Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

[Peiskos]

I think the leafs have done well in the draft and are looking like a good, young team but to say you rebuilt in two years and other teams should follow the leafs model is not true.

A team just starting their rebuild (going into year 1) is not going to have the pieces the leafs already had in place from previous drafts.

It's just not the same thing.

You speak of the pieces the Leafs already had in place from previous drafts and I have listed them for you, if you subtract the big 3, Nylander in 2014, Marner in 2015 and Matthews in 2016, the only top picks the Leafs have are Kadri from 2009 and Rielly from 2012.

Stop acting as if the Leafs had this amazing young core already in place, NO. It was the incredible luck at drafting 3 incredible picks starting from 2014 and onwards with Nylander, Marner and Matthews.

 

[Brobust]

I think looking at a guy like Kapanen will give you an idea of why the leafs were able to turn it around so quickly and are so successful today.

When I first watched Kapanen 2 years ago, I was sorely disappointed. This is guy we got for Kessel? He was one of those dime a dozen moderately skilled prospects who completely disappeared when he didn't have the puck and he wasn't strong enough or smart enough to get the puck either. I completely dismissed him as a future leaf. Waiver wire fodder in 3 years. A year goes by and I start hearing that he's PKing and playing more responsible hockey. I'm still not happy but at least we've got a guy who can play on the 4th line. I watched him play and was pleasantly surprised. Now, we have a guy who is often the speediest player on the ice, isn't afraid to get physical, forechecks well, is confident enough to make skill moves in the NHL and is primed to breakout when he gets moved up the lineup.

As a leafs fan, I was shocked. I had never seen this before. This is what player development looks like and it's one of the most important things when it comes to running a team. You need stars and a good development system for players who aren't stars.

 

[Tryblot]

You speak of the pieces the Leafs already had in place from previous drafts and I have listed them for you, if you subtract the big 3, Nylander in 2014, Marner in 2015 and Matthews in 2016, the only top picks the Leafs have are Kadri from 2009 and Rielly from 2012.

Stop acting as if the Leafs had this amazing young core already in place, NO. It was the incredible luck at drafting 3 incredible picks starting from 2014 and onwards with Nylander, Marner and Matthews.

That's your top d and best shutdown centre..

Take away those two and you aren't making the playoffs yet.

 

[naruto]

Flyers rebuilding strategy is better and is more honorable...

Flyers rebuild is really not that good. Their forwards prime and d prime will barely overlap so their window is quite small. Oh well.

 

[JetsHomer]

The Leafs haven’t won more games than they’ve lost in an 82 game season in 14 years

 

[BAM]

The Leafs haven’t won more games than they’ve lost in an 82 game season in 14 years

The Jets haven't won a single playoff game.

 

[BigGulpsEh]

The Leafs haven’t won more games than they’ve lost in an 82 game season in 14 years

What are your predictions for this year? Think they will end that streak?

 

[GodEmperor]

The Leafs haven’t won more games than they’ve lost in an 82 game season in 14 years

Just sent this information to Babcock and the boys, turns out they're calling it a year and giving it up, they didn't realize the steep history against them.

How many playoff games have the Jets won since they've been in the league again?

 

[JetsHomer]

The Jets haven't won a single playoff game.

Did I make a 500+ post thread about the Jets being THE example of a rebuild done right?

[mod]

 

[BFLO]

If you think the Leafs master plan was to be a "tire fire" for a decade you know nothing about the Leafs, they had management that clearly tried and wanted to win, a team with the plan of tanking doesn't bring in Phil Kessel to score goals and win them games. Or Dion Phaneuf who at the time was considered a future #1 D man for this team.

Also can you please point out the "decades worth" of top 5 and top 10 picks you speak of? the only top 5-10 picks I see on the Leafs roster are Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Rielly...and the oldest of those was drafted in 2009. Nice try with the "decades worth" comment though.

You quoted my post. But did you read it? I said REGARDLESS OF THE INTENTION OF MANAGEMENT THE LEAFS WERE BAD FOR A DECADE. Everyone knows it wasn't their plan to be awful, until Shanny came in.

My question is how does that make your situation better? I think it makes it worse. You were only bad on purpose for 1-2 seasons. You were awful by accident for the rest, which was the better part of a decade outside of 1 fluke lockout shortened season.

a decades worth? nope. more like a 3 years worth. kadri, rielly and nylander were the only top5/top10 picks u are referring to

Marner? JVR(traded 1 for 1 luke schenn #5 overall)?

The Leafs "model" rebuild started when they hired Shannahan.

All the other rebuilds/re-tools before that were complete failures.

The Shannahan era Leafs are what teams should model their rebuilds after. No one is arguing that the previous attempts at a re-tool/rebuild were successful.

I don't know why people are trying to deny how successful Shannahan has been. He hired the right management and they have completely turned the team around. They didn't inherit some goldmine ready to cash in, they built the current Leafs almost entirely from scratch.

So If GM Botteril is successful with the Sabres, then the rebuild started in 2017? Everything that came before doesn't count because it was a failure?

 

[rent free]

Marner? JVR(traded 1 for 1 luke schenn #5 overall)?

marner was after we announced the rebuild and trading schenn for jvr isn't rebuilding at all. its a lateral move

 

[LouJersey]

So, the Leafs are 6th in the league in terms of points. Definitely a good or even a contender team.

But looking back just two years ago, the Leafs were a dumpster fire and the worst team in hockey. What can the current rebuilding teams (Oilers, Arizona, Detroit etc...) learn from the Toronto experience?

Four picks in the top eight should make any team a contender, especially 3 in the top 5.

