Looking Back at the Leafs two years ago and what it means for rebuilding teams

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

So, the Leafs are 6th in the league in terms of points. Definitely a good or even a contender team.

But looking back just two years ago, the Leafs were a dumpster fire and the worst team in hockey. What can the current rebuilding teams (Oilers, Arizona, Detroit etc...) learn from the Toronto experience?

s

That those that say that taking doesn't work are 100% wrong, because all you have to do to prove that tanking does work is look at Toronto, they tanked, they got Matthews and now they are a championship contender, WITH a strong prospect pool to boot, so if they want to add a piece they can do easier than other contenders because they have more assets.

 

[Gary Nylund]

s

That those that say that taking doesn't work are 100% wrong, because all you have to do to prove that tanking does work is look at Toronto, they tanked, they got Matthews and now they are a championship contender, WITH a strong prospect pool to boot, so if they want to add a piece they can do easier than other contenders because they have more assets.

The Oilers are the other side of the coin though. It's not every year that a Matthews quality player is available, far from it.

 

[X66]

Lol, the lengths people go to deny that the rebuild is more than two years.

Those years the Leafs were finishing in the bottom 10 weren't by design, the Leafs were actually looking to win and be competitive in those years. Management wasn't given the mandate by the board to do a rebuild.

It wasn't until February of 2015 until the board finally agreed to pursue an actual rebuild, I.E the scorched earth era.

This is the NHL, every team has some good players on it, just because the Leafs decided to keep some of them doesn't mean that they were rebuilding when they acquired them.

The rebuild was equal parts lucky and smart.

Lucky because they won Matthews and that Arizona took Strome instead of Marner.

Smart because they knew who to keep(Rielly,Gardiner,Kadri and JVR), and they knew who to add(Andersen).

Not every team can ice 7 rookies in a line-up and succeed, but it turned out to be a smart move by the organization.

To succeed you need luck and smarts, I see everyone giving them slack for the luck part but not enough credit for the smart decisions part.

 

[NyQuil]

The Oilers are the other side of the coin though. It's not every year that a Matthews quality player is available, far from it.

We drafted Chris Phillips 1st overall and what is so surprising about that is that it's been 30 years and it still wasn't that bad a pick given how the careers of that crop turned out.

 

[NyQuil]

To succeed you need luck and smarts, I see everyone giving them slack for the luck part but not enough credit for the smart decisions part.

People will give them credit eventually when they succeed.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

The Oilers are the other side of the coin though. It's not every year that a Matthews quality player is available, far from it.

But that has nothing to do with the Oilers tanking, the Oilers would be right where the Leafs are had they not done stupid things like trading Eberle for Strome, and trading Hall Larsson, or a 1st that could have been Barzal or Bosser for Griffin Reinhart.

But they DID do those stupid things, because they are stupid and now what you see with them is the result

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lol, the lengths people go to deny that the rebuild is more than two years.

Those years the Leafs were finishing in the bottom 10 weren't by design, the Leafs were actually looking to win and be competitive in those years. Management wasn't given the mandate by the board to do a rebuild.

It wasn't until February of 2015 until the board finally agreed to pursue an actual rebuild, I.E the scorched earth era.

This is the NHL, every team has some good players on it, just because the Leafs decided to keep some of them doesn't mean that they were rebuilding when they acquired them.

The rebuild was equal parts lucky and smart.

Lucky because they won Matthews and that Arizona took Strome instead of Marner.

Smart because they knew who to keep(Rielly,Gardiner,Kadri and JVR), and they knew who to add(Andersen).

Not every team can ice 7 rookies in a line-up and succeed, but it turned out to be a smart move by the organization.

To succeed you need luck and smarts, I see everyone giving them slack for the luck part but not enough credit for the smart decisions part.

Nice summary. Equal parts lucky and smart is spot on.

People will give them credit eventually when they succeed.

Maybe, maybe not. And the Leafs have come a long way in a short time. No cup yet, not even a playoff series win but it's hard to argue that there's been no "success".

But that has nothing to do with the Oilers tanking, the Oilers would be right where the Leafs are had they not done stupid things like trading Eberle for Strome, and trading Hall Larsson, or a 1st that could have been Barzal or Bosser for Griffin Reinhart.

