JVR-Bozak-Marner or JVR-Bozak-Brown ?

[Gary Nylund]

He looks like he's trying to do too much which isn't surprising, he's pretty much on his own defensively.

Yeah it's a strange position for Marner to be in. On one hand, he's in a sheltered role with two offensively gifted linemates which is a great opportunity to put up points. However, it may be the opposite of ideal as far as learning to be responsible defensively. It really makes me wonder what would happen if Marner was put on a line with Fehr/Moore/Kadri at centre and Brown/Komarov on the wing even for one game, would love to see that. I know it's not likely to happen but if this keeps up, Babcock is going to have to do something sooner or later.

 

[thewave]

Bozak so far this year is the only I see playing defense on that line, what goal against would you lay on Bozak? JVR can't back check to save his life and Marner has just been bad defensively and his passing has been dangerous both for us and the other team.

At least so far this season the problem with the line doesn't seem to be Bozak.

Well its not just JVR, is it Marner as well? I don't think one man can tank a line like that and I don't think you can pin this on Mitch. I am going to rely on trusty history and say Bozak is terrible at getting positive defensive play action from his wings

 

[Gary Nylund]

They don't contradict your 5v5 numbers, they contradict the net negative aspect you stated. They have been on the ice for one more goal for than against when you factor in all goals, not just 5 on 5. That makes them a net positive. These numbers can be found in the boxscores at NHL.com. They list the players on the ice for every goal.

As mentioned above, I used NHL.com's boxscores but it is quite possible. Do you have them as a negative?

Ah, that explains it. Fine then, let's say that according to the numbers, JVR/Bozak/Marner have sucked defensively at even strength. With an extra man on the ice however, they're much better so there is that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

They don't contradict your 5v5 numbers, they contradict the net negative aspect you stated. They have been on the ice for one more goal for than against when you factor in all goals, not just 5 on 5. That makes them a net positive. These numbers can be found in the boxscores at NHL.com. They list the players on the ice for every goal.



As mentioned above, I used NHL.com's boxscores but it is quite possible. Do you have them as a negative?

nhl.com has the same +- numbers as hockey-reference. I know because I just checked, here you go: https://www.nhl.com/mapleleafs/stats/regular-season

 

[IPS]

Well its not just JVR, is it Marner as well? I don't think one man can tank a line like that and I don't think you can pin this on Mitch. I am going to rely on trusty history and say Bozak is terrible at getting positive defensive play action from his wings

Been like that ever since he came into the league.

JVR and Marner have clearly been bad defensively, but the wingers also happen to have the least defensive responsibility on the ice.

 

[The Apologist]

Ah, that explains it. Fine then, let's say that according to the numbers, JVR/Bozak/Marner have sucked defensively at even strength. With an extra man on the ice however, they're much better so there is that.

LOL, I can agree to that. Luckily for us, the NHL counts a power play goal as a goal as well.

 

[Gallagbi]

As mentioned above, I used NHL.com's boxscores but it is quite possible. Do you have them as a negative?

Marner (-2) is the only negative top 9 forward in total GF/GA.

 

[Gary Nylund]

LOL, I can agree to that. Luckily for us, the NHL counts a power play goal as a goal as well.

Yeah when JVR is gone, I will miss him on the PP for sure. Sometimes all he does is park his big body in front of the net so the puck can bounce off him on the way to the net and go in like it did the other night but hey, in the NHL on the PP, being big is a talent.

 

[The Apologist]

Marner (-2) is the only negative top 9 forward in total GF/GA.

Hmm, I just recounted using the boxscores again and still get -3 but the point is the same I guess. Not shocking really. He seems a little lost this year.

 

[Gallagbi]

Been like that ever since he came into the league.

JVR and Marner have clearly been bad defensively, but the wingers also happen to have the least defensive responsibility on the ice.

It's funny, on a lot of the goals against Marner's in the position you'd traditionally see a C.

The drop pass against the Rangers, tip-in vs. Hawks, GTG against NYR.

 

[The Apologist]

It's funny, on a lot of the goals against Marner's in the position you'd traditionally see a C.

The drop pass against the Rangers, tip-in vs. Hawks, GTG against NYR.

So you're saying he's out of position? Seems to be something that has been mentioned a lot recently

 

[Gallagbi]

So you're saying he's out of position? Seems to be something that has been mentioned a lot recently

We don't play a traditional system, so not really out of position. They were all logical spots for him to be in given the situation.

He does seem to be first man back on that line a lot though.

 

[The Apologist]

We don't play a traditional system, so not really out of position. They were all logical spots for him to be in given the situation.

He does seem to be first man back on that line a lot though.

Im not sure I agree with that. Ive seen a few people mention it but he's just as likely to be the one at the line cheating up as he is the one getting back.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Im not sure I agree with that. Ive seen a few people mention it but he's just as likely to be the one at the line cheating up as he is the one getting back.

