Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

[Baxterman]

No one said that but you have to make the playoffs in order to get a chance in order to win the Cup. You can't say a team 6th in the league has a 0% chance at winning the cup that makes absolutely zero sense. Unlikely to win the Cup?? Definitely. It'll be a challenge to come out of the East, but never count out a Mike Babcock coached team.

I can say what I like actually and Mike Babcock has had plenty of teams that haven't won Cups so I will happily count his team out.

 

[MattySnipes]

I can say what I like actually and Mike Babcock has had plenty of teams that haven't won Cups so I will happily count his team out.

Sorry then bud, I guess you'll have to excuse me then because I don't care about your opinion.

 

[Peiskos]

Ok fine, you guys want to quibble about the definition of rebuild. You got me, the Leafs weren't "rebuilding" for the entirety of the time post lock out. But the Leafs were in the dumpster for a decade regardless of the intention of management.

What I'm saying is that there is no 2 year quick fix blue print to follow.

The Leafs blue print was:
1. Be a tire fire for a decade(acquiring an embarrassing amount of top5/top10's)
2. Hire the right management (shanny), who then hires the right coach and gm.
3. Tank and get a superstar 1st overall player
4. Use a decades worth of top 5/top10 picks/players and finally turn it around and make the playoffs.

If you think the Leafs master plan was to be a "tire fire" for a decade you know nothing about the Leafs, they had management that clearly tried and wanted to win, a team with the plan of tanking doesn't bring in Phil Kessel to score goals and win them games. Or Dion Phaneuf who at the time was considered a future #1 D man for this team.

Also can you please point out the "decades worth" of top 5 and top 10 picks you speak of? the only top 5-10 picks I see on the Leafs roster are Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Rielly...and the oldest of those was drafted in 2009. Nice try with the "decades worth" comment though.

 

[rent free]

Ok fine, you guys want to quibble about the definition of rebuild. You got me, the Leafs weren't "rebuilding" for the entirety of the time post lock out. But the Leafs were in the dumpster for a decade regardless of the intention of management.

What I'm saying is that there is no 2 year quick fix blue print to follow.

The Leafs blue print was:
1. Be a tire fire for a decade(acquiring an embarrassing amount of top5/top10's)
2. Hire the right management (shanny), who then hires the right coach and gm.
3. Tank and get a superstar 1st overall player
4. Use a decades worth of top 5/top10 picks/players and finally turn it around and make the playoffs.

a decades worth? nope. more like a 3 years worth. kadri, rielly and nylander were the only top5/top10 picks u are referring to

 

[AvatarAang]

Matthews is as good as Kopitar and Andersen is as good as Quick. The Leafs also have better depth upfront and it's not even close. The Kings actually could not score much either of their cup years. Is Carter being very slightly better than Marner or Nylander going to matter much with a guy like Connor Brown in a bottom 6 role? The depth is sick.

Okay but who on the leafs is even remotely close to Doughty?

Reilly is going to be a stud #1, but even at his best he will never reach Doughty's level.

Until the Leafs solve their need for a legit #1D like Doughty they will never be a serious cup contender.

 

[SillyRabbit]

The Leafs "model" rebuild started when they hired Shannahan.

All the other rebuilds/re-tools before that were complete failures.

The Shannahan era Leafs are what teams should model their rebuilds after. No one is arguing that the previous attempts at a re-tool/rebuild were successful.

I don't know why people are trying to deny how successful Shannahan has been. He hired the right management and they have completely turned the team around. They didn't inherit some goldmine ready to cash in, they built the current Leafs almost entirely from scratch.

 

[Tryblot]

If you think the Leafs master plan was to be a "tire fire" for a decade you know nothing about the Leafs, they had management that clearly tried and wanted to win, a team with the plan of tanking doesn't bring in Phil Kessel to score goals and win them games. Or Dion Phaneuf who at the time was considered a future #1 D man for this team.

Also can you please point out the "decades worth" of top 5 and top 10 picks you speak of? the only top 5-10 picks I see on the Leafs roster are Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Kadri, Rielly...and the oldest of those was drafted in 2009. Nice try with the "decades worth" comment though.

