Is Alex Ovechkin a top 10 player of all time?

[bert]

Prove it.

Ovies GPG vs the GPG being scored while he was playing.... If anything you need to prove he is not, not vice versa. Plus he is well on his way to being number 2 potentially number 1.

 

[daver]

Ovies GPG vs the GPG being scored while he was playing.... If anything you need to prove he is not, not vice versa. Plus he is well on his way to being number 2 potentially number 1.

Using League GPG is a useless endeavor. Performance vs. your direct peers is the only metric to use.

His GPG vs. the other Top Ten GPGs is not close to being as dominant as many other players' best goalscoring seasons. That has been shown by Wayne, Hull (both), Richard, Howe, Mario.

 

[newfy]

Completely disagree.

Lemieux scoring 85 goals and 199 points with bob Errey and Rob Brown as his wingers, 2 guys who struggled to even stay in the NHL without Lemieux, was nothing short of incredible.

Lemieux's 69 goals in 60 games and 160 points in a season where he missed over a quarter of the season battling cancer may even top that.

Lemieux gets the Bobby Orr treatment because, like Orr, his peak was so far and away ahead of other players

That's not "A little better". Those are 2 of the greatest seasons by a player all time.

You can try to knock "era" all you want, but the fact of the matter is, Lemieux could do it even in the dead puck era(Which was way worse for hobbling skilled players than anything from 2005 forward. He came back in 2001 at age 35 and scored 35 goals and 76 points in 43 games.

He also scored at a disgusting pace in playoff time when teams gameplay and adjust to stop specific players. Better than anything Ovechkin has done in the playoffs.

You can say all this about how insanely good he was (he was), and he accomplished all of that. But Ovechkin still led the league in goals for as many seasons as Lemieux was healthy. What does that say about how consistently great Ovechkin is at scoring goals?

I just noticed that statement as you pointed it out. how did Ovechkin lap the field?

He beat Kovalchuk 65 goals to 52 goals. 25% more goal scoring.

To put it in context, Bobby Hull won the scoring title with 50 goals in a 70 game season in 61/62 a very low scoring era, and he beat the #2 guy (Gordie Howe)who scored 33 goals. 51% better

Also, Gretzky's 92 goals was better than Bossy's 64 goals by a margin of 43.75%
Gretzky then went a notch higher with his 87 goal season beating Goulet's 56 goal season by 55%

Higher scoring years allow for greater total percentage separation but doesnt take league scoring into account. Once again, shit on adjusting for era all you want but when theres way more goals its a lot easier to score 25% more than the next guy instead of just 15% etc.

You do have me with Bobby Hull but I was more talking about all time great seasons. He led the league that year sure but it wasnt reallyth at notable of a season when we're talking about the all time best. His competition was a 35 year old. Yeah thts moving the goal posts a bit for sure but thats more what I was talking about. Ovechkins 65 goal season is absolutely in contention for best goal scoring season ever.

Even Gretzkys 92 goal season, when adjusted he scored 8 more goals over second place compared to Ovechkin over Kovalchuk. Gretzkys season may definitely be more impressive and I wouldnt blame people for thinking that but putting linemates/dmen, and scoring adjusted for the era into the equation those seasons are definitely comparable. Even if you want to call Gretzkys better by a bit, theyre definitely close. I know you dont like era adjusted goals but its the only fair way to adjust for this kind of thing and make it somewhat fair. Its not perfect, but its defnitely better than just saying a percentage or to just say how many goals you think Ovechkin would've had in the 80s

 

[Midnight Judges]

You do have me with Bobby Hull but I was more talking about all time great seasons. He led the league that year sure but it wasnt reallyth at notable of a season when we're talking about the all time best. His competition was a 35 year old. Yeah thts moving the goal posts a bit for sure but thats more what I was talking about. Ovechkins 65 goal season is absolutely in contention for best goal scoring season ever.

The full context is that Bernie Geoffrion equaled Hull's total the year before, and there was no significant change to league scoring, whereas nobody in Ovechkin's era has equaled his peak goal scoring season.

