snipes
How cold? I’m ice cold.
- Dec 28, 2015
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Karlsson vs Matthews offensively?
- Thread starter Ben White
- Start date
Shruggs Peterson
Registered User
- Mar 1, 2017
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This isn't the question being asked but how can you justify this statement?
Kesler's entire career has been in a shutdown role, he's never even had a season in his 10 years in the league where he had more offensive zone starts than defensive zone starts.
A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
- 27,400
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Remember that time Matthews stripped EK and score, I think Matthews had a few goals that night...
Matthews has over 60% defensive zone starts this season. He truly has been a defensive beast. Never thought he would get to that level this early if at all.
Karlsson is better offensively relative to defensemen than Matthews is relative to forwards
McDavidCrushedLarkin
Registered User
- Jun 12, 2016
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You know the trolling and overrating has hit an all time high when they are now actually trying to convince people that a top 15~ forward is better than the best defenceman in the world defensively. Must be running out of material.
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
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ReginKarlssonLehner
Let's Win It All
Im gonna act like you completely ignored Karlsson's unfrikingbelieveable playoffs last summer on one foot. Or his entire season last year for that matter, lol.
Sensung
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2017
- 6,101
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Hey remind me again who won that game...
And please post the OT goal where Karlsson takes Matthews to school.
Still, this is a completely useless comparison.
Karlsson is the best defenseman of this generation but has suspect defense. I give credit where credit is due.
jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
- 16,309
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Where is this narrative that Matthews is amazing defensively coming from?
I'd say the gap between the two is bigger on the defensive end than offensive.
Karlsson>Matthews offensively
Karlsson>>Matthews defensively.
jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
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How's the weather in 2014?
"Karlsson suspect defensively" give me a break. Watch hockey in the last 2 years. That's embarrassing.
bert
Registered User
First game of the season, how did EK look in game 7 of the ECF. Oh you probably just turned that off so you could rip on Ottawa's system and attendance while you keep watching highlites of the first game of the season.
bert
Registered User
Hard to take your 'credit' seriously when you have no idea how to evaluate hockey players.
bert
Registered User
Who wins the art ross trophy the player with the most goals or points? The Art Ross is the trophy awarded to the player that scores the most FYI.
Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
So you would prefer 10+70 player to 60+10 player ?
If one player has a hat trick and the other has 4 secondary assists, who would you say had the better game offensively ?
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jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
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What a weird way to look at this. Why would you ever think comparing goal totals between a forward and defenseman is a good idea? You're essentially saying zack smith and karlsson are roughly equal offensively because their goal totals always hover around the same?
Did you not think of this before you wrote? I don't get your logical thinking as you posted this. Can you elaborate how you think comparing goal totals is the best way to measure offensive ability between a forward and defenseman? Especially over,say, total points, including assists.
I eagerly wait your answers.
jbeck5
Registered User
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The guy with 4 points, duh. Would you rather your team scores 3 or 4 goals? That's what it comes down to.
You're essentially saying you'd rather have a guy with 50 goals and zero assists than a guy with 0 goals and a 100 assists because goals. I value team goals more than individual goals, so i'll go with the guy who helps my team get more overall goals, the guy with 100 assists over the guy with 50 goals.
jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
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lol what a weird way of thinking about it.
Do all leaf fans feel that way?
Would you rather be tied 3-3 going to OT after 60 mins with matthews having 3 goals(cuz having more goals matters more)
OR
Would you rather have won 4-3 with matthews having a goal and 3 assists (cuz team goals or points matter more than individual goals)
???
Do all leaf fans feel that way?
Would you rather be tied 3-3 going to OT after 60 mins with matthews having 3 goals(cuz having more goals matters more)
OR
Would you rather have won 4-3 with matthews having a goal and 3 assists (cuz team goals or points matter more than individual goals)
???
Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
Oh right, because passing the puck d to d is harder than muscling your way to the front of net and beating two guys to to score top shelf. Im sure that d to d pass was so damn important the guy who scored would never be able to do it otherwise. And im sure that team would've scored those goals without the guy who actually scored.
You're saying assists > goals. That's terrible.
"What a weird way to look at this".
Dude this whole poll is weird. There is no way you can make a sensible comparison between a C and a D.
You say comparing goals totals to a forward and a defenseman is not a good idea, but somehow it's completely fair to compare point totals between a player who can be on the ice for 25 minutes a game and play full PP's, and a C who only plays 18 minutes a game. The puck goes through EK all the time, so whenever he's on the ice and they score, he's likely to get a point. Same can be said for Matthews. Difference is, EK plays a position that allows him to play more minutes.
So, how about we even the playing field and go with Points per 60 for this season ? (usually i don't like it, but best i can do for this comparison)
Matthews 3.87 (leads the team in TOI for forwards)
Karlsson 3.71 (leads the team in TOI for dmen)
On top of this, Matthews scores more goals, which is always more dependable than the guy who relies on others putting the puck in the net.
There's my thought process for you.
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jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
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You're describing such a specific play with total bias. You brought nothing of substance on that point. That's like me saying "you're telling me it's easier to go end to end and dangle through 4 guys and make an amazing tape to tape saucer pass for a tap in goal than it is to be fighting for position and have the puck go in off your butt". What silly way of arguing. So let's throw out those useless points.
I clearly said point>goals. Reading comprehension fail on your part. I'm pretty sure everyone read my point and understood it, but you.
You can make a sensible comparison, such as total points and how much they affect their teams offense. You still haven't explained the thought process between using goals to compare forward and defenseman in offensive abilities.
If you really cared about making a strong argument, you would come in with the idea you had "goals is the best way to jusdge offensive abilities between F and D" then, because you care about your argument, would look at the evidence to see how strong your case is. You would then see that zack smith and erik karlsson have roughly the same amount of goals over the past few years. You would then think "hmmm, is zack smith as good as erik karlsson offensively? heck no. This argument must be really bad" and you wouldn't post it. But yet you posted it. Which leads me to believe you don't care about how true or strong your argument is, you just post it regardless. Is this accurate?
KevinRedkey
12/18/23 and beyond!
- Jan 22, 2010
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Poll should be closed because of a lopsided result. Not even the huge amount of Leafs homers on this forum could make this close.
Agent Zub
Registered User
- Jan 2, 2015
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I don't know why anyone is surprised that leaf fans are living in their own little delusions.
Uncle Scrooge
Hockey Bettor
Well im going to make this very clear for you. How many assists can be considered "easy points" vs how many goals can be considered easy goals. The ratio is probably shocking to you. You can't score a goal making a d to d pass. But you can get a point. That was the message i was trying to send with my "biased example".
Bolded: oh please. I asked if 4 secondary assists were better than 3 goals and you said yes. Yes they're points, but by your logic i could never argue goals > assists with you as long as the guy who has more assists has more points. So wouldn't that mean, you'd also say 0 goal 50 assist player is better offensively than 49 goal + 0 assist player. Is that hypothetical ridiculous? Of course, but you made it black and white for yourself.
Im using goals scored as one important element to compare two players offensive abilities, because you know, offense is ultimately putting the puck in the net. I thought we were stricly comparing these guys offense, and not staring too much at the position they played? Suddenly the most important factor in offense (scoring goals) is not a factor at all just because one is a defenseman? Like what? That would be like me saying forwards don't have to play D, but Matthews is pretty good at D, so if we compare Matthews to EK defensively, Matthews must be on a whole different level.
Did i ever say the player who scores more goals is automatically the better offensive player? No. I only said "are we going to dismiss the fact Matthews scores 3x more goals". As such your Zack Smith bullshit is not even relevant to anything i've said lol.
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