Is Alex Ovechkin a top 10 player of all time?

[Randyne]

How many times in 13 out of the past 18 seasons has he even been a top 10 player when only considering his peers each season, let alone all-time?

10 times in top 10, 2 more than Sid.

2005-06	AR-1,AS-1,Calder-1,Hart-6
2006-07	AS-1,AS-9,Hart-22
2007-08	AS-1,Byng-9,Hart-1,Pearson-1,Richard-1,Ross-1,Selke-30
2008-09	AS-1,AS-10,Hart-1,Pearson-1,Richard-1,Selke-50
2009-10	AS-1,AS-9,Hart-2,Pearson-1,Selke-28
2010-11	AS-2,Hart-14
2011-12	AS-10
2012-13	AS-2,AS-1,Hart-1,Richard-1
2013-14	AS-2,Hart-23,Richard-1
2014-15	AS-1,Hart-2,Richard-1
2015-16	AS-2,AS-7,Hart-6,Richard-1
2016-17	AS-3,Hart-12
2017-18	100great-1,AS-3,Hart-9,Richard-1,Smythe-1
2018-19	AS-1,Hart-7,Richard-1
2019-20	AS-3,AS-6,Hart-13,Richard-1
2020-21	AS-9
2021-22	AS-4,Byng-31,Hart-10
2022-23	AS-7

he’ll have not been top 5-10 in an overwhelmingly majority of them.

False.

 

[Video Nasty]

10 times in top 10

2005-06	AR-1,AS-1,Calder-1,Hart-6
2006-07	AS-1,AS-9,Hart-22
2007-08	AS-1,Byng-9,Hart-1,Pearson-1,Richard-1,Ross-1,Selke-30
2008-09	AS-1,AS-10,Hart-1,Pearson-1,Richard-1,Selke-50
2009-10	AS-1,AS-9,Hart-2,Pearson-1,Selke-28
2010-11	AS-2,Hart-14
2011-12	AS-10
2012-13	AS-2,AS-1,Hart-1,Richard-1
2013-14	AS-2,Hart-23,Richard-1
2014-15	AS-1,Hart-2,Richard-1
2015-16	AS-2,AS-7,Hart-6,Richard-1
2016-17	AS-3,Hart-12
2017-18	100great-1,AS-3,Hart-9,Richard-1,Smythe-1
2018-19	AS-1,Hart-7,Richard-1
2019-20	AS-3,AS-6,Hart-13,Richard-1
2020-21	AS-9
2021-22	AS-4,Byng-31,Hart-10
2022-23	AS-7

False.

A few seasons of courtesy low ranking Hart homer vote totals don’t make someone a top 10 player in that season.

You may as well highlight his 13th place in 2019-2020 with 6 points or 12th place in 2016-2017 with 7 if you’re swayed by his 10 points in 2021-2022.

I can’t say I get it up much for votes that are not finalist bids. Top 5 vote totals are the extent of what should be used when discussing a player one does or doesn’t believe should be in the top 10 of all-time.

 

[wetcoast]

This is how it’s going to go when it comes to the consensus on Ovechkin.

He’s already considered top 10 by many, like it or not. If/when he breaks Gretzky’s goals record and ends up inside the top 10 in points by the end of his career, paired with all the hardware he has won, his case is ironclad. These are such easy things to point to for people and the crowd who wants to go beyond that is small and just not relevant enough.

But after his first 5 seasons, of which he was the top player 3 times and perhaps top 5 in his rookie season, how many times has he been the best player in the league?

Top 5?

How many times in 13 out of the past 18 seasons has he even been a top 10 player when only considering his peers each season, let alone all-time?

That’s when it feels weird whenever anyone talks about him as top 5-10 ever over the last few years and from here on out. Assuming he finishes out the contract and plays 21 seasons, he’ll have not been top 5-10 in an overwhelmingly majority of them.

I think that you are onto something here and 2 camps will emerge and perhaps they already have.

One camp will go goals, goals, goals maybe bring up peak and then not much else.

The other camp will talk about overall impact and being a great (elite) player for how long?

I think there are arguments for Ovi in the top 10 and also as low as 25ish depending on what people value for me he lies somewhere in the middle.

Clearly the second best overall player since the lockout (will probably be passed by McDavid) and also the best goal scorer of all time, or at least in the mix for those that have someone else above him.

It's hard to compare him to Dmen but does anyone not have him as a top 10 forward of all time?

 

[Randyne]

A few seasons of courtesy low ranking Hart homer vote totals don’t make someone a top 10 player in that season.

It's Sid a hypemachine. Not Ovechkin.
Unlike Sid Ovechkin is truly carriyng his team. w/o Sid PIT team plays better.

You may as well highlight his 13th place in 2019-2020 with 6 points or 12th place in 2016-2017 with 7 if you’re swayed by his 10 points in 2021-2022.

