Is Alex Ovechkin a top 10 player of all time?

[Randyne]

his mediocre point totals

Ovechkin is #16 by raw points and #10 by adjusted points.
If healthy, will end somewhere #8 raw and #4 adjusted.
What mediocre is this?

Mike Gartner has more career goals than Messier, Yzerman, Lemieux, Sakic, Bobby Hull, Bossy, LaFleur, Crosby, Richard, Mikita, and Trottier

Ovechkin has 8 top1 GPGs and 3 top1 PPGs. Gartner has 0 and 0.
Only Gretzky and Lemieux have more top1 GPG+PPG

 

[filinski77]

I love Ovi and think he's the undisputed goal scoring GOAT but his mediocre point totals and all around play past the age of 25 def needs to be held against him a little bit. I have him comfortably top 15 and in that group of players who can maybe make a claim to number 10.

I mean, if Auston Matthews, who is now heading into his 26 year old season, scores only 65 points in 78 games while being fully healthy the way Ovi did at age 26 he will be absolutely crucified.

"but his mediocre point totals"
-> 16th all-time in points (will end up higher)
-> 10th all-time in adjusted points (will end up higher)
-> 9th all-time in # of times leading the league in points/gp
-> 6th most top-20 point finishes in NHL history

"I mean, if Auston Matthews, who is now heading into his 26 year old season, scores only 65 points in 78 games while being fully healthy the way Ovi did at age 26 he will be absolutely crucified."
Who cares about Ovechkin's single worst season of his career? How does that one season impact anything lol. Ovechkin finished 37th in points and 5th in goals that year. The equivalent point/goal finish in 2023 scoring would be 51 goals and 77 points.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

There are too many narrative-based statements about how Ovechkin wasn’t elite since his peak. And these statements usually come from people who put Crosby ahead of Ovechkin based on Crosby being longer in the top tier. This is not meaningfully backed by any stats. Some seasons since Ovechkin’s peak:

2015:

Ovechkin (29 y/o) 81GP-53G-28A-81P, +10 >>
Crosby (27 y/o) 77GP-28G-56A-84P, +5

2018:

Ovechkin (32 y/o) 82GP-49G-38A-87P, +5
>>
Crosby (30 y/o) 82GP-29G-60A-89P, 0

2022
Ovechkin (36 y/o) 77GP-50G-40A-90P, +8
>>
Crosby (34 y/o) 69GP-31G-53A-84P, +19

Not too shabby for an old man who supposedly wasn’t a good player since his peak, huh?

Seems like some guys really like narratives. I have a good one for you. Since their respective peaks one player was floating around getting secondary assists with another #1C while the other was winning Richards being the key player on his team.

And so you know better which one was a bad player since his peak (Ovechkin) and which one was elite (Crosby) let’s look beyond RS.

Ovechkin’s CS in 2018 (32 y/o)
(24GP–12G-15A-27P, +8)

Crosby’s CS in 2016 (28 y/o)
(24GP-6G-13A-19P, -2)

Crosby’s CS in 2017 (29 y/o)
(24GP-8G-19A-27P, +5)

One-dimensional scorer’s total assists (with +8) in 2018 were closer to all-time great longevity Selke-level centre’s total points in 2016 (with -2) than their total points to each other.

 

[HFpapi]

Ovechkin is #16 by raw points and #10 by adjusted points.
If healthy, will end somewhere #8 raw and #4 adjusted.
What mediocre is this?

"but his mediocre point totals"
-> 16th all-time in points (will end up higher)
-> 10th all-time in adjusted points (will end up higher)
-> 9th all-time in # of times leading the league in points/gp
-> 6th most top-20 point finishes in NHL history

"I mean, if Auston Matthews, who is now heading into his 26 year old season, scores only 65 points in 78 games while being fully healthy the way Ovi did at age 26 he will be absolutely crucified."
Who cares about Ovechkin's single worst season of his career? How does that one season impact anything lol. Ovechkin finished 37th in points and 5th in goals that year. The equivalent point/goal finish in 2023 scoring would be 51 goals and 77 points.

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Those are the forwards you are looking at in top 10 contention.

