Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

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Tryblot

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Oct 4, 2009
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Um yes. Judging rebuilds depends on how long it took you to make the playoffs and what you did in them. Also I never argued that Toronto had a more successful rebuild than any other team. I was just arguing that the rebuild started in 2015 not 2008. Another thing, if our rebuild started in 2008, why did we trade 2 1st round picks for kessel?

Exactly. It's how long it takes you to make the playoffs. Before Toronto made the playoffs last time it was a decade before that. Most of those picks were top 10.

He traded the picks because he was incompetent. Trading a second overall pick and another pick that probably would have been higher if he had just accepted the tank was a horrible move and I don't think and leafs fan can deny that.
 

rent free

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Apr 6, 2015
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Exactly. It's how long it takes you to make the playoffs. Before Toronto made the playoffs last time it was a decade before that. Most of those picks were top 10.

He traded the picks because he was incompetent. Trading a second overall pick and another pick that probably would have been higher if he had just accepted the tank was a horrible move and I don't think and leafs fan can deny that.
Regardless of what you think you're wrong in stating that the rebuild didn't start in 2015
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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I really wish all these people with the arguments of how rich the Leafs are and have an advantage would have said that previously and not predicted utter failure for them at every turn regardless of wealth.

They’ve been rich for quite awhile and were a failure for quite awhile.

Doesn’t mean it’s not an advantage.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,345
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Ottawa, ON
But they were going to be a failure regardles of wealth.

Wealth is a factor but not the most critical one - particularly in a cap world.

In some ways the cap has helped Toronto because they can’t just buy their way deeper into their mistakes like the Rangers used to do.
 

FelixPotvin29

Registered User
Oct 21, 2012
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Step 1: Be mediocre for years and just barely miss out on top end talent
Step 2: People endlessly mock you for being bad
Step 3: Finally decide **** it and blow it all up
Step 4: Actually be able to afford top end management/coaching because you're not a peasant team that only has support when you're winning cups
Step 5: Be happy with your team and make threads about it
Step 6: HF whines endlessly because they hate that Toronto is the center of the Hockey universe with the most rabid fans

best post of the thread
 
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Optimist

Wendel and I
Feb 16, 2015
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dummies.jpg
 

FelixPotvin29

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Oct 21, 2012
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everyone in this thread realizes the Maple Leafs were mocked for decades because they never rebuilt through the draft right?

all the way from management to the fan base it was widely believed that the city couldnt sustain such a thing and in turn it reflected an uneducated marketplace of sheep. ( i think that's what we were called ).

now the team has been built successfully through competent management and the draft and all of a sudden this is seen as a bad thing?

the salt is delucious ladies and gentlemen
 

613Leafer

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May 26, 2008
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Um yes. Judging rebuilds depends on how long it took you to make the playoffs and what you did in them. Also I never argued that Toronto had a more successful rebuild than any other team. I was just arguing that the rebuild started in 2015 not 2008. Another thing, if our rebuild started in 2008, why did we trade 2 1st round picks for kessel?

I think you're both looking at this a little too black/white. Leafs didn't fully commit to rebuilding through the draft until ~2015, but they also benefited from several high picks (e.g. Rielly, Kadri, and Schenn whose value they turned into JVR) from 2008-2015. So the speed with which they were able to improve from 2015-2017 via "rebuilding" isn't something the Leafs likely could have done as quickly had they tried that right off the bat in 2008.

I don't know how to define the ~2008-2014 stretch. It was arguably rebuilding in the sense that they had four top 10 picks and only made the playoffs once, but also arguably not rebuilding because they traded away two 1st rounders and a whole bunch of 2nd rounders, plus dumped good young players like Steen, Stralman, etc.

Regardless, it's very obvious which strategy was more effective. Focusing on the draft, moving out salary, etc, within a few short years was far more effective than ~6 years of JFJ/Burke/Nonis style aggressive retooling.
 

