Is Alex Ovechkin a top 10 player of all time?

[GreatGonzo]

You could have fooled me by the fact the your name appears in practically every Crosby thread, to some effect, and it is very rarely to do anything but discredit his accomplishments (especially if he's being compared to OV). I'm not defending daver; just claiming that the bias goes both ways.

I'm guilty myself of getting sucked in to these dumb back-and-forths, as it's easy to get riled up with all the illogical crap about "secondary assists" and "riding Malkin's coattails" that usually gets spewed by the usual suspects. That said, I've pretty much lost interest in this tired debate, since I realized that I shouldn't have to tear down my second favorite player of this generation (OV) just to defend my favorite player of this generation (Crosby). They are both legends and it's sad that a lot of people can't accept that.

Your defending someone who already has the reputation, so I have no clue what your point is. I’m not in any Crosby threads, I’m not talking about Crosby, yet Daver comes in purely off of the impulse of HAVING to talk about Crosby....so it’s fine, see it how you want it, but Daver is far from a rational and logical person, especially when talking about anything Crosby.

Well, your bigger than most people. And I agree. I’ve never said anything less of Crosby being the best of the generation, my distaste for the homerism that seems to follow him around is selective things in certain topics that come up. But the fact is, there are a lot of Crosby lovers who NEED to put Ovechkin down and/or compare him to Crosby to further a negative narrative. I feel Ovechkin will never get the respect he deserves, especially while posters like Daver patrol the main boards, making sure Crosby is being properly discussed and praised accordingly.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What's suspect with Ovi's peak demise is that it didn't coincide with any injuries, he just stopped being a dominant player all of a sudden, while still being young...

That's not accurate.

Ovechkin missed more games in 2009-10 than any other season. He had a shoulder injury and a knee injury. I've never seen Ovie get carried off the ice except for that one time. He's not one to dramatize injuries. He plays through them all the time. It's not that he never breaks, it's that he never quits.

He is a pretty tough guy:

and two seasons later he had a healthy season with 65 points, then 9 points in 14 playoff games when his team bailed out against the Rangers in the 2nd round.

And yet he led his team in goals by a huge margin (81% more than Alex Semin), and points by a pretty good margin (20%). Ovie also led the team in points and goals in the playoffs. So what you portray as an Ovechkin problem without context, was really a team problem and a coaching problem. Bruce Boudreau - after getting out-coached in every playoff series he was ever involved in - got fired early in the season after switching to a trap system because he had lost all confidence and was desperate. Dale Hunter then came in and took things to an extreme in a system that was all defense and no offense - often referred to unaffectionately as "Hunter hockey" among Caps fans. Ovie was laying out and blocking shots with his body - dutifully doing whatever Hunter asked. It was obvious that Ovie wasn't being deployed properly, Hunter's system was massively flawed. Hunter was not asked back for a second season, nor has he coached in the NHL since.

Despite Hunter's ineptitude, they took down the defending champion Bruins. Ovie's physicality was a huge part of that.

They lost by 1 goal to the Rangers in game 7 of the second round. The important context here is that the Caps were playing a brand of hockey that absolutely minimized scoring in both directions. That series had 2.0 goals per game - actually less than that because there was a triple OT game in Washington (I was actually there, second row behind the glass). No player in the world was going to put up big numbers playing that style of Hunter hockey. It is not possible.

 

[bobbyking]

you know what I change my opinion after looking at the others I think it isnt a bad ranking if hes within the top 10, but it's pretty close

 

[McVespa99]

It is so hard to rank players once you get past Gretz, the big 3 and then Hasek for me. Ovy feels like something around tenth spot to me though.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Hasek
Howe
Crosby
Beliveau
Lafleur
Bourque
Ovechkin

I'm convinced. His goal scoring ability alone puts him at #10 for me. Obviously he used to be more explosive and dynamic but he shoots the puck from the same spot and still gets 50/year. Shame this season may get cancelled. Seems that odds are against his record breaking potential. His trophy case is insane.

 

[DCarriere]

There's some severely conflicting opinions here. Which can probably be attributed to different generation's view on the subject.

 

[Ms Maggie]

When I take over the world, any discussions of Ovi that reference Crosby will be punishable by death. Long and painful death. And visa versa.

 

[Mitch nylander]

I'm not in any boat here regarding these two players, but this is too silly. Ovi was out-pointed and generally out-played by his own line-mate during the 2018 playoffs. Kuznetsov was tap-dancing all over the ice, zone-entering like a maniac, setting up guys left and right with free candy, scored the series-winning goal against the arch-rivals, and out-pointed Ovi in the finals against Vegas.

Ovi scored 3 more goals than Kuznetsov. If Edmonton won the Cup in 2006 against Carolina should Fernando Pisani have won the Smythe over Pronger? He (Pisani) did score 9 more goals than Pronger after all those playoffs.

But to be fair Crosby's Conn Smythes weren't much more impressive.

In his first CS. He was second on his team in points, tied for 3rd in goals.
In his second CS. He was second on his team in points, tied for 3rd in goals.