Ovechkin hit 90 points once after the age of 24.

In the context of this conversation he is a mediocre point producer. And I really do love Ovechkin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

crazy that 1/4 voters can't acknowledge the greatest goal scorer as a top 10 player.

You either gotta be a big time hater that isn't mature enough yet to put the hate goggles away to recognize real or you legitimately lack knowledge when it comes to this sport.

That really is what this boils down to.

Objectively speaking, there is no case for Ovechkin being outside the top 10.

 

[Caps8112]

There are too many narrative-based statements about how Ovechkin wasn’t elite since his peak. And these statements usually come from people who put Crosby ahead of Ovechkin based on Crosby being longer in the top tier. This is not meaningfully backed by any stats. Some seasons since Ovechkin’s peak:

2015:

Ovechkin (29 y/o) 81GP-53G-28A-81P, +10 >>
Crosby (27 y/o) 77GP-28G-56A-84P, +5

2018:

Ovechkin (32 y/o) 82GP-49G-38A-87P, +5
>>
Crosby (30 y/o) 82GP-29G-60A-89P, 0

2022
Ovechkin (36 y/o) 77GP-50G-40A-90P, +8
>>
Crosby (34 y/o) 69GP-31G-53A-84P, +19

Not too shabby for an old man who supposedly wasn’t a good player since his peak, huh?

Seems like some guys really like narratives. I have a good one for you. Since their respective peaks one player was floating around getting secondary assists with another #1C while the other was winning Richards being the key player on his team.

And so you know better which one was a bad player since his peak (Ovechkin) and which one was elite (Crosby) let’s look beyond RS.

Ovechkin’s CS in 2018 (32 y/o)
(24GP–12G-15A-27P, +8)

Crosby’s CS in 2016 (28 y/o)
(24GP-6G-13A-19P, -2)

Crosby’s CS in 2017 (29 y/o)
(24GP-8G-19A-27P, +5)

One-dimensional scorer’s total assists (with +8) in 2018 were closer to all-time great longevity Selke-level centre’s total points in 2016 (with -2) than their total points to each other.

now youve done it. here comes the "But crosby reinvented the defensive forward top secret special assignment coverage" crowd one of those years.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Ovechkin was playing through multiple injuries. The premise of your question is utterly false.

 

[bobholly39]

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Those are the forwards you are looking at in top 10 contention.

Ovechkin hit 90 points once after the age of 24.

In the context of this conversation he is a mediocre point producer. And I really do love Ovechkin.

This is such a horrible take, and ridiculous cherry picking.

Ovechkin had a bad season. It happens. Who says he was 100% perfectly healthy? Also - most players in history have bad seasons. Look at how bad Howe's age 26 season was after 4 straight art ross'es.

Jagr had a bad 3 year stretch at ages 29-31.

Focusing on a player's worst season to try and prove a point is dumb.

 

[bobholly39]

That really is what this boils down to.

Objectively speaking, there is no case for Ovechkin being outside the top 10.

Of course there is. There are a lot of great players in history with fantastic resumes. He has a case for top 10, but a lot of others do too.

Ovechkin was playing through multiple injuries. The premise of your question is utterly false.

Your posts indicate that you would rate Ovechkin higher had he simply sat out - which runs counter to reality where a player at even Ovechkin's lowest level is still a tremendous asset. Sure, Ovie could have sat out. That is certainly what Mario Lemieux would have done. And Ovie's PPG, GPG, and reputation would have looked much better, while in reality he would have been hurtting the team.

The truth is, nobody in any sport is rated based on their worst seasons. Rather, athletes are rightfully judged by their highest achievements - but you desire to do that to Ovechkin because you are a hater.

I agree with your overall point here - but the bolded is such a hilarious shot at Lemieux. Lemieux played through worst injuries than most NHL players/athletes ever have. He may have missed a lot of times - but if he wasn't able to play through injuries he likely would have retired by 1990.

 

[HFpapi]

This is such a horrible take, and ridiculous cherry picking.

Ovechkin had a bad season. It happens. Who says he was 100% perfectly healthy? Also - most players in history have bad seasons. Look at how bad Howe's age 26 season was after 4 straight art ross'es.