LeafFever

Registered User
Feb 12, 2016
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Flyers rebuilding strategy is better and is more honorable...
You might want to look at the Leafs stats from 2015-16 before you claim they tanked so hard. 15 points better than the last placed team from the previous season (Buffalo) and 21 points better than the last placed team the following year(Avs). And they lost the most 1 goal game in the NHL that year and added an elite coach.
 

nturn06

Registered User
Nov 9, 2017
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So, the Leafs are 6th in the league in terms of points. Definitely a good or even a contender team.

But looking back just two years ago, the Leafs were a dumpster fire and the worst team in hockey. What can the current rebuilding teams (Oilers, Arizona, Detroit etc...) learn from the Toronto experience?

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Leafs made the playoffs only once in the previous 11 seasons (12 years)?
In this span the drafted Marner, Nylander, Rielly, Brown, Kadri, Luke Schenn, and some other pieces, and gave away the 2nd OV pick.

Their success is not due to AM alone, it is because of many pieces on their team.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
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The Leafs have done a nice job, but they also got extremely lucky in picking up an All-Star (and potentially Vezina-winning) goalie for essentially nothing. It was a smart move in hindsight, but goalies are always a crapshoot.

Wrong.

No luck about it. They scouted every available goalie for months and chose the right one.

Correct!

You just have to stop with him. I don't think the light bulbs are flashing.

Flashing? The light bulbs if they ever even existed are dead. Just dead. Completely dead. Dead to the world. No life at all. Dead.

I think you're both looking at this a little too black/white. Leafs didn't fully commit to rebuilding through the draft until ~2015, but they also benefited from several high picks (e.g. Rielly, Kadri, and Schenn whose value they turned into JVR) from 2008-2015. So the speed with which they were able to improve from 2015-2017 via "rebuilding" isn't something the Leafs likely could have done as quickly had they tried that right off the bat in 2008.

I don't know how to define the ~2008-2014 stretch. It was arguably rebuilding in the sense that they had four top 10 picks and only made the playoffs once, but also arguably not rebuilding because they traded away two 1st rounders and a whole bunch of 2nd rounders, plus dumped good young players like Steen, Stralman, etc.

Regardless, it's very obvious which strategy was more effective. Focusing on the draft, moving out salary, etc, within a few short years was far more effective than ~6 years of JFJ/Burke/Nonis style aggressive retooling.

Well put, nice summary, excellent post.
 

HarryLime

Registered User
Jun 27, 2014
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I don't understand the tank comments. I mean look at the Pens lol. Sid, Geno, MaF, picked 2nd for Staal iirc. Hawks got Toews, Kane. Oilers picked 1st 4 times and it could be 5 shortly. Pens got Mario in the 80s. Toronto got 1 #1 overall pick and their next highest pick was at 4. Teams like Buffalo and Arizona have been picking in the same spots pretty well. It just seems kinda hypocritical that fans of these fanbases throw the Matthews thing in our faces all the time when it was the first time in 30 years TO picked 1st.

90s/00s Avs- picked first and high up for years as the QCN
90s pens- Mariooooo Lemeiux the at worst 3rd greatest player ever (Howe is not better)
00s pens- Sid, Geno, MaF, Staal, etc.
10s Hawks-- Toews, Kane, picked high for the same stretch as TO
10s Oilers- Do I really need to say anything here?

04 Lightning got Vinny
Current Isles got Tavares
current Lightning got Stammer and Hedman
Avs got Mack, Landy, had Duchene


so yeah i mean unless you're the jets who have picked pretty low compared most up and coming teams than you should prob hesitate to call anyone out for drafting high for a bit. Even they got Laine at 2, Ehlers and Trouba in the top 10.