Other players also came closer to Hull's total in his era - adjusted or otherwise - than anyone has come to Ovie.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Using League GPG is a useless endeavor. Performance vs. your direct peers is the only metric to use.

His GPG vs. the other Top Ten GPGs is not close to being as dominant as many other players' best goalscoring seasons. That has been shown by Wayne, Hull (both), Richard, Howe, Mario.

A lot of context your ignoring there. Like games played, and the fact that a majority of those guys played in a significantly higher scoring era. He’s 6th all time in GPG(above Gretzky, Howe, and both Hulls), leading the league in goals more than any of them. Ovechkin still leads all players in leading the league in goals when adjusted too.

Why are you focusing only on “dominance” when Ovechkin has been the only play to be scoring 50 goals for the most part over the last few years. Your standards make no sense.

 

[VanIslander]

No, he isnt... if push comes to shove.

That said,...

Yes, he is, ... if only marginally and arguably so.

That means there are several candidates for 8th, 9th, 10th all time, and he is one of them.

Is he clearly better than FIVE (5) of:

Jagr, Esposito, Hasek, Roy, Shore, Harvey, Richard, Beliveau, Crosby or Hull?

No.

 

[Carlzner]

Duh.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, he isnt... if push comes to shove.

That said,...

Yes, he is, ... if only marginally and arguably so.

That means there are several candidates for 8th, 9th, 10th all time, and he is one of them.

Is he clearly better than FIVE (5) of:

Jagr, Esposito, Hasek, Roy, Shore, Harvey, Richard, Beliveau, Crosby or Hull?

No.

He has an argument for these players. Especially if he breaks the goal record. I wouldn’t say “clearly” better but those 4 aren’t “clearly” better than Ovechkin either, only that there is an argument.

I would certainly put him in the 8-10 range as of right now.

 

[BallardEra]

Does him scoring 900+ goals cement him in the top 10?

 

[buffa dud]

No, but he's the best goal-scorer of all-time. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[EverTheCynic]

I really wanted to argue that he isn't. Then I realized how weak those arguments would be when trying to think of them.

There's nothing to say against the guy. He's one of the best to ever put on skates.

Easily top 10

 

[Xspyrit]

In no particular order:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Ovi
Lidstrom
Bourque
Beliveau
Richard
Crosby

Who will McDavid bump on your list?

 

[centipede2233]

Ovechkin’s international paly and success hurts the argument he’s a top 10 player for me. the last World Cup of hockey in 2017 and the last 2 olympics were really underwelming for him.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I really wanted to argue that he isn't. Then I realized how weak those arguments would be when trying to think of them.

There's nothing to say against the guy. He's one of the best to ever put on skates.

Easily top 10

From the age of 26 on was routinely below ppg and outside the top 10 in scoring and has only hit 90 points once since the age of 24. Only been past the second round once and is horrid in international play

 

[McVespa99]

I dont have Crosby or Ovi top 10 but they are both close

 

[Neutrinos]

I see Ovechkin as the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't come close to a level that warrants consideration among the top 10 all-time


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that (approx.) age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

65 points in 78 games at 26 years old. 71 points in 79 gp at 30 and 69 points in 82 games at 31 is absolutely no where near a top 10 player of all time. Which is why he is clearly behind crosby and mcdavid

 

[BallardEra]

65 points in 78 games at 26 years old. 71 points in 79 gp at 30 and 69 points in 82 games at 31 is absolutely no where near a top 10 player of all time. Which is why he is clearly behind crosby and mcdavid

I don't think the majority of people outside of HF boards will care about that if he ends up with 900+ goals. You already have people saying he's in the conversation for top 5 all time. (not saying I agree)

Many in here romanticize the older era while many others will say current players did it in an era where all global players played head to head.

I just think if he gets to 900+ goals that many out there, outside of this forum, will all have him in the Top 10 whether or not we agree or disagree with it.

 

[hamzarocks]

I have him 12th rn but can see him as high as 9th

Crosby i have 8th but can see as low as 11th

Mcdavid i have 5th and he moved Crosby and OV down 1 spot each

 

[Midnight Judges]

I see Ovechkin as the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't come close to a level that warrants consideration among the top 10 all-time


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that (approx.) age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

If you desire to improperly devalue the best goal scorer of all time, lazily looking at points and +/- while pretending durability is worth precisely nothing is a great way to do it.

