JVR-Bozak-Marner or JVR-Bozak-Brown ?

[4evaBlue]

I think it's fair to say his line is having issues with defense, I think it's unfair to say the biggest problem is Bozak. He seems to be putting in more effort this year into playing defense.

I've watched all the games, well I missed part of the last one after that 5-3 I decided to watch something else. I just haven't seen Bozak playing in a way that justifies some of the comments about him.

Don't let that get in a way of a good narrative, though. It's easy to rag on a free wallet, who's hasn't played with many defensive minded players on his line (outside of short stints with scrubs, e.g. Joey Crabb), yet he's always been used in a role above his skillset, though no fault of his own. Now that he's finally where should be in the lineup, thanks to our prospects, and Kadri finally maturing as of last season, he's still being crapped on as a PPG #3C in this young season. It's truly astonding.

Defensively, my main issue is with JVR on that line, and when the line gets stuck out there with Jake, anything can happen. This needs to be avoided at all cost, IMO. I'd also like to see an experiment with Bozak and JVR on separate lines. They've played together on the same line for so long, I feel they've they've become one entity in a lot of people's minds.

I would pay attention to sheltering JVR and Gardiner with better puck retrievers. Bozek's not bad, and Mariner is getting better, but they're no Komarov or Hyman.

 

[4evaBlue]

LOL, it looks like the line wishes they woulda had some icetime with a veteran D like Gardiner. They got to spend most of their time with Rosen and Borgman during the Devils game So yeah, you get what you put in, the line's defensive woes seem even more obvious now. Put some of your worse defensive players on a 5 man unit, and you'll get....

 

[Mess]

LOL, it looks like the line wishes they woulda loved some icetime with a veteran D like Gardiner. They got to spend most of their time with Rosen and Borgman during the Devils game So yeah, you get what you put in, the line's defensive woes seem even more obvious now. Put some of your worse defensive players on a 5 man unit, and you'll get....

Reilly is the Leafs worst +/- Dman at -4 +/-.

Marner (-5) & JVR and Bozak (-4) .

Looks like Rielly is getting dragged down by playing with the JVR-Bozak-Marner line.

Zaitsev + 7 & Gariner +3 must be getting TOI with Matthews and Kadri lines..

 

[MJ65]

Reilly is the Leafs worst +/- Dman at -4 +/-.

Marner (-5) & JVR and Bozak (-4) .

Looks like Rielly is getting dragged down by playing with the JVR-Bozak-Marner line.

Zaitsev + 7 & Gariner +3 must be getting TOI with Matthews and Kadri lines..

.

Mess I am not really sure how to fix the defensive side of this line, I mean what can you teach to the veterans like JVR and Bozak. They themselves have to sort out their issues. It does not really matter how many goals you score if you can not defend your own end

 

[Polaris1010]

Looking at these plus minus numbers, I decided to look at the NHL standings.

The Maple Leafs are the second highest scoring team in the league at 22 goals, and a goal differential of +6.

It is not easy to be a minus player when your team scores as much as it does and has a positive goal differential.

Nothing really new here when we consider who the players are.

However, Zaitsev has been good, the team's #1 defenseman. There is a consistency to his game, which everyone hopes rubs off onto Gardiner.

 

[4evaBlue]

Reilly is the Leafs worst +/- Dman at -4 +/-.

Marner (-5) & JVR and Bozak (-4) .

Looks like Rielly is getting dragged down by playing with the JVR-Bozak-Marner line.

Zaitsev + 7 & Gariner +3 must be getting TOI with Matthews and Kadri lines..

I will not derail the thread to the legitimacy of team stats when used to draw conclusions about individual players, especially when said units have spent majority of their recent years together, but I will just point out that trying to infer any sort of defensive capability based off Gardiner's +5 rating on the team will be hillariously inaccurate.

My initial point remains. You have the weakest forward unit defensively, and you chose to complement them with your bottom pairing (in this case a couple of rookies). I'm not sure why people seem lost for answers.

Edit: grammar.

 

[Mess]

.

Mess I am not really sure how to fix the defensive side of this line, I mean what can you teach to the veterans like JVR and Bozak. They themselves have to sort out their issues. It does not really matter how many goals you score if you can not defend your own end

Well lets look on the bright side.

In 2014-15 the JVR (-33) -- Bozak (-34) -- Kessel (-34) ** Kessel's last year in TO the line was a combined -99 +/- and among the worst defensive forwards in the league.