But they DID do those stupid things, because they are stupid and now what you see with them is the result

They've made mistakes but getting Matthews was lucky too. A combination of both I think is fair.

 

[NyQuil]

Maybe, maybe not. And the Leafs have come a long way in a short time. No cup yet, not even a playoff series win but it's hard to argue that there's been no "success".

Florida actually won the division like two years ago.

Some people are pumping the brakes a bit more than others is all.

 

[Damisoph]

This thread is why I don't go into Leaf threads on the main board. Toxicity.

 

[Menzinger]

I'm sure its been mentioned but the Leafs didnt rebuild for a couple years. They have been rebuilding for a decade and finally got their franchise center. The Leafs seem to have rebuilt pretty well by getting a good management team in there but realistically all theyve done is "be the worst team to get good players". The Shanahan management group already had top 5-7 picks like Rielly and Kadri as solid players to help the top 10 picks theyve made.

Toronto wouldnt be where they are without sucking the last decade. Imagine if that defense didnt have Rielly?

All rebuilding teams have some “starting pieces” though. It’s not as if the Leafs have a disproportionate advantage here

 

[Menzinger]

Rename this thread "look at us, we are the best, bow to Toronto,"

Works for me

 

[HOPE]

means, winning the lottery on a good draft can turn your franchise 180.

Next.

 

[X66]

Florida actually won the division like two years ago.

Some people are pumping the brakes a bit more than others is all.

It's all context though as well.

That Panthers team won the division with 103 points, definitely impressive. This time around, the top 2 teams are expected to have well over that, and the Leafs themselves are on pace to have more than 103 points.

This Leafs team IMHO would have ran train on that division back in 2015/2016, it wasn't very good at all.

 

[Byron Bitz]

People saying Toronto got lucky in the draft lottery forget that we had put ourself in a position to enter several draft lotteries in previous years and didn't win. If you keep putting yourself in a position to get lucky eventually it's gonna happen for you. Edmonton has been luckier than Toronto, they beat toronto in the 2015 and 2012 draft lotteries

 

[NyQuil]

That Panthers team won the division with 103 points, definitely impressive. This time around, the top 2 teams are expected to have well over that, and the Leafs themselves are on pace to have more than 103 points.

We shall see.

 

[GodEmperor]

People don’t realize how much Babcock has helped the Leafs. You put in almost any other coach and they don’t get these results.

It also helps to have goodndrafting outside the 1st round and to surround your young players with veterans.

It's hard to say how much of it is Babcock and how much of it is actual talent.

Babcock also isn't close to perfect:
1.He still plays Polak who is f***ING DONE, unless you have some God tier top 5 and want him to be a shot blocking plug+combined with his generational icing abilities (he'll ice it in situations you didn't even know it needed to be iced) he can have some use on the PK
2.His obsession with other "gud pros" like Komarov and Hyman, Komarov now looks amazing on our 4th line where he has a reduced role AND he isn't killing our offense now that we have Patty-Naz-Mitch together on the 3rd line, meanwhile Hyman has never been held accountable AT ALL (never ONCE been demoted this ENTIRE year) and has played on the 1st line the entire time
3.His "wanting to hold people accountable" aka holding Willie and Mitch accountable while our plugs plug it up
4.His almost seeming hatred of Leivo and Kapanen, playing plugs like Martin and Moore over them, now that Kap has a permanent spot, our 4th line looks damn good and would be even better if we just told Moore to f*** off and played something like Kapanen-Hyman-Komarov as a DISGUSTING 4th line compared to something like Brown-Moore-Martin that we played earlier, Leivo can go up with Willie and Mats as he has more skill than Hyman
5.Going back to 1, I just have to make this point again, we have a rookie who set a FRANCHISE RECORD and did something only SIX OTHER GUYS HAVE EVER DONE IN THE NHL being sent down over Polak, I have no illusions of Justin Holl being Bobby Holl or Justin Orr or anything like that.....but why the f*** would you demote someone who has done something as amazing as him (2 goals first 2 games as a rookie d man)?