I don't have a goldfish memory and I remember that season well.
He was the best on Earth on the first half of that season.

 

[wetcoast]

A few seasons of courtesy low ranking Hart homer vote totals don’t make someone a top 10 player in that season.

You may as well highlight his 13th place in 2019-2020 with 6 points or 12th place in 2016-2017 with 7 if you’re swayed by his 10 points in 2021-2022.

I can’t say I get it up much for votes that are not finalist bids. Top 5 vote totals are the extent of what should be used when discussing a player one does or doesn’t believe should be in the top 10 of all-time.

Also Hart voting isn't exactly voting for the "best player" either.

The 12/13 Hart is also a bit of a gift given the unbalanced schedule and Crosby missing 12 of 48 games, no one that year seriously though Oveckhin was the better player did they?


In 12/13 like most of the time after his peak and then for another year after in 10-11 Ovi has really been riding the PP wave and wasn't all that elite at ES.

12-13 he was tied for 29th in ESP but I guess a lot of voters got caught up in the PP numbers and him beating up the weak SE division and then being kind of meh against the Atlantic and Northeast divisions.

 

[mjd1001]

I don't think Ovi passes Gretzky on the all time list. But considering the 'era' he played in, he might be the best pure goal scorer of all time in the NHL. Gretzky, Hull, Lemieux, Bossy, I can't say that any of them are BETTER goal scorers in terms of Talent than Ovechkin. And seeing how scoring goals might be the single hardest thing to do in hockey (along with being the most valuable), and he might be the best at that, I think I would consider him a top 10 player all time.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

This is how it’s going to go when it comes to the consensus on Ovechkin.

He’s already considered top 10 by many, like it or not. If/when he breaks Gretzky’s goals record and ends up inside the top 10 in points by the end of his career, paired with all the hardware he has won, his case is ironclad. These are such easy things to point to for people and the crowd who wants to go beyond that is small and just not relevant enough.

But after his first 5 seasons, of which he was the top player 3 times and perhaps top 5 in his rookie season, how many times has he been the best player in the league?

Top 5?

How many times in 13 out of the past 18 seasons has he even been a top 10 player when only considering his peers each season, let alone all-time?

That’s when it feels weird whenever anyone talks about him as top 5-10 ever over the last few years and from here on out. Assuming he finishes out the contract and plays 21 seasons, he’ll have not been top 5-10 in an overwhelmingly majority of them.

2005-06 - Calder trophy, 50+ goals, 100+ points
2007-08 - Swept the awards, broke the all time record for most goals by a LW in a single season. 65 goals remains the highest in a single season since the 2005 lockout.
2008-09 - Hart/Lindsay/Rocket repeat, unbelievable playoff run.
2009-10 - Lindsay, and narrowly missed the 3 remaining awards due to suspensions.
2012-13 - Hart + Rocket, Ovechkin’s come back season.
2013 to 2016 - 4 straight Rockets, 3 straight 50 goal seasons. Only player to score 50+ between 2012 (Malkin) and 2019 (Draisaitl).
2017-18 -

2019 to 2022 - Scores 50 goals 2 more times, winning the Rocket twice and tying the record for most 50 goal seasons of all time.
2023 - Sets the record for most 40 goal seasons of all time, becomes 2nd place all time in goals.

To me, looks like a lot of his accomplishments came outside his first 5 seasons. Simply put, you can make a HOF resume from both his 20s and his 30s.

 

[Video Nasty]

2005-06 - Calder trophy, 50+ goals, 100+ points
2007-08 - Swept the awards, broke the all time record for most goals by a LW in a single season. 65 goals remains the highest in a single season since the 2005 lockout.
2008-09 - Hart/Lindsay/Rocket repeat, unbelievable playoff run.
2009-10 - Lindsay, and narrowly missed the 3 remaining awards due to suspensions.
2012-13 - Hart + Rocket, Ovechkin’s come back season.
2013 to 2016 - 4 straight Rockets, 3 straight 50 goal seasons. Only player to score 50+ between 2012 (Malkin) and 2019 (Draisaitl).
2017-18 -
View attachment 740942
2019 to 2022 - Scores 50 goals 2 more times, winning the Rocket twice and tying the record for most 50 goal seasons of all time.
2023 - Sets the record for most 40 goal seasons of all time, becomes 2nd place all time in goals.

To me, looks like a lot of his accomplishments came outside his first 5 seasons. Simply put, you can make a HOF resume from both his 20s and his 30s.

Yes, longevity based totals and records tend to come in the latter half of a career.

Him setting records for most 40 goal seasons and being second in all-time goals doesn’t make him a top 10 player for the 2022-2023 season.