In reality, accumulating points via goals is massively more difficult than accumulating points via assists. In fact it's about 72% more difficult (there are approximately 1.72 assists for every goal).

Ovechkin has roughly 50-320% more goals than all the players you listed aside from Jagr - who played nearly 400 more games. Ovie might end his career with 300% of the goals that Datsyuk had. Ovie will end up with 350% of the goals Forsberg scored (probably more actually). Ovie will have scored double the goals Thornton had despite playing fewer games.

Your post is pure hackery. Ovechkin had a great season at age 36, so you simply decided to eliminate it from consideration. You simply tossed it out as if it didn't happen.

You also decided to inexplicably eliminate Ovechkin's 4 best seasons from consideration - which is utterly indefensible in a post about whether or not he's an all-time top 10 player. Again, you are simply pretending things didn't happen to get to your obviously desired result.

 

[Mrb1p]

Gretz
Lem
Orr
Howe
Sid


Are clearly above

After that its a guessing game I guess idk. So tough. Id probably have Jagr, Harvey, the two Gs ahead... but I understand theyre incredibly arguable.

 

[amnesiac]

Yes when its all said and done

Gretzky
Orr
Mario
Howe
Crosby

Ovi
Beliveau
Jagr
Hasek
Hull

Richard
Harvey
Morenz
Bourque
Roy

Mikita
Shore
Lafleur
Lidstrom
Messier/Espo

something like that.... McDavid will undoubtedly be top 10 too.

 

[pi314]

I see Ovechkin as the Kobe Bryant of hockey

He scored more than anyone else because he shot way, way more than anyone else, but his overall impact/value to his team over the majority of his career hasn't come close to a level that warrants consideration among the top 10 all-time


From age 26 - 35, Ovechkin had 706 points in 722 games, winning 7 Richard trophies, but he was also -13 over that span despite being on a playoff team in 9 of those 10 seasons

Now compare that to the production that other stars had during that (approx.) age range:

From 26 - 35, Crosby had 802 points in 686 games while being +102

From 26 - 35, Jagr had 864 points in 692 games while being +129

From 27 - 36, Datsyuk had 715 points in 684 games while being +220

From 26 - 35, Thornton had 838 points in 776 games while being +149

From 26 - 36, Sakic had 863 points in 729 games while being +139

From 26 - 34, Forsberg had 445 points in 362 games while being +135

It just doesn't make sense that a top 10 player of all-time would go entire decade in the middle of his career producing below a point-per-game and having a negative +/-

People will have him top 10 because goals and points.

But in real hockey…

…the one where you have to also stop the other team…

…there are easily 10 better guys if you needed to win a game 7.

I have personally seen him cherry pick in so many obvious defensive situations, including playoffs.

 

[Despote]

The thing with that +/-, and it's a heavily flawed stat and I would prefer at least looking at 5vs5 goal differential, but is anybody who has watched Ovechkin extensively over the last dozen of years surprised that he's a massive negative outlier in that regard when compared to all-time greats?

He hasn't been that great of an even strength player for the majority of his career. It matches the eye-test.

 

[Video Nasty]

This is how it’s going to go when it comes to the consensus on Ovechkin.

He’s already considered top 10 by many, like it or not. If/when he breaks Gretzky’s goals record and ends up inside the top 10 in points by the end of his career, paired with all the hardware he has won, his case is ironclad. These are such easy things to point to for people and the crowd who wants to go beyond that is small and just not relevant enough.

But after his first 5 seasons, of which he was the top player 3 times and perhaps top 5 in his rookie season, how many times has he been the best player in the league?

Top 5?

How many times in 13 out of the past 18 seasons has he even been a top 10 player when only considering his peers each season, let alone all-time?

That’s when it feels weird whenever anyone talks about him as top 5-10 ever over the last few years and from here on out. Assuming he finishes out the contract and plays 21 seasons, he’ll have not been top 5-10 in an overwhelmingly majority of them.