You can look at almost any team thats had success over the last 30 years and point to some high draft picks that turned into gold for them. . Do people do this for other teams that picked 1st literally one time? Buffalo has been picking high up for a long time, Arizona too and what have they done? Florida too. They got Ekblad, Barkov and a ton of high picks but they can't do anything. I don't get involved in these threads a lot but when you see everyone attribute the leafs success to tanking and ignore it when it happens to other teams it's lazy criticism. they haven't been picking higher than lots of teams in the league.


TOR


2012- 5th
2013- 21st
2014- 8th
2015- 4th
2016- 1st

i mean that's not even bad when you look at the examples above.

EDM

2010- 1st
2011- 1st
2012- 1st
2013- 7th
2014- 3rd
2015- 1st
2016- 4th

BUF

2013- 8th
2014- 2nd
2015- 2nd
2016- 8th
2017- 8th
2018- top 10 for sure

COL

2009- 2nd
2011- 2nd
2013- 1st
2015- 10th
2017- 4th

FLA

2010- 3rd
2011- 3rd
2013- 2nd
2014- 1st

PIT

2002- 5th
2003- 1st
2004- 2nd
2005- 1st
2006- 2nd

CHI

2004- 3rd
2005- 7th
2006- 3rd
2007- 1st
 
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Lshap

Hardline Moderate
Jun 6, 2011
27,274
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Montreal
The best examples of rebuilding come from actual success stories like LA or Chicago. They drafted and traded smart, managed the cap well, and won Cups as a testament to their moves. Tampa is the current gold-standard in brilliant drafting, which has allowed them to phase out veterans thanks to homegrown stars. Winnipeg and Toronto are good teams this season, but it's way too soon to proclaim either of them to be a shining example of rebuilding. There have been many recent 'good teams' that've gone nowhere.
 

Daximus

Wow, what a terrific audience.
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Oct 11, 2014
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Five Hills
Good drafting is the only real recipe for success.

You either need to get to the top of the draft and get solid pieces Crosby, Malki, Toews, Kane.

OR be really solid at drafting in later rounds Bergeron, Marchand. Keith, Letang.

Goaltending is an often overlooked factor as well. You can have all the talent up front in the world but if your goalie can't be at least average and more likely above average then you are unlikely to ever win cups. Goaltending might be the single most important factor to being a contender. It's also the hardest to draft for. On top of that depth is also needed which comes through more drafting or adept trading.
 

Peiskos

Registered User
Jan 4, 2018
3,665
3,614
So they have 8 years of top picks but were only rebuilding for a couple?

You can attain top picks without actively trying to rebuild, for example you can have an absolutely delusional management who thinks the team is good and can win but in reality is an absolute dumpster fire, that is what the Leafs management was for the years prior to getting Lou and Shanny to run the show. Our previous management for so many years was just that stupid...bringing in older vets, washed out bums with inflated contracts to help lift the Leafs to glory, you look at the Komisareks, Versteegs, Beauchemins, etc etc

Also like a previous poster here already mentioned, the Leafs were mocked for decades because they never rebuilt through the draft, now that they have done that people are looking for ways to slant that too lol, truly the definition of salty.
 
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Tryblot

Registered User
Oct 4, 2009
8,124
2,871
You can attain top picks without actively trying to rebuild, for example you can have an absolutely delusional management who thinks the team is good and can win but in reality is an absolute dumpster fire, that is what the Leafs management was for the years prior to getting Lou and Shanny to run the show. Our previous management for so many years was just that stupid...bringing in older vets, washed out bums with inflated contracts to help lift the Leafs to glory, you look at the Komisareks, Versteegs, Beauchemins, etc etc

Also like a previous poster here already mentioned, the Leafs were mocked for decades because they never rebuilt through the draft, now that they have done that people are looking for ways to slant that too lol, truly the definition of salty.

I think the leafs have done well in the draft and are looking like a good, young team but to say you rebuilt in two years and other teams should follow the leafs model is not true.

A team just starting their rebuild (going into year 1) is not going to have the pieces the leafs already had in place from previous drafts.

It's just not the same thing.
 
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