Lightning Rod Hyman: the pyrrhic battle continues

[Willchel Marlynder]

I don't think anyone is saying Hyman is the key to the line success. Personally I think hockey is a team sport. In hockey it's important that all the lines play well.
Hyman is a cog in that line that keeps it running smooth. Doesn't drive it; isn't irreplaceable or something out Landis like that.
My opinion is Hyman is the best suited player on our team at the moment to do what he is doing, nothing more nothing less.

Fair. I would like to see other options, Hyman may very well be the best-suited player for the role right now. At the same time, I think what most people are trying to say is how can we know that when 1) Babcock is very stubborn and won't even try other options such as Kapanen or Leivo and 2) We've already seen in a short amount of time that Matthews and Nylander have no problem producing when they play with players with skill.

I think we all agree that the addition of Marleau made us a better team. This is evident by the fact that we had to place our 20 goal rookie on the fourth line. If someone like Kapanen was able to thrive just as well if not better than Hyman in that role and Hyman is pushed to the fourth line doesn't that mean we have once again improved the roster? Well well never find that out because Babcock refuses to try it. Most posters here want us just to at the least try other options. For some reason the Hyman defenders (not necessarily you) seemed to be against the idea of even trying a different option. It's almost like they know Leivo or Kapanen would be a better option, which would mean Babcock was wrong which leave them in a very saddened state. Can't really see why else they wouldn't want to even explore other options.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Fair. I would like to see other options, Hyman may very well be the best-suited player for the role right now. At the same time, I think what most people are trying to say is how can we know that when 1) Babcock is very stubborn and won't even try other options such as Kapanen or Leivo and 2) We've already seen in a short amount of time that Matthews and Nylander have no problem producing when they play with players with skill.

I think we all agree that the addition of Marleau made us a better team. This is evident by the fact that we had to place our 20 goal rookie on the fourth line. If someone like Kapanen was able to thrive just as well if not better than Hyman in that role and Hyman is pushed to the fourth line doesn't that mean we have once again improved the roster? Well well never find that out because Babcock refuses to try it. Most posters here want us just to at the least try other options. For some reason the Hyman defenders (not necessarily you) seemed to be against the idea of even trying a different option. It's almost like they know Leivo or Kapanen would be a better option, which would mean Babcock was wrong which leave them in a very saddened state. Can't really see why else they wouldn't want to even explore other options.

This team has a good thing going. That line has a really good thing going. Some of us just don't see a need to tinker with something that's working really well as is. Calling a guy up from the minors, or bringing a guy out of the pressbox "just to try it" is silly, given that there has been no struggle with the current order. If, at some point, there is a funk, and it needs a shake-up, then I'm sure Babs will get creative. For now, though, it works mighty effectively. Going with what is producing results is not the wrong choice. He has every right to be stubborn.

 

[saltming]

Fair. I would like to see other options, Hyman may very well be the best-suited player for the role right now. At the same time, I think what most people are trying to say is how can we know that when 1) Babcock is very stubborn and won't even try other options such as Kapanen or Leivo and 2) We've already seen in a short amount of time that Matthews and Nylander have no problem producing when they play with players with skill.

I think we all agree that the addition of Marleau made us a better team. This is evident by the fact that we had to place our 20 goal rookie on the fourth line. If someone like Kapanen was able to thrive just as well if not better than Hyman in that role and Hyman is pushed to the fourth line doesn't that mean we have once again improved the roster? Well well never find that out because Babcock refuses to try it. Most posters here want us just to at the least try other options. For some reason the Hyman defenders (not necessarily you) seemed to be against the idea of even trying a different option. It's almost like they know Leivo or Kapanen would be a better option, which would mean Babcock was wrong which leave them in a very saddened state. Can't really see why else they wouldn't want to even explore other options.

To point 1 my thoughts on those guys I've spoken about: too slow too small doesn't play the same game so it would take an adjustment in their game to play the same role so who knows.
Point 2 it's not about how much they produce but how much better can the team be as is vs if we add another sniper to that line?
I like the arguments and I'm not a Hyman alone needs to be on that line person, but I don't see a replacement in house right now is all

 

[zeke]

We all know the top line would be better with Brown there instead of Hyman.

 

[Brownbeard]

Liked Hyman last year, and am still a fan. I'm not sure if he's the best person to be on the first line with the other available options, but we'll see. He's definitely not a bad choice, though, because -- as Babcock stated -- he's like a pitbull who almost always gets the puck and is great in that regard.

I actually got a cheap jersey with his name on it, and am glad I did.

 

[saltming]

We all know the top line would be better with Brown there instead of Hyman.

