bert
Registered User
Prove it.
Ovies GPG vs the GPG being scored while he was playing.... If anything you need to prove he is not, not vice versa. Plus he is well on his way to being number 2 potentially number 1.
Prove it.
Ovies GPG vs the GPG being scored while he was playing.... If anything you need to prove he is not, not vice versa. Plus he is well on his way to being number 2 potentially number 1.
Completely disagree.
Lemieux scoring 85 goals and 199 points with bob Errey and Rob Brown as his wingers, 2 guys who struggled to even stay in the NHL without Lemieux, was nothing short of incredible.
Lemieux's 69 goals in 60 games and 160 points in a season where he missed over a quarter of the season battling cancer may even top that.
Lemieux gets the Bobby Orr treatment because, like Orr, his peak was so far and away ahead of other players
That's not "A little better". Those are 2 of the greatest seasons by a player all time.
You can try to knock "era" all you want, but the fact of the matter is, Lemieux could do it even in the dead puck era(Which was way worse for hobbling skilled players than anything from 2005 forward. He came back in 2001 at age 35 and scored 35 goals and 76 points in 43 games.
He also scored at a disgusting pace in playoff time when teams gameplay and adjust to stop specific players. Better than anything Ovechkin has done in the playoffs.
I just noticed that statement as you pointed it out. how did Ovechkin lap the field?
He beat Kovalchuk 65 goals to 52 goals. 25% more goal scoring.
To put it in context, Bobby Hull won the scoring title with 50 goals in a 70 game season in 61/62 a very low scoring era, and he beat the #2 guy (Gordie Howe)who scored 33 goals. 51% better
Also, Gretzky's 92 goals was better than Bossy's 64 goals by a margin of 43.75%
Gretzky then went a notch higher with his 87 goal season beating Goulet's 56 goal season by 55%
You do have me with Bobby Hull but I was more talking about all time great seasons. He led the league that year sure but it wasnt reallyth at notable of a season when we're talking about the all time best. His competition was a 35 year old. Yeah thts moving the goal posts a bit for sure but thats more what I was talking about. Ovechkins 65 goal season is absolutely in contention for best goal scoring season ever.
A lot of context your ignoring there. Like games played, and the fact that a majority of those guys played in a significantly higher scoring era. He’s 6th all time in GPG(above Gretzky, Howe, and both Hulls), leading the league in goals more than any of them. Ovechkin still leads all players in leading the league in goals when adjusted too.Using League GPG is a useless endeavor. Performance vs. your direct peers is the only metric to use.
His GPG vs. the other Top Ten GPGs is not close to being as dominant as many other players' best goalscoring seasons. That has been shown by Wayne, Hull (both), Richard, Howe, Mario.
He has an argument for these players. Especially if he breaks the goal record. I wouldn’t say “clearly” better but those 4 aren’t “clearly” better than Ovechkin either, only that there is an argument.No, he isnt... if push comes to shove.
That said,...
Yes, he is, ... if only marginally and arguably so.
That means there are several candidates for 8th, 9th, 10th all time, and he is one of them.
Is he clearly better than FIVE (5) of:
Jagr, Esposito, Hasek, Roy, Shore, Harvey, Richard, Beliveau, Crosby or Hull?
No.
In no particular order:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Ovi
Lidstrom
Bourque
Beliveau
Richard
Crosby
From the age of 26 on was routinely below ppg and outside the top 10 in scoring and has only hit 90 points once since the age of 24. Only been past the second round once and is horrid in international playI really wanted to argue that he isn't. Then I realized how weak those arguments would be when trying to think of them.
There's nothing to say against the guy. He's one of the best to ever put on skates.
Easily top 10
I don't think the majority of people outside of HF boards will care about that if he ends up with 900+ goals. You already have people saying he's in the conversation for top 5 all time. (not saying I agree)65 points in 78 games at 26 years old. 71 points in 79 gp at 30 and 69 points in 82 games at 31 is absolutely no where near a top 10 player of all time. Which is why he is clearly behind crosby and mcdavid
I see Ovechkin as the Kobe Bryant of hockey
He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't come close to a level that warrants consideration among the top 10 all-time
From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons
Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that (approx.) age range:
From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102
From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129
From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220
From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149
From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139
From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135
It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-
I see Ovechkin as the Kobe Bryant of hockey
He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't come close to a level that warrants consideration among the top 10 all-time
From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons
Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that (approx.) age range:
From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102
From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129
From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220
From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149
From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139
From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135
It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-