Lightning Rod Hyman: the pyrrhic battle continues

[saltming]

I hope he does hit 51pts. I would trade him for a 1st+ to start the next season.

Lol that would be awesome asset management!

 

[RealityBytes]

Both sides.

Pyrrhic is not the right choice of words.

If you think it is, explain it out and don't just use one word phrases.

I'm curious to see what you come up with.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

I'm honestly just curious, how many games do you think Hyman have to go scoreless 5 on 5 *knock on wood* for him to be removed from the line? Mind you Hyman isn't on the line for scoring and even the most elite of players hit scoring walls (didn't Matthews go 13 games no goals last season). Just curious to see what people think.

 

[hotpaws]

I'm honestly just curious, how many games do you think Hyman have to go scoreless 5 on 5 *knock on wood* for him to be removed from the line? Mind you Hyman isn't on the line for scoring and even the most elite of players hit scoring walls (didn't Matthews go 13 games no goals last season). Just curious to see what people think.

Last season he had I believe 1 or 2 5on5 goals the last 40 something regular season games and only 6 in 82 . He's never leaving AM's side .

 

[RLF]

I find it odd how some think he is on the first line forever, no chance he moves down the line-up even if a better option arises(I know some think there already is, no need to go there).

Maybe, the plan already is to move him down as time goes on. I think sometimes we forget because of their talent that Matthews and Nylander were both rookies and although have been spectacular, still have things in their game to work on. Maybe when Matthews improves on faceoffs and his d-zone coverage is where it should be and Nylander continues to improve board play and d-zone coverage and Babcock is sure he won't take some shifts off, a change is made. Hyman is the prototypical guy of how Babcock says to "play right". He has a motor that won't quit, works hard and plays sound D.

I wouldn't be surprised as Matthews and Nylanders game progresses that Hyman is replaced with a more offensive talent. Maybe Babcock is willing to give up a little offence now, to make sure there is that "play right" conscience on the line-shift in, shift out. When it is not needed anymore, he gets "replaced" by a winger with a little more offence, especially if Hyman doesn't find better touch this season, which he should be able to.

 

[koka86yanzi]

hyman on the first line is just something on paper. if the situation calls for more scoring, i'd imagine lines will get shuffled during the game. i dont get why there's a constant hate on for hyman though. Replacing hyman on the first line will just make another line weaker. Imagine the 4th line without brown. it's suddenly a line that looks...well...martin / fehr / hyman....sorry but that's a line i would hesitate to give 4-6 minutes of ice time a game, meaning all other lines play more, players play more tired and perhaps less effective?

 

[Rogie]

I'm honestly just curious, how many games do you think Hyman have to go scoreless 5 on 5 *knock on wood* for him to be removed from the line? Mind you Hyman isn't on the line for scoring and even the most elite of players hit scoring walls (didn't Matthews go 13 games no goals last season). Just curious to see what people think.

I think if the team is winning and the line is scoring and not giving up too much defensively, then, I don't think Hyman has to score at all. That's the way I think Babcock sees it - jmo. If Matthews/Nylander keep racking up the points and the line is solid defensively, again, I don't think it matters if Hyman gets points or not. Again, I think that's the way Babcock sees it.

Course, if we are winning, and winning with reasonably good possession and not just winning on goaltending, then, that means other lines are also contributing and clicking, so, hence, no reason to change those other lines up either.

It's possible, if another line is having big problems, it's possible Coach might think Hyman could help that line out and who knows then ...... maybe Hyman gets moved. If Hyman was put with Bozak/JVR (mind you he'd be replacing Marner) he could certainly add a lot of defense to Bozak/JVR and he wouldn't be on his off-wing like he is with Matthews/Willie. Course, Marner would have to play his offwing then with Matthews/Willie, but, he could likely do that ..?? Marner, though not as physical as Hyman, but with a similar engine AND in another league skill wise, from Hyman makes Bozak/JVR somewhat salvageable as a line, but, I think coach thinks they're close to beyond help defensively and anything short of a Marneresque player wouldn't be enough; as they are already fairly sheltered as it is.

 

[saltming]

Pyrrhic is not the right choice of words.

If you think it is, explain it out and don't just use one word phrases.

I'm curious to see what you come up with.

I thought it was self explanatory but here goes.
This debate takes so much effort on both sides that even if one were to win the effort it would take is so tremdous that it may only be a victory only in name bexause the cost was too high. If you've read through the previous version of this thread you might get what I'm saying better.
A bit of humor in there too.

 

[Mess]

Last season he had I believe 1 or 2 5on5 goals the last 40 something regular season games and only 6 in 82 . He's never leaving AM's side .

There are going to be many reasons that the dynamic duo of Hyman and Matthews will eventually be broken up.

