Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

[TMLeafs17]

The 2012 Kings had Drew Doughty, Jonathon Quick, Anze Kopitar and Jeff Carter as elite talents with great depth supporting them. That is a great team. They were also far from a normal 8th seed as they had a horrible start and changed to a great coach. The team also went on to win the Cup in two seasons later so not just a win and pray team at all.

Also just judging teams on their seed is a horrible way to look at things. Look at the rosters of team that have won the Cup they are full of elite level talent. There isn't a team out there that was a mediocre roster and just managed to get on a run to win.

It is certainly not anyone's game at all that is just BS fed to fans from the media, league and other desperate fans trying to make it like their mediocre team has a chance.

Guess we’ll agree to disagree. I don’t see how LA’s core is any better than what the Leafs have going for them right now except Doughty.

And I didn’t bring up 8th seed, I was responding to a post claiming 8th seed had no chance. Pretty sure I just proved that wrong.

 

[AvatarAang]

is it really that hard to differentiate between rebuilding and just being plain awful?

The Edmonton Oilers are garbage. They are trying to make the playoffs but are just too pathetic to do so.

The Arizona Coyotes are rebuilding. They still suck but the focus isn't to make playoffs, but to develop young players, acquiring draft picks etc.

In both cases the teams will be lottery picks, but one team will consider this season a massive disappointment, the other will be able to look at the progress their younger kids made as another step towards playoffs.

The former case is what the Leafs were this past decade. The latter is what they were once they were on the Shanaplan.

It's mind boggling how people say the Leafs quick rebuild is because they landed a supserstar in Matthews.

I'm sorry, but what's Edmonton and Buffalo's excuse then? This forum makes it clear at every opportunity that Matthews is overrated, that McDavid is in another tier by himself, and some even consider Eichel above him. Why aren't those teams in the playoff race? It's absolutely embarrassing that they are instead in the race for Dahlin.

 

[LeafFever]

The Kings were not that good. They actually had the worst GF going into the 2014 playoffs. The trade deadline and Gaborik saved them. The Leafs are indeed better overall.

 

[Baxterman]

And I didn’t bring up 8th seed, I was responding to a post claiming 8th seed had no chance. Pretty sure I just proved that wrong.

Which post was that? It wasn't the post by me that you quoted.

I never said the 8th seed has no chance. Judging teams based on seeds alone is a dumb practice.

 

[TMLeafs17]

Which post was that? It wasn't the post by me that you quoted.

I never said the 8th seed has no chance. Judging teams based on seeds alone is a dumb practice.

I don't think just because you make the play-offs you have a chance to win the Cup.

And I’d say you’re wrong, we’ve seen many upsets in the past.

 

[Baxterman]

Guess we’ll agree to disagree. I don’t see how LA’s core is any better than what the Leafs have going for them right now except Doughty.

The Kings were not that good. They actually had the worst GF going into the 2014 playoffs. The trade deadline and Gaborik saved them. The Leafs are indeed better overall.

They don't have a defenseman close to Doughty (sorry you can't say say "except Doughty"), they don't have a center as good as Kopitar, they don't have a second player as good as Carter and Andersen is not as good as Quick (certainly not at the Cup winning time).

 

[rent free]

You can't just draw a line and say the rebuild started with the Shanahan regime. The turn around started with Shanny, but the players and assets Shanny used were earned over an 8 year stretch, not 2 years.


Quoting myself from another Leafs thread where people ignored everything pre-Shanahan

Leaf fans saying the rebuild started in 2015? What about 2008-2015? The leafs earned the right to pick top 5, 5 times in 8 years and top 10, 7 out of 8 years. Granted you traded away 2 of those picks, #2 and #9 for Kessel. Sabres didn't start picking top 10 until 2013, and only 2 top 5 picks, rather than 4 that the leafs ended up using. I'd say the Sabres are 3 years behind the Leafs, in terms of an 8 year rebuild.

