuals around the league.

Miller said “nobody says that.” In reference to some fans putting Matthews a tier below McDavid/Crosby. Of the multiple independent individuals, nobody challenged who the top 3 are.

Call him a liar, question his credibility, his sources etc. I’d say he isn’t in this business for this long without credibility.

 

[bathdog]

Nah, I appreciate it. I hope you also understand that Kypreos as an individual, isn’t the same as multiple independent individuals around the league.

Miller said “nobody says that.” In reference to some fans putting Matthews a tier below McDavid/Crosby. Of the multiple independent individuals, nobody challenged who the top 3 are.

Call him a liar, question his credibility, his sources etc. I’d say he isn’t in this business for this long without credibility.

There are at times people that question Pierre McGuire (I actually think he's pretty knowledgeable), he's been in the business long.

I would instantaneously disregard any list for best center/forward/player that includes Matthews but excludes Malkin.

 

[sparxx87]

There are at times people that question Pierre McGuire (I actually think he's pretty knowledgeable), he's been in the business long.

I would instantaneously disregard any list for best center/forward/player that includes Matthews but excludes Malkin.

Question his opinion, or question when he gives an insider ‘scoop’?

You won’t stay in the business long if you make **** up and claim a group of credible individuals told you this. It’ll catch up to you sooner or later. I believe Gord Miller is telling the truth.

Re; Malkin - that’s fair. I mean, it’s hard to argue your point, Geno is right there with Tavares, Kopitar etc. I was more just sharing the parroted opinion.

 

[daver]

NHL.com - Stats

At what point does a hot streak cease to be a hot streak?

 

[daver]

Question his opinion, or question when he gives an insider ‘scoop’?

You won’t stay in the business long if you make **** up and claim a group of credible individuals told you this. It’ll catch up to you sooner or later. I believe Gord Miller is telling the truth.

Re; Malkin - that’s fair. I mean, it’s hard to argue your point, Geno is right there with Tavares, Kopitar etc. I was more just sharing the parroted opinion.

You seem to be avoiding this question:

How much more must Kucherov outscore Matthews to make up for all the other things you feel Matthews brings?

 

[sparxx87]

You seem to be avoiding this question:

How much more must Kucherov outscore Matthews to make up for all the other things you feel Matthews brings?

I’m not avoiding it, I just don’t know. It’s hard for me to take an elite winger over an elite centre. 10-15 points with higher scoring linemates certainly won’t sway my opinion.

 

[daver]

I’m not avoiding it, I just don’t know. It’s hard for me to take an elite winger over an elite centre. 10-15 points with higher scoring linemates certainly won’t sway my opinion.

He is outpacing by 25 points over an 82 game season this year and last year.

 

[sparxx87]

He is outpacing by 25 points over an 82 game season this year and last year.

THats really great. I’m sure Bolts fans are thrilled.

 

[daver]

THats really great. I’m sure Bolts fans are thrilled.

Yeah, who needs those extra 25 goals in the net when I am sure that Matthews personally keeps out that many from his own net.

 

[sparxx87]

Yeah, who needs those extra 25 goals in the net when I am sure that Matthews personally keeps out that many from his own net.

25 goals isn’t 25 points.

It’s astonishing that so many hockey ‘fans’ have no clue about Auston Matthews. He’s a top 3 player in the game and the qualified opinions that matter, mirror that sentiment. I’m sorry you don’t see it.

 

[daver]

25 goals isn’t 25 points.

It’s astonishing that so many hockey ‘fans’ have no clue about Auston Matthews. He’s a top 3 player in the game and the qualified opinions that matter, mirror that sentiment. I’m sorry you don’t see it.

Just like the qualified opinons has Toews #1/2 for a few seasons.

And yes, 25 more points means 25 more goals went in the net.

 

[sparxx87]

Just like the qualified opinons has Toews #1/2 for a few seasons.

And yes, 25 more points means 25 more goals went in the net.

Yeah, just like that. He was right behind Crosby for a time.

25 goals can happen a multitude of ways. If you’d like to simplify it like that, go for it.

Now, I asked you; why do teams spend hundreds of thousands on scouts and scouting trips if we can simply evaluate the box score on the Internet?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Yeah, who needs those extra 25 goals in the net when I am sure that Matthews personally keeps out that many from his own net.

Over a full season yeah Matthews is expected to outscore the opposition by a greater amount than Kucherov and he has so far I believe

 

[McFlyingV]

Yeah, just like that. He was right behind Crosby for a time.

25 goals can happen a multitude of ways. If you’d like to simplify it like that, go for it.

Now, I asked you; why do teams spend hundreds of thousands on scouts and scouting trips if we can simply evaluate the box score on the Internet?

Oh dear lord. Toews wasn't even the 2nd best player on his team let alone in the league.

 

[sparxx87]

Oh dear lord. Toews wasn't even the 2nd best player on his team let alone in the league.

You can just call me Don Quixote, thanks.

....and I don’t agree. We have very different philosophies on the game of hockey and how to evaluate the players in it. Let’s leave it at that.

 

[McFlyingV]

You can just call me Don Quixote, thanks.

....and I don’t agree. We have very different philosophies on the game of hockey and how to evaluate the players in it. Let’s leave it at that.

I'm sure most Hawks fans who actually watched their team through those years will tell you Kane and Keith were better and more important players than Toews. I think your philosophy differs from far more than just me.

 

[NarcoPolo]

Oh dear lord. Toews wasn't even the 2nd best player on his team let alone in the league.

Thats complete BS.

From 2010/2011 - 2013/2014, Toews and Kane had near identical PPG paces yet one played center against tougher competition, killed penalties and was much better defensively.

 

[NarcoPolo]

I'm sure most Hawks fans who actually watched their team through those years will tell you Kane and Keith were better and more important players than Toews. I think your philosophy differs from far more than just me.

Keith I can buy. But theres no way that Kane was always the better/more impactful player than Toews. I feel like a lot of people forget how good a player he was a few years ago and now he just gets a ton of flack with the whole "top 100 players" debate (which is fair considering who was left off it)

 

[sparxx87]

I'm sure most Hawks fans who actually watched their team through those years will tell you Kane and Keith were better and more important players than Toews. I think your philosophy differs from far more than just me.

Yes, I’m aware 3/4 of HF has never sniffed high level hockey. I’m not too worried about it. You learn the game from the inside, I’m not surprised the casual fan doesn’t understand.

Again, the people who put Toews #2 behind Crosby are far more credible and far more accomplished. I’m comfortable with my opinions and only reassured when I see who shares them.

Bye now.

 

[McFlyingV]

Thats complete BS.

From 2010/2011 - 2013/2014, Toews and Kane had near identical PPG paces yet one played center against tougher competition, killed penalties and was much better defensively.

Its too bad they only won 1 of their 3 cups during those seasons. Good sample to pick from though given that those were the only seasons Toews even came close to maintaining that kind of production and just so happened to include Kane's one down season.

 

[McFlyingV]

Yes, I’m aware 3/4 of HF has never sniffed high level hockey. I’m not too worried about it. You learn the game from the inside, I’m not surprised the casual fan doesn’t understand.

Again, the people who put Toews #2 behind Crosby are far more credible and far more accomplished. I’m comfortable with my opinions and only reassured when I see who shares them.

Bye now.

Oh look at this guy he "played" high level hockey. Look him up on elite prospects or hockeydb.