If the line struggles, or the team struggles, or an injury (forcing it), or a better replacement player.

Patience my friend is the only thing missing now. This is only a For Now, but not a Forever thing.

Leafs need a big, young, power forward type with finishing ability. Grundstrom is the closest thing in the organization at present.

 

[saltming]

There are going to be many reasons that the dynamic duo of Hyman and Matthews will eventually be broken up.

If the line struggles, or the team struggles, or an injury (forcing it), or a better replacement player. Patience my friend is the only thing missing now.

Leafs need a big, young, power forward type with finishing ability. Grundstrom is the closest thing in the organization at present.

Agreed about Grundstrom. If he puts on a few more pounds and takes his game behind the net he could be perfect.
I watched the Edmonton Calgary game and Tkachuk was a beast behind the net. Calgary is such a tire fire I feel for the kids there. They have no system and suspect management.

 

[hotpaws]

There are going to be many reasons that the dynamic duo of Hyman and Matthews will eventually be broken up.

If the line struggles, or the team struggles, or an injury (forcing it), or a better replacement player.

Patience my friend is the only thing missing now. This is only a For Now, but not a Forever thing.

Leafs need a big, young, power forward type with finishing ability. Grundstrom is the closest thing in the organization at present.

patience ? oh i've been patient

i've lived through the black hole that was the 80's , our just finished 10 plus years of futility and i've been finally rewarded for my patience with some elite talent

unfortunately our coach has a fetish for bottom line no talent energy players , next thing we know he'll be pressuring LL to trade for Abdelker so he can glue him to Mitch

 

[saltming]

For Babcock, deciding who goes where is bigger than just one guy. “It’s not just ideal for Matthews, it’s what’s ideal for our team,” he said. [/B]“It’s about the Leafs and finding ways to win so we need more than one line. [/B]Just because it works good for him doesn’t mean it works good for us. Brown’s played well with him. Nylander’s had some real good time there as well. I don’t like Marner there as much just because I think Marner can drive a line by himself.” Matthews has played almost exclusively in 5-on-5 with rookies this season, and said having other young players around to lean on has helped them all tackle the league’s learning curve. Babcock just wants Matthews out there with competitive players. “Auston likes to shoot the puck as you can see and he likes people who can get it him,” he said. “If you have one guy at the net who can draw a defenceman, there’s more space for him. [Good players] want players who can the puck. They don’t want three guys on a line who want the puck. They want guys who get them the puck and then get open.”

Least we forget.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Interesting replies. As of right now, it seemed Hyman will be glued to that line so the best thing to hope for is that he has a good season. I just hope Kapanen gets a chance soon, he fits the mold of this team perfectly. Fast, good defensively and a high IQ. Exactly the type of player that can sot anywhere in the lineup.

 

[saltming]

Interesting replies. As of right now, it seemed Hyman will be glued to that line so the best thing to hope for is that he has a good season. I just hope Kapanen gets a chance soon, he fits the mold of this team perfectly. Fast, good defensively and a high IQ. Exactly the type of player that can sot anywhere in the lineup.

Imo kk also needs a few more pounds to play Hyman's role. I'm also not sure how he would do playing that style of game. He seems to be more the marleau shooter type with a good 2 way game.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Imo kk also needs a few more pounds to play Hyman's role. I'm also not sure how he would do playing that style of game. He seems to be more the marleau shooter type with a good 2 way game.

I guess I'm of the belief that Matthews and Nylander don't necessarily need a guy who plays Hyman's game to a tee to be successful. I think they would have the same amount of success if not more playing with guys like Duchene, Mackinnon, Hall, Hoffman, Larkin, etc. Guys who are extremely quick and can create with their skill.

I think we may differ a bit in what Matthews and Nylander can do, which is fine that is the point of a forum

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

There are going to be many reasons that the dynamic duo of Hyman and Matthews will eventually be broken up.

If the line struggles, or the team struggles, or an injury (forcing it), or a better replacement player.

Patience my friend is the only thing missing now. This is only a For Now, but not a Forever thing.

Leafs need a big, young, power forward type with finishing ability. Grundstrom is the closest thing in the organization at present.

Isn't that exactly what Josh Leivo was\is supposed to be? Maybe they could, you know, just try playing him on that wing?

 

[saltming]

I guess I'm of the belief that Matthews and Nylander don't necessarily need a guy who plays Hyman's game to a tee to be successful. I think they would have the same amount of success if not more playing with guys like Duchene, Mackinnon, Hall, Hoffman, Larkin, etc. Guys who are extremely quick and can create with their skill.