2008 Luke Schenn #5 (from NYI, Toronto had the #7 pick) Turned into JVR
2009 Nazem Kadri #7
2010 Seguin #2 traded to Boston
2011 Dougie #9 also traded to Boston
2012 Morgan Rielly #5
2013 Gauthier #21
2014 Willy Nylander #8
2015 Marner #4
2016 Matthews #1

2008-2009 was rebuilding (a different one though), 2009-2011 was attempting to quick fix the rebuild, 2012-2015 was trying to make the playoffs, not rebuilding. just because we failed most years doesn't mean we were rebuilding those years.

 

[Baxterman]

Where does it say 8th seed?

 

[TMLeafs17]

They don't have a defenseman close to Doughty (sorry you can't say say "except Doughty"), they don't have a center as good as Kopitar, they don't have a second player as good as Carter and Andersen is not as good as Quick (certainly not at the Cup winning time).

This argument is getting pretty stale. We don’t have depth past a 13 points in 20 games Carter? Okay... And Matthews is on the level Kopitar was at in 2012.

 

[LeafFever]

They don't have a defenseman close to Doughty (sorry you can't say say "except Doughty"), they don't have a center as good as Kopitar, they don't have a second player as good as Carter and Andersen is not as good as Quick (certainly not at the Cup winning time).

Matthews is as good as Kopitar and Andersen is as good as Quick. The Leafs also have better depth upfront and it's not even close. The Kings actually could not score much either of their cup years. Is Carter being very slightly better than Marner or Nylander going to matter much with a guy like Connor Brown in a bottom 6 role? The depth is sick.

 

[TMLeafs17]

Where does it say 8th seed?

Really reaching now.

 

[LeafFever]

I worry about people on here. Will you guys be ok?

 

[Weezeric]

This is a strange thread, as the leafs likely lose in the first round again this year...

 

[b in vancouver]

Do rebuilding teams trade two straight first rounders and a second?

When he's 21 picked 5th over-all and think he's going to be a star in the league they can. Especially after a few years when no young stars were moved and you just had a few high picks. It's not like Kessel was late 20s or something.

Oilers gave up picks for Reinhart. Colorado did it for Varlamov. San Jose did it for Jones after picking 8th overall.

Wasn't the right choice. Didn't work out. But disingenuous to say it wasn't a rebuild because it wasn't successful or they didn't do it how some fans wanted. Most rebuilds aren't successful.

 

[Baxterman]

Really reaching now.

What?

You claimed that you proved that an 8th seed could win, I never once said that and in fact said that seeds don't really matter look at the team but somehow now I am reaching.

You can't post a single time that I said an 8th seed couldn't win so you are now "proving" something that was never said.

I do love the Kings example because people always think it proves something that it doesn't. What it does prove is that it takes elite talent and a great team to win and it isn't a crap shoot/anyone's game at all

 

[Baxterman]

Matthews is as good as Kopitar and Andersen is as good as Quick. The Leafs also have better depth upfront and it's not even close. The Kings actually could not score much either of their cup years. Is Carter being very slightly better than Marner or Nylander going to matter much with a guy like Connor Brown in a bottom 6 role? The depth is sick.

Matthews is not as good as Kopitar as much as you try to homer him into that.

He may turn into that player but he certainly is not at that level. And now way is Andersen as good as Quick. Maybe recency bias has you forgetting how good Quick was but he was in the conversation as best goalie in the world during those runs, Andersen is not close to that level.

And it isn't like the Kings were using plugs for depth either so yes Carter being significantly does matter when the Kings had much better guys than Connor Brown in their bottom 6.

And of course this all ignores that fact that the Kings had Drew Doughty who did play a slight role in their team winning.

 

[LeafFever]

Quick had a lot less starts and worse stats in 2011-12 than Andersen. Matthews had less points than Kopitar in 2012, but it was only a few points above what Matthews got as a rookie.
This idea Carter is on another level than Marner or Nylander is ridiculous.

 

[MattySnipes]

It was a very, very beneficial trade for the Leafs. You cannot make it in this league without good to great goaltending and you guys got a beauty in Andersen.