Overall, I think this is a silly argument..

Regardless, both players are exceptionally talented and are both top 10 players. Hardware is hardware any way you see it. The argument between these two players has started to become tiresome.
If you want a goal scorer you take ovi if you want a playmaker you take crosby...

 

[newfy]

Hes got as much of an argument as any winger not named Howe. Is he for sure better than Hull, Richard or Jagr? No, but theres definitely arguments for him above those guys. I would definitely rate him above Jagr having seen both play. The other ones are tougher but his resume is better than Richards and extremely comparable to Hull. Richard has the whole french icon thing and the riots and stuff like that going for him that I dont really think should be factored in but they are for a lot of people. I have OV ahead of Richard but I get why some wouldnt.

If a canadian player came into the league, had the peak Ovechkin did, scored that many goals and laid that many people out while having a very real shot at Gretzkys goal record this wouldnt even be close to a discussion for 99% of people

 

[Merrrlin]

If Ovechkin is in on goal scoring, where do we have Mr. Mike Bossy?

For the record, I have Ovi in my top 10 all time.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If Ovechkin is in on goal scoring, where do we have Mr. Mike Bossy?

Top 85 maybe.

 

[daver]

Hes got as much of an argument as any winger not named Howe. Is he for sure better than Hull, Richard or Jagr? No, but theres definitely arguments for him above those guys. I would definitely rate him above Jagr having seen both play. The other ones are tougher but his resume is better than Richards and extremely comparable to Hull. Richard has the whole french icon thing and the riots and stuff like that going for him that I dont really think should be factored in but they are for a lot of people. I have OV ahead of Richard but I get why some wouldnt.

If a canadian player came into the league, had the peak Ovechkin did, scored that many goals and laid that many people out while having a very real shot at Gretzkys goal record this wouldnt even be close to a discussion for 99% of people

Jagr had more seasons closer to his peak form than OV did, and reached a higher offensive ceiling. He was also a more dominant playoff performer.

Same thing for Hull. He did not see the big drop in overall scoring finishes as OV did as he got older.

Richard's playoff resume is a clear level above OV's while their regular season one is close.

OV needed to stay closer to his 07 - 10 form for more years than he did to ultimately be among the very best of the 2nd tier all-time.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

What's suspect with Ovi's peak demise is that it didn't coincide with any injuries, he just stopped being a dominant player all of a sudden, while still being young, and two seasons later he had a healthy season with 65 points, then 9 points in 14 playoff games when his team bailed out against the Rangers in the 2nd round.

Ovi's goal/assist ratio this season.... he's doing it again. He's 9th on his team in assists at the moment. He's got 4 more assists at the moment than.... Radko Gudas. 3 more assists than Hagelin and Kempny. And rebound-assists are most likely relatively heftily included in that package....... that's the gold standard of a designated sniper.

He's also –14 with only 2 other players on the team being minus (Bäckström –1, Kuznetsov –2).

He didn't stop being a dominant player, he's been dominant all year. Assists are such a weird argument to bring up when a guy is the best goal scorer in the league since he entered it. Look at all those other goal scorers on his line! Tom Wilson is the closest with 21 and Backstrom has 12. Kuznetsov has been an absolutely disaster pretty much all year and the powerplay is the worst it has been since 2011. Despite this, Ovechkin produces. It would be one thing if someone on the Capitals was consistently out scoring him, but this is a team that continues to win divisions with him being their leading scorer and your problem is he isn't getting 10 more secondaries a year? Is that the difference between being dominant?

Quoting plus minus is just poor form, I mean isn't Draisaitl -10? Who cares, it tells you nothing.

On topic? He's absolutely in the top 10 all time.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Jagr had more seasons closer to his peak form than OV did, and reached a higher offensive ceiling. He was also a more dominant playoff performer.

Same thing for Hull. He did not see the big drop in overall scoring finishes as OV did as he got older.

Richard's playoff resume is a clear level above OV's while their regular season one is close.

OV needed to stay closer to his 07 - 10 form for more years than he did to ultimately be among the very best of the 2nd tier all-time.

Hull had two below PPG seasons in the middle of his peak and saw seasons where he put up 75 points in 71 games in between two top seasons and saw 67 points in 61 games after a 100+ point season. He had some “down” years but it’s rarely used against him.

How is Richards regular season any close to Ovechkins? That’s a laugh. 3 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 8 Rockets and a scoring title......that takes a back seat to what exactly? Richard has one Hart and it came at arguably the weakest point in that era competition wise. Ovechkins regular season is superior and it isn’t close at all.

Why? Do you have any idea how hard that is to continue that pace and how many players have actually produced at that level for longer? Maybe a handful? Crosby couldn’t even do that. Maybe stop upping the standards for Ovechkins case because you feel like it, his 06-10 span is one of the best most dominant all time. The fact that he continued to be a dominant goal scorer and still managed to accomplish more in terms of Hart voting and scoring finishes, it only adds to it.