We do not all know that. You and others think that and none of you have answered my rationale as to why your substitutions won't work.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

This team has a good thing going. That line has a really good thing going. Some of us just don't see a need to tinker with something that's working really well as is. Calling a guy up from the minors, or bringing a guy out of the pressbox "just to try it" is silly, given that there has been no struggle with the current order. If, at some point, there is a funk, and it needs a shake-up, then I'm sure Babs will get creative. For now, though, it works mighty effectively. Going with what is producing results is not the wrong choice. He has every right to be stubborn.

Totally see what you're saying. I commented on this stance a bit early. The "If it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy. It's one that I said I completely understand. But, I think this where I and a few others differ in the line of thinking between you and others. The line, while not broken, is not in an optimized state. Name me one team who went deep in the playoffs with there #1 LW racking up less than 10 even strength goals? I mean that's already bad enough, but whats worst is that it's not like Hyman didn't have the opportunities to improve that number. He was 3rd in the entire NHL for high danger scoring chances, and 11th for expected goals scored. This stat gets thrown around and nobody refutes it with statistics. Instead, all I hear is "he's not meant to score", or "he brings other intangibles". When it comes to Hyman people don't want to talk stats because they will look silly trying to defend Hyman's position on that line using stats. I haven't seen one person who wants Hyman to stay on the top line use one reasonable statistic to defend that position. I'm a finance major so numbers are very important to me. If you can't prove your stance with cold hard numbers it's hard to really sway my opinion.

At the end of the day it comes down to this; Do you think it's reasonable for your first line LW to have one of the worst shooting percentages in the league? Is it ok for him to have less than 30 points while playing with one of the best dynamic duos in the league? If yes then I don't think theirs much else to discuss. We'll just have to both hope Hyman can improve on those numbers.

To point 1 my thoughts on those guys I've spoken about: too slow too small doesn't play the same game so it would take an adjustment in their game to play the same role so who knows.
Point 2 it's not about how much they produce but how much better can the team be as is vs if we add another sniper to that line?
I like the arguments and I'm not a Hyman alone needs to be on that line person, but I don't see a replacement in house right now is all

Like I said before, I don't think Nylander and Matthews's success is depended on Hyman or the style of play he brings. I think Nylander and Matthews are the reason why Hyman is seen as a success on that line. Switch him for JVR and I don't think JVR, Matthews, or Nylander miss a beat. On the other hand, I think all of Hyman, Bozak, and JVR struggle. would adding Druin to that line over Hyman be a bad idea because Druin is too small? Would you rather have Hyman there or Dylan Larkin? I know who I would want.

As for point 2 I would say you might want to do a bit more research on Kapanen (who is my ideal replacement). He's got a great shot, but is much more than just a sniper. He's one of the fastest Leafs in the organization, he's a defensively responsible winger, and I believe he can contribute adequately in that role. The team becomes better because just like our 20 point rookie getting bumped to the fourth line mde us better, we're now in a position to bump our best motor guy down to the fourth line as well.

 

[zeke]

We do not all know that. You and others think that and none of you have answered my rationale as to why your substitutions won't work.

you know it, I know it.

 

[saltming]

Totally see what you're saying. I commented on this stance a bit early. The "If it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy. It's one that I said I completely understand. But, I think this where I and a few others differ in the line of thinking between you and others. The line, while not broken, is not in an optimized state. Name me one team who went deep in the playoffs with there #1 LW racking up less than 10 even strength goals? I mean that's already bad enough, but whats worst is that it's not like Hyman didn't have the opportunities to improve that number. He was 3rd in the entire NHL for high danger scoring chances, and 11th for expected goals scored. This stat gets thrown around and nobody refutes it with statistics. Instead, all I hear is "he's not meant to score", or "he brings other intangibles". When it comes to Hyman people don't want to talk stats because they will look silly trying to defend Hyman's position on that line using stats. I haven't seen one person who wants Hyman to stay on the top line use one reasonable statistic to defend that position. I'm a finance major so numbers are very important to me. If you can't prove your stance with cold hard numbers it's hard to really sway my opinion.

At the end of the day it comes down to this; Do you think it's reasonable for your first line LW to have one of the worst shooting percentages in the league? Is it ok for him to have less than 30 points while playing with one of the best dynamic duos in the league? If yes then I don't think theirs much else to discuss. We'll just have to both hope Hyman can improve on those numbers.



Like I said before, I don't think Nylander and Matthews's success is depended on Hyman or the style of play he brings. I think Nylander and Matthews are the reason why Hyman is seen as a success on that line. Switch him for JVR and I don't think JVR, Matthews, or Nylander miss a beat. On the other hand, I think all of Hyman, Bozak, and JVR struggle. would adding Druin to that line over Hyman be a bad idea because Druin is too small? Would you rather have Hyman there or Dylan Larkin? I know who I would want.

