Player Discussion Josh Manson

[WhatTheDuck]

I agree that Manson is not untouchable, but the cheapest and most efficient way of obtaining a physical RH shooting dman who is mobile is to develop one out of your own farm system. Now we have to determine how to best develop him. Rushing our previous dmen (Fowler and Lindholm) has certainly harmed their development and Manson is three or four years older than Lindholm and Fowler in their first year up. Our goal this year is to win the Cup and not to finish first in the regular season. In fact, BM says that the only significance of the regular season is to qualify for the playoffs, no matter what position you qualify for. So we can use regular season to determin whether Manson can help us win the Cup. My inclination is in giving young players a chance to prove themselves. If their play proves that they are not ready, then send them down to minors.

How bloody good were you expecting Fowler and Lindholm to be?

 

[HanSolo]

How bloody good were you expecting Fowler and Lindholm to be?

Lidstrom and Chelios.

 

[mightyquack]

Did I seriously just read that 'rushing' Fowler and Lindholm hurt them?

One is a top pairing dman at 22, and the other one is a top 4 guy (and certainly looks like he could be a top pairing guy) at age 20. If anything, throwing both of them into the NHL early has done wonders to them, especially when it came to Fowler.

 

[getzforfighting*]

There should be a yearly test to be allowed to post here. Lindholm/Fowler comments ridiculous.

 

[Paul4587]

Lindholm definitely wasn't rushed, he was ready and has almost surpassed Fowler as a player IMO. Fowler wasn't rushed but he certainly shouldn't have been relied upon to play first pairing minutes in his second year, I definitely think that hurt his confidence and made him more tentative offensively. He should have been sheltered for longer than he was.

Lidstrom and Chelios.

Orr and Bourque actually. Jeez.

 

[camshaft]

Did I seriously just read that 'rushing' Fowler and Lindholm hurt them?

One is a top pairing dman at 22, and the other one is a top 4 guy (and certainly looks like he could be a top pairing guy) at age 20. If anything, throwing both of them into the NHL early has done wonders to them, especially when it came to Fowler.

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant that rushing Fowler and Lindhom have not hurt themin their development. In fact, rushing them, as accelerated their growth, where both are playing top line minutes when they were 20 and 21 years old.

 

[perrygetzanother]

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant that rushing Fowler and Lindhom have not hurt themin their development. In fact, rushing them, as accelerated their growth, where both are playing top line minutes when they were 20 and 21 years old.

Being thrown into the fire from a very young age is how Keith and Seabrook developed. Of course, they weren't a contender at the time and the coach gave them huge freedom to make mistakes so this isn't a completely comparable situation, but their results were wonderful and hopefully Lindholm and Fowler are comparable when they hit their primes.

 

[Paul4587]

Being thrown into the fire from a very young age is how Keith and Seabrook developed. Of course, they weren't a contender at the time and the coach gave them huge freedom to make mistakes so this isn't a completely comparable situation, but their results were wonderful and hopefully Lindholm and Fowler are comparable when they hit their primes.

Seabrook got thrown in straight out of juniors, Keith spent 2 full years before he made the Blackhawks full time though.

I do think Lindholm and Fowler were ready though. As I said IMO Fowler was in over his head in his sophomore year but I don't think it hurt his development too much.

I think Manson is a bit different, he's still very raw - he's a bit of an adventure at times, has great tools but I think he needs more seasoning to learn the positional side of the game and when to take risks and make certain plays.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

Seabrook got thrown in straight out of juniors, Keith spent 2 full years before he made the Blackhawks full time though.

I do think Lindholm and Fowler were ready though. As I said IMO Fowler was in over his head in his sophomore year but I don't think it hurt his development too much.

I think Manson is a bit different, he's still very raw - he's a bit of an adventure at times, has great tools but I think he needs more seasoning to learn the positional side of the game and when to take risks and make certain plays.

I do think Fowler was rushed relative to his defensive skills. He obviously had NHL-level offensive talent. But once it was clear he was a huge liability, he needed to be sent down.

Yes, he's a very good player now, but we can't know what he would have turned into without a full year of getting beat down, of getting physically overmatched because he was underdeveloped, and taking even more years to slowly eradicate the flaws in his game at the expense of a lot of what made him exceptional offensively. He's only just now starting to assert himself physically, despite the fact that he's a big kid. To me, that's a remnant of the days when he could be ragdolled by anyone.