Seriously, you are so beyond bias.

 

[bobholly39]

If Ovechkin is in on goal scoring, where do we have Mr. Mike Bossy?

For the record, I have Ovi in my top 10 all time.

Bossy is top ~30-40 all-time.
Ovechkin is top ~15 imo. Maybe fringe top 10, but i feel safer saying top 15.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Top 85 maybe.

I agree that Bossy gets overrated by a lot of fans who don't understand the context behind his numbers, but this seems like an overreaction. I'd be hard-pressed to name 50 players who were better than Bossy all-time (let alone 85).

 

[newfy]

Jagr had more seasons closer to his peak form than OV did, and reached a higher offensive ceiling. He was also a more dominant playoff performer.

Same thing for Hull. He did not see the big drop in overall scoring finishes as OV did as he got older.

Richard's playoff resume is a clear level above OV's while their regular season one is close.

OV needed to stay closer to his 07 - 10 form for more years than he did to ultimately be among the very best of the 2nd tier all-time.

I dont think Richards regular seasons are close enough that his playoffs make up for it. Your entire argument is hinging on those guys having higher overall scoring finishes but it disregards that OV is the best goal scorer of the bunch and its becoming a nice gap between him and Hull as well. Jagr gets a lot of love nowadays which is deserved (and I think hes top 10 as well), but peoplereally started hyping him once he was like 43, still in the league and doing well. Theres a reason with all those scoring finishes he only has one hart trophy.

If OV stayed closer to his 07-2010 form we would be putting him at 5th overall. Since 2010 he has a Hart trophy, 6 Richards (probably 7 if you want to count this year), and a Conn Smythe. How much more can you really expect from the guy?

 

[Halla]

How about Beliveau or Bobby Hull?

Ovechkin has better numbers than both of those guys in an era where scoring is down a lot.

Hull is top 10, Beliveau isnt

 

[daver]

I dont think Richards regular seasons are close enough that his playoffs make up for it. Your entire argument is hinging on those guys having higher overall scoring finishes but it disregards that OV is the best goal scorer of the bunch and its becoming a nice gap between him and Hull as well. Jagr gets a lot of love nowadays which is deserved (and I think hes top 10 as well), but peoplereally started hyping him once he was like 43, still in the league and doing well. Theres a reason with all those scoring finishes he only has one hart trophy.

If OV stayed closer to his 07-2010 form we would be putting him at 5th overall. Since 2010 he has a Hart trophy, 6 Richards (probably 7 if you want to count this year), and a Conn Smythe. How much more can you really expect from the guy?

OV may become the greatest goalscorer due to longevity but he is not the best. He is among at least three to four others (Wayne, Mario, Hull, Richard) for that title.

And as we have seen over the past seven seasons, OV's goal totals do not automatically place him among the league's best players in any given season. He is clearly the the player who gets teed up the most out of his peers.

 

[bert]

In no particular order:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Ovi
Lidstrom
Bourque
Beliveau
Richard
Crosby

Bourque over Ovie and JAGR lol come on dude.

 

[TheGuiminator]

With another Rocket this season (7 in the last 8 season), Ovechkin is definitely sniffing the top 10 all-time.

Every year he’s adding to his legacy and his resume. He’s now 34 and he still finds a way to out-score his peers who’s at their peak.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

OV may become the greatest goalscorer due to longevity but he is not the best. He is among at least three to four others (Wayne, Mario, Hull, Richard) for that title.

And as we have seen over the past seven seasons, OV's goal totals do not automatically place him among the league's best players in any given season. He is clearly the the player who gets teed up the most out of his peers.

Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Richard and he's a better player as well. Nothing supports Richard being better at this point and Ovechkin isn't done. Crazy talk.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Mine was in no particular order.

 

[newfy]

OV may become the greatest goalscorer due to longevity but he is not the best. He is among at least three to four others (Wayne, Mario, Hull, Richard) for that title.

And as we have seen over the past seven seasons, OV's goal totals do not automatically place him among the league's best players in any given season. He is clearly the the player who gets teed up the most out of his peers.

No hes the greatest goal scorer because his peak is as good as anyones goal scoring wise and his longevity is better than anyone. Wayne doesnt have an argument over him anymore given the eras they played in and is really more of a longevity thing compared to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has a similar ability to score goals as Lemieux but did it longer, hes ahead. Richard? Great way to get your opinion not taken seriously

Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Richard and he's a better player as well. Nothing supports Richard being better at this point and Ovechkin isn't done. Crazy talk.

Unless you take the whole cultural french stuff and riots into account for "greatest" player. But as far as actually ranking as just hockey players goes, Ovechkin is definitely ahead

 

[daver]

No hes the greatest goal scorer because his peak is as good as anyones goal scoring wise and his longevity is better than anyone. Wayne doesnt have an argument over him anymore given the eras they played in and is really more of a longevity thing compared to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has a similar ability to score goals as Lemieux but did it longer, hes ahead. Richard? Great way to get your opinion not taken seriously

Prove it.