 

[joe dirte]

Did I make a 500+ post thread about the Jets being THE example of a rebuild done right?

The salt is real

I thin tgat was meant to reference the rebuild started 2 or 3 years ago though. there is no doubt their management has failed 15 years ago, and 10 years ago, and even 4 years ago.

but they were a basement team 2 years ago, and they're a near certainty for 100 points, on pace for almost 110. they're building on a pretty successful year last year, proving that it wasnt a flash in the pan.

on top of that, the leafs management has built one ofnthe best farm teams in the league, absolutely blowing away the competition with the tightest d in the AHL by a country mile. their d is a little thin and that's their only real weakness, and it appears management is taking care of that.

clearly they're doing quite a few things right these days.

 

[LouJersey]

I thin tgat was meant to reference the rebuild started 2 or 3 years ago though. there is no doubt their management has failed 15 years ago, and 10 years ago, and even 4 years ago.

but they were a basement team 2 years ago, and they're a near certainty for 100 points, on pace for almost 110. they're building on a pretty successful year last year, proving that it wasnt a flash in the pan.

on top of that, the leafs management has built one ofnthe best farm teams in the league, absolutely blowing away the competition with the tightest d in the AHL by a country mile.

clearly they're doing quite a few things right these days.

They've had six top eight picks in the past ten years. No offense but they should be doing this well by now.

 

[joe dirte]

They've had six top eight picks in the past ten years. No offense but they should be doing this well by now.

and the biggest impact players from there are all within the last few years.

again, what happened 10 years ago is not relevant to the statement about what they started a couple of years ago.

 

[Brobust]

They've had six top eight picks in the past ten years. No offense but they should be doing this well by now.

NJ has had 4 top 10 picks in the last 6 years. Still mediocre.

???

 

[LouJersey]

and the biggest impact players from there are all within the last few years.

again, what happened 10 years ago is not relevant to the statement about what they started a couple of years ago.

Well Kadri and JVR return for Schenn should count no? Reilly in that group?

 

[LouJersey]

NJ has had 4 top 10 picks in the last 6 years. Still mediocre.

???

Not sure ask a Devils fan.

 

[BFLO]

marner was after we announced the rebuild and trading schenn for jvr isn't rebuilding at all. its a lateral move

[mod]

2008 Luke Schenn #5 (from NYI, Toronto had the #7 pick) Turned into JVR#2 overall
2009 Nazem Kadri #7
2012 Morgan Rielly #5
2014 Willy Nylander #8
2015 Marner #4
2016 Matthews #1

Are those players on the Leafs roster today? Yes.
Were they picked in the top5/top10? Yes.
Is 8 years the better part of a decade? Yes.

Did you obtain those draft positions through the intent of management to rebuild, and in other cases completely by accident? Yes and Yes.

The intent doesn't matter, you still drafted in the top5/top10 for a decade. You're still reaping the benefits of that.

 

[joe dirte]

Well Kadri and JVR return for Schenn should count no? Reilly in that group?

was it all bad from 05 to 2015? no. most of it was.

but we are talking rebuild. yes they kept some players. gutted many. that's pretty typical isn't it? it seems to me like they kept the right ones don't you think? god rid of the right ones too. right? seeya Phaneuf?

 

[LouJersey]

was it all bad from 05 to 2015? no. most of it was.

but we are talking rebuild. yes they kept some players. gutted many. that's pretty typical isn't it? it seems to me like they kept the right ones don't you think?

A rebuild is simple when when you have six top 8 picks in ten years, should have been 8.

 

[rent free]

[mod]

2008 Luke Schenn #5 (from NYI, Toronto had the #7 pick) Turned into JVR#2 overall
2009 Nazem Kadri #7
2012 Morgan Rielly #5
2014 Willy Nylander #8
2015 Marner #4
2016 Matthews #1

Are those players on the Leafs roster today? Yes.
Were they picked in the top5/top10? Yes.
Is 8 years the better part of a decade? Yes.

Did you obtain those draft positions through the intent of management to rebuild, and in other cases completely by accident? Yes and Yes.

The intent doesn't matter, you still drafted in the top5/top10 for a decade. You're still reaping the benefits of that.

we weren't rebuilding in 2012 and 2014 and 2009 was a different rebuild. i agree with you that we are reaping the benefits but you're wrong in implying that we've been rebuilding for a decade.

 

[joe dirte]

This good year IMO was basically inevitable with all the high draft picks is my point. You guys were bound to be good eventually. The past three seasons you still haven't done anything.

okay let me ask you this. do you think they've done a great job the last 3 years?

do you think they've done well gutting bad contracts?

how about getting some amazing players with their picks? have they flubbed any first round picks recently? do you see some later round picks starting to be successful already? how about picking up good young players outside the draft like zaitsev, Rosen, etc?

how about stocking the cupboards? do you see them filling their holes?

they were a basement team just 2 years ago, who many predicted would require 5+ years to recover. would you say theyve made a lot ofbgreat moves to get where they are now?

thats all that's being said.

 

[joe dirte]

This good year IMO was basically inevitable with all the high draft picks is my point. You guys were bound to be good eventually. The past three seasons you still haven't done anything.

well going from dead last to a 110 point team (or so) is something, don't you think?

 

[Maplebeasts]

A rebuild is simple when when you have six top 8 picks in ten years, should have been 8.

That is exactly why it wasn't a rebuild until 2014. All of our trades were "win now moves" before then and the draft strategy was dominated by going after big, tough character players over speed and skill. We didn't really start building for the future until after Shanahan became president.