As for point 2 I would say you might want to do a bit more research on Kapanen (who is my ideal replacement). He's got a great shot, but is much more than just a sniper. He's one of the fastest Leafs in the organization, he's a defensively responsible winger, and I believe he can contribute adequately in that role. The team becomes better because just like our 20 point rookie getting bumped to the fourth line mde us better, we're now in a position to bump our best motor guy down to the fourth line as well.

Here is the thing I agree that the line can be better. One way is if Hyman's sh% regress to normal. Another way is if another player more skilled than him that plays his style of game plays for him. The problem with the second though is, imo, we don't currently have that player on our roster. You like Larkin for the job, ironically Hyman was doing the same job for Larkin as he is doing for Matthews, I would prefer Tkachuk or his type of player (by like I mean obsessively thinking of ways to go to Calgary and kidnap brainwash and disguise him to bring him to the leafs)
I am quite familiar with Kapanen and his skill set. I did not watch every Marlies game the last couple years but I watched quite them regularly. Would that line be great with kk on it? Absolutely! But again I know kk can get to those pucks that are dumped in but his play behind the net is not as strong as Hyman's. Again my opinion from watching both of them and I'm no pro scout so take that as you will.
As for that line being optimized? Optimized is subjective here. I see your points about it but I just don't think putting another shooter on that line optimizes it. Not to say that the line wouldn't score more points but that, again imo, doesn't necessarily make it better or more optimized. For example if it changes the line dynamic and make them a rush line (inserting jvr) I would think the line took a step backwards.
As for a team going deep in the playoffs with a first line player only scoring 10 even strength goals? I believe bob Gainey won 5 Stanley cups and barley ever broke 20 in his career.
Btw thanks for engaging in this debate. You are a breath of fresh air on the topic. I don't know if we will agree but you are well spoken and not raging in you posts

 

[saltming]

you know it, I know it.

You are starting to sound like mikeyg.
I believe you think you know it but I certainly have doubts.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Totally see what you're saying. I commented on this stance a bit early. The "If it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy. It's one that I said I completely understand. But, I think this where I and a few others differ in the line of thinking between you and others. The line, while not broken, is not in an optimized state. Name me one team who went deep in the playoffs with there #1 LW racking up less than 10 even strength goals? I mean that's already bad enough, but whats worst is that it's not like Hyman didn't have the opportunities to improve that number. He was 3rd in the entire NHL for high danger scoring chances, and 11th for expected goals scored. This stat gets thrown around and nobody refutes it with statistics. Instead, all I hear is "he's not meant to score", or "he brings other intangibles". When it comes to Hyman people don't want to talk stats because they will look silly trying to defend Hyman's position on that line using stats. I haven't seen one person who wants Hyman to stay on the top line use one reasonable statistic to defend that position. I'm a finance major so numbers are very important to me. If you can't prove your stance with cold hard numbers it's hard to really sway my opinion.

At the end of the day it comes down to this; Do you think it's reasonable for your first line LW to have one of the worst shooting percentages in the league? Is it ok for him to have less than 30 points while playing with one of the best dynamic duos in the league? If yes then I don't think theirs much else to discuss. We'll just have to both hope Hyman can improve on those numbers.



Like I said before, I don't think Nylander and Matthews's success is depended on Hyman or the style of play he brings. I think Nylander and Matthews are the reason why Hyman is seen as a success on that line. Switch him for JVR and I don't think JVR, Matthews, or Nylander miss a beat. On the other hand, I think all of Hyman, Bozak, and JVR struggle. would adding Druin to that line over Hyman be a bad idea because Druin is too small? Would you rather have Hyman there or Dylan Larkin? I know who I would want.

As for point 2 I would say you might want to do a bit more research on Kapanen (who is my ideal replacement). He's got a great shot, but is much more than just a sniper. He's one of the fastest Leafs in the organization, he's a defensively responsible winger, and I believe he can contribute adequately in that role. The team becomes better because just like our 20 point rookie getting bumped to the fourth line mde us better, we're now in a position to bump our best motor guy down to the fourth line as well.

How many teams had a 3C that scored 30? A 3RW that scored 20?

When your scoring is spread out to take advantage of matchups, your line composition will be different than most, given the benefits of great depth. Our Coach can play to his philosophy exactly because of our depth.

 

[Macallan18]

I thought this discussion had been overblown in the past, but watching the game against Winterpeg I have to say I was underwhelmed with Hyman's play. He is truly an offensive void, and whereas I thought his shooting percentage was an aberration in how low it is, now I'm not sure.
I don't think this is worth complaining about because it will resolve itself. It has too.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I thought this discussion had been overblown in the past, but watching the game against Winterpeg I have to say I was underwhelmed with Hyman's play. He is truly an offensive void, and whereas I thought his shooting percentage was an aberration in how low it is, now I'm not sure.
I don't think this is worth complaining about because it will resolve itself. It has too.

His role being to do the heavy lifting, create space, retrieve the puck, and be in front of the net, I don't think you understand how roles work, or how our coach values them.