Very true. Look at Helle this year. He's having a terrific season, as are the Jets. Fred makes the Leafs go. Great signing and only $5m/yr.

 

[Baxterman]

Quick had a lot less starts and worse stats in 2011-12 than Andersen. Matthews had less points than Kopitar in 2012, but it was only a few points above what Matthews got as a rookie.
This idea Carter is on another level than Marner or Nylander is ridiculous.

Jeff Carter played for Team Canada.

Neither Marner nor Nylander (if Canadian) are even in the conversation for that level of a team.

 

[MattySnipes]

I don't think just because you make the play-offs you have a chance to win the Cup.

Where are you from guy? You do know that the ONLY way to get a shot at the Cup is by making the playoffs.

 

[pucky]

The Kings were not that good. They actually had the worst GF going into the 2014 playoffs. The trade deadline and Gaborik saved them. The Leafs are indeed better overall.

LOL. I like your collection of fairy tales.

 

[Baxterman]

Where are you from guy? You do know that the ONLY way to get a shot at the Cup is by making the playoffs.

Sure but it doesn't mean that if you make the playoffs that you can win the Cup.

 

[BFLO]

LOL @ including the traded picks. That proves the point they were not rebuilding!

is it really that hard to differentiate between rebuilding and just being plain awful?

The Edmonton Oilers are garbage. They are trying to make the playoffs but are just too pathetic to do so.

The Arizona Coyotes are rebuilding. They still suck but the focus isn't to make playoffs, but to develop young players, acquiring draft picks etc.

In both cases the teams will be lottery picks, but one team will consider this season a massive disappointment, the other will be able to look at the progress their younger kids made as another step towards playoffs.

The former case is what the Leafs were this past decade. The latter is what they were once they were on the Shanaplan.

It's mind boggling how people say the Leafs quick rebuild is because they landed a supserstar in Matthews.

I'm sorry, but what's Edmonton and Buffalo's excuse then? This forum makes it clear at every opportunity that Matthews is overrated, that McDavid is in another tier by himself, and some even consider Eichel above him. Why aren't those teams in the playoff race? It's absolutely embarrassing that they are instead in the race for Dahlin.

2008-2009 was rebuilding (a different one though), 2009-2011 was attempting to quick fix the rebuild, 2012-2015 was trying to make the playoffs, not rebuilding. just because we failed most years doesn't mean we were rebuilding those years.

Ok fine, you guys want to quibble about the definition of rebuild. You got me, the Leafs weren't "rebuilding" for the entirety of the time post lock out. But the Leafs were in the dumpster for a decade regardless of the intention of management.

What I'm saying is that there is no 2 year quick fix blue print to follow.

The Leafs blue print was:
1. Be a tire fire for a decade(acquiring an embarrassing amount of top5/top10's)
2. Hire the right management (shanny), who then hires the right coach and gm.
3. Tank and get a superstar 1st overall player
4. Use a decades worth of top 5/top10 picks/players and finally turn it around and make the playoffs.

 

[7even]

When he's 21 picked 5th over-all and think he's going to be a star in the league they can. Especially after a few years when no young stars were moved and you just had a few high picks. It's not like Kessel was late 20s or something.
Oilers gave up picks for Reinhart. Colorado did it for Varlamov. San Jose did it for Jones after picking 8th overall.

Wasn't the right choice. Didn't work out. But disingenuous to say it wasn't a rebuild because it wasn't successful or they didn't do it how some fans wanted. Most rebuilds aren't successful.

It was more of a re-tool there than a rebuild. Trading three high picks for an established player is the definition of mortgaging the future for help now. They thought they were that one elite scorer away from being a competitive team, and were comically wrong.

 

[MattySnipes]

Sure but it doesn't mean that if you make the playoffs that you can win the Cup.

No one said that but you have to make the playoffs in order to get a chance in order to win the Cup. You can't say a team 6th in the league has a 0% chance at winning the cup that makes absolutely zero sense. Unlikely to win the Cup?? Definitely. It'll be a challenge to come out of the East, but never count out a Mike Babcock coached team.