People seem to see what they want to see, mistakes by players you like are overlooked. Mistakes by your favorite whipping boy are magnified.

Bozak isn't perfect but how many goals are actually on him this year? He seems be getting a lot of blame based entirely on reputation this season.

 

[The Apologist]

People seem to see what they want to see, mistakes by players you like are overlooked. Mistakes by your favorite whipping boy are magnified.

Bozak isn't perfect but how many goals are actually on him this year? He seems be getting a lot of blame based entirely on reputation this season.

The whole line is, some deserved and some not. I honestly dont think Bozak has been a problem this year, but I admit that I have always been a fan of his so I may be biased.

I think the fact that Kadri and Matthews have been lights out magnifies this line's weaknesses too.

 

[Gallagbi]

Im not sure I agree with that. Ive seen a few people mention it but he's just as likely to be the one at the line cheating up as he is the one getting back.

Agree with which?

I find when he's cheating he's fleeing the zone or gliding when he should be stopping, but he's the first forward back more often than I'd expect from the pick carrier on that line.

 

[Gallagbi]

People seem to see what they want to see, mistakes by players you like are overlooked. Mistakes by your favorite whipping boy are magnified.

Funny, in 1 thread I apparently hate Marner and now he's my favorite player.

 

[The Apologist]

Agree with which?

I find when he's cheating he's fleeing the zone or gliding when he should be stopping, but he's the first forward back more often than I'd expect from the pick carrier on that line.

The first person back part. I'll rewatch the tapes (is that even a saying anymore?) but again, more often than not I would say he isn't. I mean, he's not JVR level slacking back, but I would be willing to bet Bozak is more often than not the first one back.

 

[Gary Nylund]

People seem to see what they want to see, mistakes by players you like are overlooked. Mistakes by your favorite whipping boy are magnified.

Bozak isn't perfect but how many goals are actually on him this year? He seems be getting a lot of blame based entirely on reputation this season.

Is he getting any blame for something that's not deserved? People have said his line has sucked defensively, is that unfair? I'm not sure I've seen anyone say it's all his fault, it's definitely been a "team effort".

You're right about his reputation, that's also deserved. We've been watching the guy play for years, I think by now we all know what he is, both the good and the bad.

 

[thewave]

I am sticking with Bozak is culprit A. JVR B and finally Mitch C. When I reflect on his body of work there is no way that I can say his erroneous passes is the chief reason we get hemmed in our zone. Mitch is far to often the first man to get the puck and carrier it out. Bozak drfits and JVR takes up position in front of the net.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Funny, in 1 thread I apparently hate Marner and now he's my favorite player.

See now that can happen when you try to be objective and see all sides of an argument. Let that be a lesson to you.

 

[The Apologist]

Funny, in 1 thread I apparently hate Marner and now he's my favorite player.

I don't think its necessarily directed at you but at everyone in general. We do tend to amplify the mistakes of those who we expect to falter while 'missing' the mistakes of others.

And I get that a lot as well, the name Kadri usually being involved. He is actually one of my favourites to ever wear the blue and white, but because I like Bozak too any criticism of Kadri at all gets me the 'you hate him' label.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Funny, in 1 thread I apparently hate Marner and now he's my favorite player.

Oh, I feel you. Don't know how many players I've simultaneously hated and been a fanboy of over the years.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I am sticking with Bozak is culprit A. JVR B and finally Mitch C. When I reflect on his body of work there is no way that I can say his erroneous passes is the chief reason we get hemmed in our zone. Mitch is far to often the first man to get the puck and carrier it out. Bozak drfits and JVR takes up position in front of the net.

You know I hesitate to delve into this much detail (not saying you or anyone else shouldn't, always interesting to read about what others see) just because it's really hard to watch games on TV and actually notice everything that happens on the ice. Having said that, I think you're probably right about Marner, he's seemed off to me so far this season but mostly that's because of strange things he's done in the offensive zone. I'm also not too worried about him, not yet anyway. He has a rep for being avery smart player, hard not to think he won't figure things out eventually. I do look forward to the day he has different linemates though, I think he needs that to grow as a player.

 

[The Apologist]

Is he getting any blame for something that's not deserved? People have said his line has sucked defensively, is that unfair? I'm not sure I've seen anyone say it's all his fault, it's definitely been a "team effort".

You're right about his reputation, that's also deserved. We've been watching the guy play for years, I think by now we all know what he is, both the good and the bad.

I disagree. In general he does get a lot of hate (usually from the same cast of characters) regardless of the situation involved, sometimes even when he wasnt on the ice at all. And generally I dont think most know what we have in him. His defensive faults are highly overblown while his offensive output is often underrated.