I’d probably have him no lower than 12th all-time myself and I understand the power that comes when he is passing legend after legend on the all-time goal list. Like I said before, if he is the all-time leader in goals and is sitting inside the top 10 for points upon retirement, with the hardware he has collected, it is fruitless to convince the majority of his placement.

Not when that majority already began to deem him the greatest goal scorer ever around the time he scored his 600th goal. One can’t argue against that type of mind that was made up long ago.

And seeing how I’d place him top 10 myself by then, what’s the argument really? It was about how it’s interesting that he’ll be or is a top 10 player ever, while only having been one for about a 1/3 of his career, on a season to season basis, not just cumulatively.

 

[Soundwave]

It's hard to say because what top 10 are you talking about? Career accomplishments or actual hockey ability.

No offence to a lot of the guys who play in the 50s, 60s, 70s, but they're not better players than Ovechkin.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Yes, longevity based totals and records tend to come in the latter half of a career.

Him setting records for most 40 goal seasons and being second in all-time goals doesn’t make him a top 10 player for the 2022-2023 season.

OK, so when was the last time that Ovechkin was a top 10 player in the league in your opinion? 2022? 2020? 2019?

 

[Maplebeasts]

I’d say no but he’s damned close. I’d take

Gretz, Bobby, Mario, Howe, Crosby, McDavid, Hull, Lidstrom, Harvey and Bourque over him.

 

[Video Nasty]

OK, so when was the last time that Ovechkin was a top 10 player in the league in your opinion? 2022? 2020? 2019?

I don’t think he’s been a top 10 player (forward) since 2014-2015. I agree that he was electric for the first half of 2021-2022. So maybe it’s gotcha moment on me if we’re talking about a single half season stretch during the last 10 years.

A top goal scorer since then? Of course.

Overall, no, and I’m not being sneaky by including defensemen and goalies.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I’d say no but he’s damned close. I’d take

Gretz, Bobby, Mario, Howe, Crosby, McDavid, Hull, Lidstrom, Harvey and Bourque over him.

The Bobby Hull comparison is interesting. Ovechkin has compared to his generation similarly to how Bobby Hull compared to his, except Ovie's generation has a talent pool that is likely 3 times larger.

Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Maplebeasts]

The Bobby Hull comparison is interesting. Ovechkin has compared to his generation similarly to how Bobby Hull compared to his, except Ovie's generation has a talent pool that is likely 3 times larger.

Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and...

forums.hfboards.com

While true Bobby Hull also played at a time when the NHL season was 70 games instead of 82. His stats in perspective are absolutely insane and he was arguably the greatest player in the WHA’s history after his NHL career ended for another 7 years.

 

[Randyne]

While true Bobby Hull also played at a time when the NHL season was 70 games instead of 82

How this makes him more favorable? Less games - less work, higher pace, more time to recover.
Adjusted he is #12 all-time. Ovi is almost #1.
Also, Is this true?

I just listened to a podcast where this guy said he had read a book of Bobby Hull and Hull was reminiscing his playing days and how back then goalies didn't have much of a face mask -- if any -- and so he had a habit of aiming a couple shots at goalies head in the beginning of games so that they became timid and then when later on in the game Hull again came ready to shoot the goalie was like hell no not this again and then Hull just shot in the bottom corner and "it went on every time"

Ovechkin milestone thread - 800 and Beyond!

But isn't it weird that a league that is 100 years old has 4 of the top 5 guys from the same era, doesn't that make it seem like you are too influenced by the high scoring eras of the 80s and early 90s? With that said I don't even think its that bad of a list, I'm just nitpicking. The bigger...

forums.hfboards.com

If so... It's not even comparable.

 

[Maplebeasts]

How this makes him more favorable? Less games - less work, higher pace, more time to recover.
Adjusted he is #12 all-time. Ovi is almost #1.
Also, Is this true?

Ovechkin milestone thread - 800 and Beyond!

But isn't it weird that a league that is 100 years old has 4 of the top 5 guys from the same era, doesn't that make it seem like you are too influenced by the high scoring eras of the 80s and early 90s? With that said I don't even think its that bad of a list, I'm just nitpicking. The bigger...

forums.hfboards.com

If so... It's not even comparable.

All I am saying is that he was a 600 goal scorer at a time when the NHL season was 17% shorter. His NHL career ended when he was 33 and then he proceeded to destroy the WHA for 7 more years. If he had been playing 82 regular season games a year and had stayed in the NHL until he retired at 40 you are looking at a probable 800 goal scorer.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't have him top 10, but I understand why someone would.

You could argue he's fourth top forward since Lemieux’s prime, which will hurt his all time ranking.

McDavid isn't ahead of him yet but is getting close. We're at a point where it will be unanimous to have McDavid over Ovechkin. And very easy to argue Jagr and Crosby ahead.

I have him at 12, but expect he'll be at 13 when he retires.