 

[Beaninfritz]

His role being to do the heavy lifting, create space, retrieve the puck, and be in front of the net, I don't think you understand how roles work, or how our coach values them.

We already have a player that does all of that, and can score goals too. Only edge Hyman has, is having a bit more in the tank, because he's a bit younger. Komarov is better than Hyman, and would convert a hell of a lot more for sure.

 

[Rogie]

Totally see what you're saying. I commented on this stance a bit early. The "If it ain't broke don't fix it" philosophy. It's one that I said I completely understand. But, I think this where I and a few others differ in the line of thinking between you and others. The line, while not broken, is not in an optimized state. Name me one team who went deep in the playoffs with there #1 LW racking up less than 10 even strength goals? I mean that's already bad enough, but whats worst is that it's not like Hyman didn't have the opportunities to improve that number. He was 3rd in the entire NHL for high danger scoring chances, and 11th for expected goals scored. This stat gets thrown around and nobody refutes it with statistics. Instead, all I hear is "he's not meant to score", or "he brings other intangibles". When it comes to Hyman people don't want to talk stats because they will look silly trying to defend Hyman's position on that line using stats. I haven't seen one person who wants Hyman to stay on the top line use one reasonable statistic to defend that position. I'm a finance major so numbers are very important to me. If you can't prove your stance with cold hard numbers it's hard to really sway my opinion.

At the end of the day it comes down to this; Do you think it's reasonable for your first line LW to have one of the worst shooting percentages in the league? Is it ok for him to have less than 30 points while playing with one of the best dynamic duos in the league? If yes then I don't think theirs much else to discuss. We'll just have to both hope Hyman can improve on those numbers.



Like I said before, I don't think Nylander and Matthews's success is depended on Hyman or the style of play he brings. I think Nylander and Matthews are the reason why Hyman is seen as a success on that line. Switch him for JVR and I don't think JVR, Matthews, or Nylander miss a beat. On the other hand, I think all of Hyman, Bozak, and JVR struggle. would adding Druin to that line over Hyman be a bad idea because Druin is too small? Would you rather have Hyman there or Dylan Larkin? I know who I would want.

As for point 2 I would say you might want to do a bit more research on Kapanen (who is my ideal replacement). He's got a great shot, but is much more than just a sniper. He's one of the fastest Leafs in the organization, he's a defensively responsible winger, and I believe he can contribute adequately in that role. The team becomes better because just like our 20 point rookie getting bumped to the fourth line mde us better, we're now in a position to bump our best motor guy down to the fourth line as well.

I think you are focused too much on points POINTS POINTS like most people are and not enough on defense. No one really knows how Matthews/Willie would have fared defensively with someone else on that line last season. They may have had more points BUT we don't know how they would have been defensively!!!

 

[al secord]

you know it, I know it.

You have trouble with the words "think" and "know"

 

[Mess]

We do not all know that. You and others think that and none of you have answered my rationale as to why your substitutions won't work.

Well Nylander and Brown are both RWs , and we have already witnessed Babcock flip them last year as substitutions for each other.

Hyman is a LW so it would be more likely the coach would sub Marleau or perhaps Leivo as other LW options down the road if he sees fit to substitute for Hyman on that line.

 

[CanadasTeam]

you know it, I know it.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

you know it, I know it.

Out of ideas to contribute and you haven’t debunked many of the well thought out reasons why Hyman can be the ideal option on the first line, and it not being a good idea to try and micro optimize it.

 

[saltming]

Well did Hyman have a good game?
I was working an missed the whole thing.

 

[MJ65]

Well do Hyman have a good game?
I was working an missed the whole thing.

The 1st period of this game he was amazing - but a complete non factor after 1st. In fact it was a off game even for Mtthews

The Bozak line was the worst and JVR was simply awful

 

[saltming]

The 1st period of this game he was amazing - but a complete non factor after 1st. In fact it was a off game even for Mtthews

The Bozak line was the worst and JVR was simply awful

Was it about the team getting complacent? I here we were up early. Did we sit back and assume the win?

 

[zeke]

best play hyman has ever made in his life.

good stuff.

 

[MJ65]

Was it about the team getting complacent? I here we were up early. Did we sit back and assume the win?

Exactly - I hope this does not become a habit

We were 5 -1 at one point - you can watch the highlights on post game thread (last page)

 

[ponder]

He had a very good 2nd game, especially in the 1st period. His hustle and board work are truly elite, I do think he's best on the team by a solid margin in those categories. Good speed and strength too.

I agree that he's a drag on the line offensively, but he certainly helps with possession and defensive play. Plus he was a rookie last year - an old rookie, but still his first true season. He may have significant offensive upside, will be interesting to see what strides he can make with the puck this year. Babs is going with 3 balanced lines, and so far it's working great.