So now with Marner replacing Kessel and Babcock replacing Carlyle things have gotten significantly better.

I know how to fix the problem, and it will be fixed when JVR and Bozak on expiring contracts have new homes next year.

Problem solved !!!

 

[MJ65]

Well lets look on the bright side.

In 2014-15 the JVR (-33) -- Bozak (-34) -- Kessel (-34) ** Kessel's last year in TO the line was a combined -99 +/- and among the worst defensive forwards in the league.

So now with Marner replacing Kessel and Babcock replacing Carlyle things have gotten significantly better.

I know how to fix the problem, and it will be fixed when JVR and Bozak on expiring contracts have new homes next year.

Problem solved !!!

Problem solved - that's what I was expecting, so for the time being you have no choice but to live with it

 

[thewave]

I will not derail the thread to the legitimacy of team stats when used to draw conclusions about individual players, especially when said units have spent majority of their recent years together, but I will just point out that trying to infer any sort of defensive capability based off Gardiner's +5 rating on the team will be hillariously inaccurate.

My initial point remains. You have the weakest forward unit defensively, and you chose to complement them with your bottom pairing (in this case a couple of rookies). I'm not sure why people seem lost for answers.

Edit: grammar.

Bottom pairing? Aren't they usually on with Rielly?? Can someone look that up please.

 

[Polaris1010]

Bottom pairing? Aren't they usually on with Rielly?? Can someone look that up please.

That happen, maybe few times already in the first four games.

Babcock deliberately had the Bozak line on with the 3rd defensive pair. Their first shift in the Chicago game was like that.

At first I thought it was a fluke, but it kept on happening. It was like Babcock throwing them from the frying pan into the fire to see how they will do. Will someone step up?

Well, what they did was run & gun. It was fun. I liked watching it. When the Leafs were a bad team, they were going to lose most night regardless of the style they play.

They still got Kadri and Matthews, they could play the right way, others play for our entertainment value.

LoL.

 

[MR4]

Think I'm in the keep Bozak for the rest of the szn but trade JVR asap camp, would be good to keep a good FO PK C for the depth but no point in letting a high value winger go to FA instead of recuperating assets

 

[4evaBlue]

Think I'm in the keep Bozak for the rest of the szn but trade JVR asap camp, would be good to keep a good FO PK C for the depth but no point in letting a high value winger go to FA instead of recuperating assets

Agreed, assuming the price is right for Bozak. JVR should fetch a decent return (considerably more than Bozak), especially if we can boost the optics of his play this season. This is another reason why JVR should be moved into a more defensively sheltered role.

 

[Peasy]

They were on for both 5 on 5 goals against tonight.

However they scored one of their own.

 

[Polaris1010]

I thought Bozak was pretty good tonight.

That goal Duorian scored off the give away all alone in front of Anderson was a little weird, but all in all, Bozak was pretty good.

The +/- could be better, if you believe in that stuff.
http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20172018/ES020063.HTM

Bottom line tonight, Leafs win!

The goalie was better, and the game breakers came through, the dramatic ending all set up by a clutch goal.

 

[4evaBlue]

They were on for both 5 on 5 goals against tonight.

However they scored one of their own.

Indeed. A careful observer may note the sequence of events that led to said plays.

Goal against #1: Drouin enters the zone with speed and puts the breaks on, drawing both Gardiner (his man) and Mariner to him. Everyone else (Zaitsev, Bozak and the lethargic JVR) has their mark. Mariner then fails to intercept the pass going to his man, Petry at the point, who takes a shot through a maze of bodies. I doubt Freddy saw any of it.

Goal for #1: Bozak wins the draw cleanly, and knives it toward the net, Habs player kicks the puck right to JVR's stick in an awkward attempt to clear the puck and JVR flubs one in the net off Petry. Noone else on the line contributed to the play,

Goal against #3: Riely chases down a dump in behind the net and forces the puck along the boards on Mariner's side, into pressure, instead of reversing the play to JVR's side. The puck squeecks by Mariner, as he's battling with MaxPac, and ends up on the point controlled by Habs D. Bozak attempts to cover for Mariner, who gets hauled down by Max (without a call), causing Rielly to jump out of position. Bozak, with his speed, manages to delay the first attempt, but since noone bothered to take Bozak's man, Drouin, he's free to tip the puck past Andersen with Mariner still on the ice, Rielly out of poisition, and JVR looking at the play from the blue line.