Obviously the answer is unknowable but in my opinion, he should never have been kept.

 

[perrygetzanother]

how you handle those situations is more on the coaching than on the player.

if there are leftover psych issues from being thrown into the fire that's on cam and it shows something about dealing with adversity. If the coaching and psychology are both correct, he'll break through the issues. Its still a positive either way because that psych block was early in the career instead of later on, say, after a huge injury or something, and after pushing past his early issues it will be much easier to push past any other issues as they pop up.

for that reason i actually really like what buffalo is doing with its youngins.

 

[Paul4587]

I do think Fowler was rushed relative to his defensive skills. He obviously had NHL-level offensive talent. But once it was clear he was a huge liability, he needed to be sent down.

Yes, he's a very good player now, but we can't know what he would have turned into without a full year of getting beat down, of getting physically overmatched because he was underdeveloped, and taking even more years to slowly eradicate the flaws in his game at the expense of a lot of what made him exceptional offensively. He's only just now starting to assert himself physically, despite the fact that he's a big kid. To me, that's a remnant of the days when he could be ragdolled by anyone.

Obviously the answer is unknowable but in my opinion, he should never have been kept.

I agree mostly but I don't think it was a matter of whether he should have been kept but IMO he should have been sheltered a lot more, especially in his second year. Visnovsky getting hurt/regressing and Lydman having a down year put way too much pressure on him and he wasn't ready for it.

And yeah the answer is unknowable. I agree that his tentativeness is a result of being overmatched early on and some of the hits he's taken.

how you handle those situations is more on the coaching than on the player.

if there are leftover psych issues from being thrown into the fire that's on cam and it shows something about dealing with adversity. If the coaching and psychology are both correct, he'll break through the issues. Its still a positive either way because that psych block was early in the career instead of later on, say, after a huge injury or something, and after pushing past his early issues it will be much easier to push past any other issues as they pop up.

for that reason i actually really like what buffalo is doing with its youngins.

I hate that Buffalo is clearly tanking, their vets don't give a **** and they went out and got crappy free agents so that they wouldn't compete but I do like that Nolan isn't a guy who hands youngsters ice time they haven't earned.

 

[perrygetzanother]

if buffalo supports their team through the process, then power to them.

there's really no way to let a business of any sort know how you feel aside from your patronage, and if their fans are cool watching an AHL team get a baptism by fire, then go for it. I still think that the NHL time their kids are getting is going to pay off huge for them down the road.

Quite frankly, the AHL exists as a dev league because most teams cant afford to let their kids develop with NHL competition. Buffalo has that luxury since there's no on-ice product to defend, so the development should theoretically be faster.

actually the only thing I really hate about the tanking is that it messes up some of the meaningless awards. What getzlaf did last year was more impressive than crosby's point total bc getz did it against the west and not playing in a division full of teams tanking for lottery picks

 

[OCSportsfan]

This is a Manson thread correct?

I really like his play and think he can be a good partner for Lindholm long term.

Chops to the scouting staff and coaches for his development.

 

[Hussar]

Was seriously impressed with this kid last night. lots of poise, great head on his shoulders, some fantastic tape to tapers, took a hit to make the play. this kid has top 4 written all over him, maybe even top 2/3.

 

[2faded]

Was seriously impressed with this kid last night. lots of poise, great head on his shoulders, some fantastic tape to tapers, took a hit to make the play. this kid has top 4 written all over him, maybe even top 2/3.

This is what I think as well.

 

[nbducksfan19]

I have been shocked by Manson's play. He is so calm and does things that rookies simply should not be able/comfortable doing. Great passing, poise, and skating. Always has his head up and makes good decisions. Also, has the confidence to get involved in the offensive zone. I had heard good reviews on his development, but I certainly did not expect him to be as effective as he has been.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

I have been shocked by Manson's play. He is so calm and does things that rookies simply should not be able/comfortable doing. Great passing, poise, and skating. Always has his head up and makes good decisions. Also, has the confidence to get involved in the offensive zone. I had heard good reviews on his development, but I certainly did not expect him to be as effective as he has been.