 

[Randyne]

All I am saying is that he was a 600 goal scorer at a time when the NHL season was 17% shorter. His NHL career ended when he was 33 and then he proceeded to destroy the WHA for 7 more years. If he had been playing 82 regular season games a year and had stayed in the NHL until he retired at 40 you are looking at a probable 800 goal scorer.

Adjusted means everyone adjusted to the same amount of games in one season.

What about his book is it true?

 

[Garl]

In Nhl he is maybe top 15 . His international resume is lacking though

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Everyone is going to have their own opinion but some of the responses are so ridiculous. "OV hasn't been an elite player since 2010, his career is lacking if we take away a few seasons, etc". Lol no shit, removing a players 4 best seasons makes their career look worse who would have guessed. Take away his first 5 years and OV still has 7 rockets, a hart, hart runner up, 2x lindsay finalist, Smythe, 550 goals, 7x AST, 4x top 10 pts, 10x top 10 goals, 6x top 10 hart. That's a better career than 95% of HoFers. But just for fun let's take away Crosby's 4 best seasons (06/07, 12/13, 13/14, 16/17) and see how his career looks? He's left with 1 rocket, 1 smythe, 2x hart finalist and 4x AST. In other words, not too great. Not hating on Crosby, because we could replace him with Gretzky, Lemieux, McDavid, Jagr, anyone and the result would be the same. It's just stupid to rank a player after removing their 5 best seasons.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Also, check out Mr one dimensional.

 

[OKR]

If you have Crosby in your top 10 but no Ovechkin, or vice versa you need to get a new sport to watch and fast.

 

[Dingo]

im not too good with linesr rankings. not keen.

there are a group of players that i have watched (in my lifetime) where, over a period of time long enough to leave no doubt, i have gone, "oh ya, that guy is special. As good as it gets."

Ovie is one of those. 2008-2010 was topshelf A+. And then a whole bunch of A or A-.... pretty much the rest of his career.

But its the A+ that makes someone make my Hall of Excellence.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Of course Ovechkin looks worse if you ignore his best three seasons. Any player would.

Here's how Ovechkin ranks in Hart trophy votes (normalized, 1947-2023):

Wayne Gretzky	4.99
Gordie Howe	3.40
Mario Lemieux	2.43
Bobby Orr	1.98
Sidney Crosby	1.92
Bobby Hull	1.63
Jaromir Jagr	1.61
Jean Beliveau	1.61
Connor McDavid	1.59
Alexander Ovechkin	1.59
Phil Esposito	1.54
Bobby Clarke	1.53
Dominik Hasek	1.22
Mark Messier	1.15
Stan Mikita	1.15

Here's how everyone looks if you drop their top three seasons:

Wayne Gretzky	3.35
Gordie Howe	2.30
Mario Lemieux	1.03
Sidney Crosby	0.96
Jean Beliveau	0.80
Bobby Orr	0.77
Jaromir Jagr	0.69
Bobby Hull	0.69
Alexander Ovechkin	0.61
Connor McDavid	0.46
Phil Esposito	0.44
Bobby Clarke	0.40
Glenn Hall	0.35
Dominik Hasek	0.32
Guy Lafleur	0.30

Pretty similar - in fact, Ovechkin ranks one spot higher on the 2nd list. Obviously Ovechkin had a pretty significant stylistic change after 2010, but I don't think his career was unusually "top heavy".

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Everyone is going to have their own opinion but some of the responses are so ridiculous. "OV hasn't been an elite player since 2010, his career is lacking if we take away a few seasons, etc". Lol no shit, removing a players 4 best seasons makes their career look worse who would have guessed. Take away his first 5 years and OV still has 7 rockets, a hart, hart runner up, 2x lindsay finalist, Smythe, 550 goals, 7x AST, 4x top 10 pts, 10x top 10 goals, 6x top 10 hart. That's a better career than 95% of HoFers. But just for fun let's take away Crosby's 4 best seasons (06/07, 12/13, 13/14, 16/17) and see how his career looks? He's left with 1 rocket, 1 smythe, 2x hart finalist and 4x AST. In other words, not too great. Not hating on Crosby, because we could replace him with Gretzky, Lemieux, McDavid, Jagr, anyone and the result would be the same. It's just stupid to rank a player after removing their 5 best seasons.

I think people are reaching pretty hard in the thread. I can’t think of 10 hockey players with a better resume than Ovechkin. People act like all the players in the top 10 were racking up awards year after year, but most weren’t able to sustain their peak very long.

The great and ageless Jagr only has 1 major award past the age of 30 (Lindsay in 2006). Before that, you have to go back to 2001 when he won his last Art Ross at 29. Almost every major award was earned in a 6-7 year window from 1994 to 2001. It’s basically the same as Ovechkin, they both had a 12 year window between first and last major awards.