In short, if +/- had any integrity whatsoever, this is how they would have been assigned for tonight's game:
Bozak: +1
JVR: 0 (he probably didn't have a chance to catch Drouin before the tip, but he could have at least made an attempt)
Mariner: -2

 

[MR4]

In short, if +/- had any integrity whatsoever, this is how they would have been assigned for tonight's game:
Bozak: +1
JVR: 0 (he probably didn't have a chance to catch Drouin before the tip, but he could have at least made an attempt)
Mariner: -2

Lmao MaxPac has Marner's arm locked in his own after being in position on the boards but he deserves a minus for it? Just dumb.

 

[Maple Leaf]

It's over
Should jumble the lines
Get Marner going

 

[4evaBlue]

Lmao MaxPac has Marner's arm locked in his own after being in position on the boards but he deserves a minus for it? Just dumb.

He not only lost the "battle" along the boards, but it was his mark lost in that shuffle that lead to the musical chairs on the defensive coverage. I acknowledge that majority of the blame goes to Rielly for making the dumb pass, and the refs for missing the obvious armlock. Still, Mariner needs to find a way to chip that puck past the point, and I believe with a couple of years and some added pounds, he will. If I was going to dock JVR for his non-effort coverage on Drouin, you bet Mariner is getting docked for that half-@$$ed attempt to win the puck against Max. The arm lock occurred after the puck made it the point and Mitch tried to spin back toward the net.

 

[Apotheosis]

I seriously don't understand how Babcock can throw them out there every night and expect anything different. That line is what it is. Marner drives play but also wastes a lot of energy back checking because JVR is lethargic. Bozak isn't as bad, but he chronically loses his marker in the D-zone and the entire line looks like a tire fire in their own zone. It's time to shuffle the lines around a bit. Move Marner to Kadri's line and give Bozak and JVR someone like Komarov who is much better at D and will almost force them to work harder. At least, he will somehow positively impact their play defensively by being better himself. Kadri and Marleau are fast enough to keep up with Marner and have the hand-eye to give and go.

 

[IPS]

I seriously don't understand how Babcock can throw them out there every night and expect anything different. That line is what it is. Marner drives play but also wastes a lot of energy back checking because JVR is lethargic. Bozak isn't as bad, but he chronically loses his marker in the D-zone and the entire line looks like a tire fire in their own zone. It's time to shuffle the lines around a bit. Move Marner to Kadri's line and give Bozak and JVR someone like Komarov who is much better at D and will almost force them to work harder. At least, he will somehow positively impact their play defensively by being better himself. Kadri and Marleau are fast enough to keep up with Marner and have the hand-eye to give and go.

I would love to see Marner play with Marleau and Kadri but it's NEVER going to happen. Babcock is stubborn, and he will never remove Komarov from Kadri's line, he has his combos that he never changes: Hyman-Matthews, JVR-Bozak, and Komarov-Kadri.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Replacing jvr with a speedy two way winger next year like Kappy will make us a better team imo. Bozak isn't really that bad

 

[Lightsol]

Lmao MaxPac has Marner's arm locked in his own after being in position on the boards but he deserves a minus for it? Just dumb.

That was pretty much the only play I actually saw (since I'm barred from watching the Leafs this year), and the first thing out of my mouth when I saw it was "LOOK AT f***ING PACHIORETTY!"

 

[stickty111]

Bozak isnt good enough and looks like another person is making excuses for him by blaming his linemates. Its never Bozak's fault apparently.
Its odd how JVR and Marner look better when paired with Kadri.
The sooner the excuses for Bozak stop, the more objectivity there can be about his play which isnt good enough in the defensive zone. There is a reason Bozak never gets quality defensive linemates as they dont want those players to be dragged down by him, and also, Bozak hasnt earned the opportunity to play with defensively responsible linemates.

 

[saffronleaf]

I think Bozak needs to go and Nylander should play center.

Hyman - Matthews - Marner
Marleau - Nylander - Kapanen
JvR - Kadri - Brown
Martin/Leivo - Moore/other guy - Komarov

 

[saffronleaf]

Think I'm in the keep Bozak for the rest of the szn but trade JVR asap camp, would be good to keep a good FO PK C for the depth but no point in letting a high value winger go to FA instead of recuperating assets

My concern with that is that I'd like to see Nylander center his own line. He could be as good as Backstrom.