I think shocking is a pretty good word for it. He makes some plays that I thought were waaay above his pay grade. He had a rough night overall but you see those flashes where he stands up in the neutral zone, strips the puck, and creates a chance, all without hesitation. He has a very rare quality of being able to string good plays together, on both sides of the puck.

I'm anxious to see him gain some strength and experience so we can get a real handle on his ceiling.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I love the confidence this kid is playing with and he's really starting to show he has legit skills. But my god he's making risky plays. He hasn't gotten burned yet but one of these times he's going to turn the puck over trying to skate through everybody. But that raw talent is exciting.

 

[HanSolo]

I'm still floored that we got him with a 6th round pick. The way he plays he looks like an early second rounder at worst.

 

[Getzmonster]

I asked this earlier (probably being a broken record), but a few more NHL games under his belt and I'm convinced that Fistric can be sent packing. Let Manson go back down and get good AHL minutes, and should the Ducks need to reach into it's depth again for that 8th defenseman, Manson can be called up for spot duties again.

Doing so also gives Murray more roster flexibility by eliminating another one-way contract.

 

[Duck Off]

I love the confidence this kid is playing with and he's really starting to show he has legit skills. But my god he's making risky plays. He hasn't gotten burned yet but one of these times he's going to turn the puck over trying to skate through everybody. But that raw talent is exciting.

This most recent game he seemed to be trying too hard, and made several mistakes. I mentioned it in the game day thread, I thought it was the poorest game he's had in some time. Maybe he was trying to do too much with all the family there, but I thought he was definitely off.

I'm interested to see what happens when Beauchemin comes back. I pray they move Manson to Fowler's pair, but I wouldn't be stunned if they kept Fowler - Stoner together

 

[Getzmonster]

I love the confidence this kid is playing with and he's really starting to show he has legit skills. But my god he's making risky plays. He hasn't gotten burned yet but one of these times he's going to turn the puck over trying to skate through everybody. But that raw talent is exciting.

That tendency to jump in on the play and STAY in on the play has terrified me at times. But I recall it being said (maybe on one of the game broadcasts?) that Yawney has been asking the defense to be more aggressive and jump in as the fourth attacker more. It's no surprise seeing how often we get burned and give up odd-man rushes the other way. I'm not sure if that message would be for certain guys, particularly Manson, but just making a small point that he could be doing what is asked to some degree.

 

[TheJoeMan]

This most recent game he seemed to be trying too hard, and made several mistakes. I mentioned it in the game day thread, I thought it was the poorest game he's had in some time. Maybe he was trying to do too much with all the family there, but I thought he was definitely off.

I'm interested to see what happens when Beauchemin comes back. I pray they move Manson to Fowler's pair, but I wouldn't be stunned if they kept Fowler - Stoner together

Fowler and Stoner shouldn't stay together. Stoner just isn't fit for the right side and him and Vatanen were a lot stronger than Allen and Vatanen are now. I want to say Yawney will put Manson with Fowler tomorrow and scratch Allen but those two haven't played together yet. Maybe he keeps Manson with Lindholm and pairs Beauch with Cam. We'll see.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I asked this earlier (probably being a broken record), but a few more NHL games under his belt and I'm convinced that Fistric can be sent packing. Let Manson go back down and get good AHL minutes, and should the Ducks need to reach into it's depth again for that 8th defenseman, Manson can be called up for spot duties again.

Doing so also gives Murray more roster flexibility by eliminating another one-way contract.

If we're moving Fistric, I hope the return would be a waiver exempt young Dman who could slide in behind Manson on the depth chart. Looks like Norfolk could use the help, and I'd like to have an alternate option to Allen if multiple injuries hit again.

 

[Paul4587]

I'm still floored that we got him with a 6th round pick. The way he plays he looks like an early second rounder at worst.

I'm more surprised at how quickly he's come along. He always had a lot of raw potential but even in Norfolk late last season it looked like he was a couple of years away from putting it together.

Very early but style wise (no necessarily ability wise) he kind of reminds me of a Seabrook type. I'm curious to see him in some offensive situations to see how good his offensive hockey sense, shot and creativity is. I guess he'll have plenty of opportunity when he goes back to Norfolk to get PP time.