So they have 8 years of top picks but were only rebuilding for a couple?

 

[Tryblot]

The Leafs "model" rebuild started when they hired Shannahan.

All the other rebuilds/re-tools before that were complete failures.

The Shannahan era Leafs are what teams should model their rebuilds after. No one is arguing that the previous attempts at a re-tool/rebuild were successful.

I don't know why people are trying to deny how successful Shannahan has been. He hired the right management and they have completely turned the team around. They didn't inherit some goldmine ready to cash in, they built the current Leafs almost entirely from scratch.

They had a bunch of years worth of top picks that were starting to get better. Some of their core guys are guys that were drafted before shanahan took over.

 

[madmike77]

The Leafs have done a nice job, but they also got extremely lucky in picking up an All-Star (and potentially Vezina-winning) goalie for essentially nothing. It was a smart move in hindsight, but goalies are always a crapshoot.

 

[newfy]

Moving past where they were drafted, the Leafs top 10 picks that were already in their system pre 2014 was a 2nd line centre, a scoring winger who plays on the their line and top pairing D man.

Some nice pieces, but again, hardly a huge leg up on other rebuilding teams. Especially close pared to say the Oilers who had multiple #1 drafted guys in the system

Yeah I dont think Edmonton is the standard to hold rebuilding teams to though, theyre horribly inept. And those pieces might not be a huge leg up in your mind but I think they are because of their age. They dont have a 33 year old second line center or 30+ year old first pairing dman. They sucked and got those pieces that are right in the perfect age range to hit their stride right when they got their franchise center that could put everyone in their proper position based on their ability.

I would make the argument that Rielly is the second most important piece on the Leafs right now after Matthews, and he was drafted before Shanahans group got there. Thats why I think its disingenuous to claim the rebuild has only been 2 years, when the second most important piece on the roster was drafted 6 years ago. I could see an argument for Andersen being 2nd most important but goalies are a lot easier to come by than a first pairing dman

 

[DatSnipeMatthews]

Sorry then bud, I guess you'll have to excuse me then because I don't care about your opinion.

You just have to stop with him. I don't think the light bulbs are flashing.

 

[Menzinger]

You can't just draw a line and say the rebuild started with the Shanahan regime. The turn around started with Shanny, but the players and assets Shanny used were earned over an 8 year stretch, not 2 years.


Quoting myself from another Leafs thread where people ignored everything pre-Shanahan

Leaf fans saying the rebuild started in 2015? What about 2008-2015? The leafs earned the right to pick top 5, 5 times in 8 years and top 10, 7 out of 8 years. Granted you traded away 2 of those picks, #2 and #9 for Kessel. Sabres didn't start picking top 10 until 2013, and only 2 top 5 picks, rather than 4 that the leafs ended up using. I'd say the Sabres are 3 years behind the Leafs, in terms of an 8 year rebuild.

2008 Luke Schenn #5 (from NYI, Toronto had the #7 pick) Turned into JVR
2009 Nazem Kadri #7
2010 Seguin #2 traded to Boston
2011 Dougie #9 also traded to Boston
2012 Morgan Rielly #5
2013 Gauthier #21
2014 Willy Nylander #8
2015 Marner #4
2016 Matthews #1

The issue here is a conceptual one.

Imo the standard definition of a rebuild is trading away old core pieces, accepting you may have to be low in the standings for a couple seasons to get high end younger talent.

The Leafs in 2008-2013 (pre Shanahan era) did not follow any of those pathways. They were in full blown “win now” mode. The fact that they were terrible during that period doesn’t mean they were “rebuilding”.

 

[rent free]

So they have 8 years of top picks but were only rebuilding for a couple?

yes. those years of top picks were due to failed attempts at a playoff push

 

[Tryblot]

yes. those years of top picks were due to failed attempts at a playoff push

Those top picks are very important players for your franchise. You can't just say "we've only had a 2 year rebuild so other teams should follow our model"

If you take away your top defender and best shutdown centre, along with one of your top scoring wingers you aren't making the playoffs right now.

 

[LeafFever]

When he's 21 picked 5th over-all and think he's going to be a star in the league they can. Especially after a few years when no young stars were moved and you just had a few high picks. It's not like Kessel was late 20s or something.