I think we may differ a bit in what Matthews and Nylander can do, which is fine that is the point of a forum

I do agree they could do well with those players too I mean how couldn't they. My worry is we go back to having a rush line like the Kessel days and though they would have a way better 2 way game why come down for 1 shot then have to play defense again? I would rather a 40 second shift in the offensive zone wearing out the other team and goalie.
I've stated before that Tkachuk would be my dream player for Hyman's spot.

 

[zeke]

I thought it was self explanatory but here goes.
This debate takes so much effort on both sides that even if one were to win the effort it would take is so tremdous that it may only be a victory only in name bexause the cost was too high. If you've read through the previous version of this thread you might get what I'm saying better.
A bit of humor in there too.

to be honest, the debate doesn't take any effort at all from this side.

 

[zeke]

Leafs need a big, young, power forward type with finishing ability. Grundstrom is the closest thing in the organization at present.

J.Leivo (24, 6'2", 210lbs): 41gms, 10:57toi, 9gls

 

[zeke]

I find it odd how some think he is on the first line forever, no chance he moves down the line-up even if a better option arises(I know some think there already is, no need to go there).

Maybe, the plan already is to move him down as time goes on.

to be honest, I like continually bringing up the Hyman problem because unlike the defenders, I actually don't think babcock will permanently glue him to matthews' wing. I know babcock is smart enough to see the better fit, and will change eventually.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Post the corsi numbers too, Zeke. #freeLeivo

 

[hotpaws]

to be honest, I like continually bringing up the Hyman problem because unlike the defenders, I actually don't think babcock will permanently glue him to matthews' wing. I know babcock is smart enough to see the better fit, and will change eventually.

nothing Babcock has said or how he coached in Det leads me to believe that Hyman or that type of player will ever be taken off AM's line , my only hope is we find/develop an energy player with size and skill to take Hymans spot sometime in the next half decade or so

also it's not for a lack of intelligence , it's just his fundamental belief that this the best way to build a line up

 

[zeke]

nothing Babcock has said or how he coached in Det leads me to believe that Hyman or that type of player will ever be taken off AM's line , my only hope is we find/develop an energy player with size and skill to take Hymans spot sometime in the next half decade or so

also it's not for a lack of intelligence , it's just his fundamental belief that this the best way to build a line up

never forget that babs loves brownie's grit and hustle, and guaranteed him a spot last year (on the pk as well), even after a lackluster training camp.

babs just expected jvr and/or bozak to be gone already, is all. he never thought he'd have to make this choice. but just know that it kills him a little bit to have brownie on the 4th line.

 

[RLF]

I think if the team is winning and the line is scoring and not giving up too much defensively, then, I don't think Hyman has to score at all. That's the way I think Babcock sees it - jmo. If Matthews/Nylander keep racking up the points and the line is solid defensively, again, I don't think it matters if Hyman gets points or not. Again, I think that's the way Babcock sees it.

Course, if we are winning, and winning with reasonably good possession and not just winning on goaltending, then, that means other lines are also contributing and clicking, so, hence, no reason to change those other lines up either.

It's possible, if another line is having big problems, it's possible Coach might think Hyman could help that line out and who knows then ...... maybe Hyman gets moved. If Hyman was put with Bozak/JVR (mind you he'd be replacing Marner) he could certainly add a lot of defense to Bozak/JVR and he wouldn't be on his off-wing like he is with Matthews/Willie. Course, Marner would have to play his offwing then with Matthews/Willie, but, he could likely do that ..?? Marner, though not as physical as Hyman, but with a similar engine AND in another league skill wise, from Hyman makes Bozak/JVR somewhat salvageable as a line, but, I think coach thinks they're close to beyond help defensively and anything short of a Marneresque player wouldn't be enough; as they are already fairly sheltered as it is.

I wouldn't say not score at all...lol, but he doesn't need to anywhere near the pace of the other two because a lot of his game helps create turnovers, chances and goals without getting points. On top of what you have said, Babcock has also went to Marleau on the line after a penalty kill to get his offensive guys on the ice against the other guys weaker lines since their top players are resting. Good coaching if you ask me...and it worked for a goal. Doesn't mean it will work all game as Marleau plays a different style game. I can't remember him saying I am never splitting up Matthews and Hyman, he has just said he likes the make up of the line and results. I am sure if the line falters for an extended length of time, he would make changes.

 

[RLF]

I guess I'm of the belief that Matthews and Nylander don't necessarily need a guy who plays Hyman's game to a tee to be successful. I think they would have the same amount of success if not more playing with guys like Duchene, Mackinnon, Hall, Hoffman, Larkin, etc. Guys who are extremely quick and can create with their skill.

I think we may differ a bit in what Matthews and Nylander can do, which is fine that is the point of a forum

Ok, but what is the cap hit on those guys you mention?