For me, it's hard to say how much effect a coach has, looking at Maurice killing it in the Peg despite people hating his extension and thinking of him as a mediocre stop gap or looking at how McLenan did so well his first year in Edmonton, it's difficult for me to really be "wowed" by a coach.....remember AV killing it in NY to start off? How about Torts in CBJ?

I'm sure Babcock does many things well, but he also has quite a few fatal flaws and fatal flaws can kill you and I don't know how much of it isn't just us having a sick roster v how much of it is his "gud coaching."

 

[snowkiddin]

Holy crows does there really need to be almost 20 pages of this garbage?

 

[BAM]

Okay they werent intentionally rebuilding, they were trying to be competitive and just sucked. They acquired a bunch of top ten picks and got solid players. No, Kadri isnt a first line center, BUT when you draft a first line center and he can slide down to a proper role in the lineup after being given time to develophes a good player to have.

The "rebuild" might've started when Shanahan came along but dont fool yourself, the Leafs had nowhere to go but up and had been drafting top 10 for years. Clueless? Kessel was 23 when they traded for him and Burke overestimated the team he got. You can pretend the Leafs got magically better over 2 seasons but in reality they have a bunch of guys picked top 10 that are contributing to their success that were drafted over the last decade. Even JVR was a result of a top 5 pick.

It really is mostly a case of getting lucky for Matthews and also sucking for years, it wasnt like the Leafs have some special recipe to success.

That's funny, why aren't the Oilers or Sabres any good?

 

[Voight]

People crap of them for this yet BUF & EDM tried the same thing and haven't really succeeded. They both also landed players of Matthews' calibre.

EDM had FOUR #1 picks, plus a 3rd overall pick, plus a 4th overall pick plus a 7th overall pick.

 

[Drytoast]

People don’t realize how much Babcock has helped the Leafs. You put in almost any other coach and they don’t get these results.

It also helps to have goodndrafting outside the 1st round and to surround your young players with veterans.

Babcock is great. But we don't get to Babcock without Shanahan taking charge and telling the board of directors to give him the control and money to go out and get Babcock.

 

[Drytoast]

People crap of them for this yet BUF & EDM tried the same thing and haven't really succeeded. They both also landed players of Matthews' calibre.

EDM had FOUR #1 picks, plus a 3rd overall pick, plus a 4th overall pick plus a 7th overall pick.

The difference between the three teams is honestly Shanahan and the TMLE board of directors backing off and allowing him full control without meddling into his business.

 

[Voight]

The difference between the three teams is honestly Shanahan and the TMLE board of directors backing off and allowing him full control without meddling into his business.

People shouldn't fault the Leafs then, they have excellent management for the first time since Quinn/Dryden. One could argue their group of Shanahan/Lams/Hunter/Dubas/Pridham etc is the best in the league or close to it.

 

[Hunter368]

Low probability would be the Jets winning. 0 chance would the Leafs winning.

I know many people like to talk about it being a crap shoot once you get into the play-offs but that is crap it isn't. The Cup is won by teams with elite talent level. The Leafs don't have close to that elite talent level to win the Cup.

I think you might be overstating your opinion a bit when you state the 5th & 6th placed teams in the entire nhl have a low & 0 probability of winning the cup this year.

I’m the first one to say my team the Jets are not top contenders this year.....I would say the same thing for the Leafs. But it’s too much to say we have low & 0 chance of winning.

 

[bukwas]

I'm not sure there's much to learn.
There are so many variables from team to team that everyone has to do it their way.
They certainly deserve credit for a job well done though.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Step 1: tank for years
Step 2: luck into elite talent (Matthews)
Step 3: repeat steps 1+2 until decent roster/prospect pool is achieved
Step 4: pay $$$ for good coach
Step 5: boast endlessly on HFBoards.

They literally tanked for 1 year, the rest of the time they were actually trying to win, that is why they brought brout in Kessel, Phaneuf, Versteeg, Lupul, Gigere and then later Raymond, Clarkson and Bolland

there is a difference between Tanking and trying to win but sucking.

They only truly tanked 1 year and it got them Matthews