Oilers gave up picks for Reinhart. Colorado did it for Varlamov. San Jose did it for Jones after picking 8th overall.

Wasn't the right choice. Didn't work out. But disingenuous to say it wasn't a rebuild because it wasn't successful or they didn't do it how some fans wanted. Most rebuilds aren't successful.

The 3 examples you provided were all teams who wanted to win now and had ample reason to believe that. Burke clearly believed he was building a winner and not rebuilding. He had also signed Komi+Beauchemin at the same time. There was no rebuilding in mind.

 

[rent free]

Those top picks are very important players for your franchise. You can't just say "we've only had a 2 year rebuild so other teams should follow our model"

If you take away your top defender and best shutdown centre, along with one of your top scoring wingers you aren't making the playoffs right now.

Yes I can just say that because it true. Just because we had high picks doesn't mean we were rebuilding.

 

[Kelly]

Just because the Leafs drafted high those years, doesn't mean they were rebuilding.

We made the playoffs in the shortened season, and were trying to add pieces around the Kessel/Bozak/Phaneuf/Reimer core (puke). Everything the past management said and did points to that.

We were just an awful team having awful results. I'd say the actual rebuild begun one year after Shanahan was hired. He spent the first year evaluating and assessing the organization from top to bottom, and then cleared house the following year.

 

[LeafFever]

The Leafs have done a nice job, but they also got extremely lucky in picking up an All-Star (and potentially Vezina-winning) goalie for essentially nothing. It was a smart move in hindsight, but goalies are always a crapshoot.

No luck about it. They scouted every available goalie for months and chose the right one.

 

[Tryblot]

Yes I can just say that because it true. Just because we had high picks doesn't mean we were rebuilding.

Okay so if the Edmonton gm comes out tomorrow and says "we're going into a rebuild, our last one wasn't successful."

They draft dahlin this year and make a couple minor trades and all of the sudden they start making the playoffs every year.

Does that mean they had a more successful and faster rebuild than Toronto because they did it in half a year instead of two?

 

[LeafFever]

Okay but who on the leafs is even remotely close to Doughty?

Reilly is going to be a stud #1, but even at his best he will never reach Doughty's level.

Until the Leafs solve their need for a legit #1D like Doughty they will never be a serious cup contender.

Disagree completely. They can win a cup with Reilly as the #1. Why do you think you can't be a serious contender without a top 5 #1 D? Doesn't that rule out many current contenders?

 

[LeafFever]

Jeff Carter played for Team Canada.

Neither Marner nor Nylander (if Canadian) are even in the conversation for that level of a team.

Oh excuse me. So did Rob Zamuner.(For you kids old enough).
Nylander would have made the Swedish team this year FYI.

 

[rent free]

Okay so if the Edmonton gm comes out tomorrow and says "we're going into a rebuild, our last one wasn't successful."

They draft dahlin this year and make a couple minor trades and all of the sudden they start making the playoffs every year.

Does that mean they had a more successful and faster rebuild than Toronto because they did it in half a year instead of two?

Um yes. Judging rebuilds depends on how long it took you to make the playoffs and what you did in them. Also I never argued that Toronto had a more successful rebuild than any other team. I was just arguing that the rebuild started in 2015 not 2008. Another thing, if our rebuild started in 2008, why did we trade 2 1st round picks for kessel?

 

[Baxterman]

Oh excuse me. So did Rob Zamuner.(For you kids old enough).
Nylander would have made the Swedish team this year FYI.

Zaumner was a ridiculous pick, nobody had an issue with Carter.

Also not sure about team Sweden they do make some odd/bad picks but more importantly Sweden is not Canada.

 

[LeafFever]

I really wish all these people with the arguments of how rich the Leafs are and have an advantage would have said that previously and not predicted utter failure for them at every turn regardless of wealth.

 

[LeafFever]

Zaumner was a ridiculous pick, nobody had an issue with Carter.

Also not sure about team Sweden they do make some odd/bad picks but more importantly Sweden is not Canada.

In 1998 people had no issue. And Draper had no business in 06 either.