Jagr had a bad 3 year stretch at ages 29-31.

Focusing on a player's worst season to try and prove a point is dumb.

For a top 10 player he had multiple average seasons in his prime.

I'm not disparaging him or saying he's not one of the best to ever do it. But not top 10. He needs to be compared against the other candidates for top 10. They weren't going below PPG in their prime.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I agree with your overall point here - but the bolded is such a hilarious shot at Lemieux. Lemieux played through worst injuries than most NHL players/athletes ever have. He may have missed a lot of times - but if he wasn't able to play through injuries he likely would have retired by 1990.

Lemieux quit from injuries that he could have played through. That is a fact.

He stopped quitting in, what, December of 2000? There was nothing stopping him from starting at the beginning of the season along with every other player - aside from his quitter mentality.

So again, if that was Ovechkin, he'd be playing. Whereas since it was Lemieux, he was on the golf course swinging a club while telling you he had a bad back.

 

[Midnight Judges]

For a top 10 player he had multiple average seasons in his prime.

I'm not disparaging him or saying he's not one of the best to ever do it. But not top 10. He needs to be compared against the other candidates for top 10. They weren't going below PPG in their prime.

They also weren't playing through injuries in a DPE.

And again, athletes aren't judged by their worst, but rather their best. I mean, are we going to go on and on about how Sidney Crosby was swept out of the playoffs while being held pointless for an entire series? Are we going to base his legacy on that? No. Nobody ever brings that up. Because for Crosby, we judge him based on his highest achievements - and rightfully so.

 

[norrisnick]

Lemieux quit from injuries that he could have played through. That is a fact.

In fact he came back in, what, December of 2000? There was nothing stopping him from starting at the beginning of the season along with every other player - aside from his quitter mentality.

Lemieux didn't quit from injuries. He quit because he was bummed that he had to try.

They also weren't playing through injuries in a DPE.

And again, athletes aren't judged by their worst, but rather their best. I mean, are we going to go on and on about how Sidney Crosby was swept out of the playoffs while being held pointless for an entire series? Are we going to base his legacy on that? No. Nobody ever brings that up. Because for Crosby, we judge him based on his highest achievements - and rightfully so.

And we pretend that he'd have even higher achievements during the games he didn't play. It's why his peak is considered the 3 season stretch where he missed 113 games. Those unplayed games hold so much magic in them.

 

[FrankSidebottom]

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Those are the forwards you are looking at in top 10 contention.

Ovechkin hit 90 points once after the age of 24.

In the context of this conversation he is a mediocre point producer. And I really do love Ovechkin.

Obviously Ovechkin, Gretzky and Lemieux are not comparable. But Ovechkin, Jagr, Bobby Hull, Lafleur and some others are.

Lafleur had worse pre-peak and worse post-peak career. He was essentially done as an elite player after turning 30, he won nothing and wasn’t even close then. Ovechkin after turning 30 won 4x Richard, the Conn Smythe, 1-AS, 2-AS.

Bobby Hull had down years at 22 (56 in 67 after the Art Ross with 81 in 70) and at 24 (62 in 65 after the Art Ross with 84 in 70).

 

[Midnight Judges]

Obviously Ovechkin, Gretzky and Lemieux are not comparable. But Ovechkin, Jagr, Bobby Hull, Lafleur and some others are.

Lafleur had worse pre-peak and worse post-peak career. He was essentially done as an elite player after turning 30, he won nothing and wasn’t even close then. Ovechkin after turning 30 won 4x Richard, the Conn Smythe, 1-AS, 2-AS.

Bobby Hull had down years at 22 (56 in 67 after the Art Ross with 81 in 70) and at 24 (62 in 65 after the Art Ross with 84 in 70).

Funny how that doesn't ever get brought up with Bobby Hull. Like never.

 

[HarrySPlinkett]

Because you don't simply rank players based on who scores the most goals?

That said, I do have Gretzky in the top 10

The leading goal scorer in the history of the sport is by definition a top-10 player.

 

[filinski77]

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Those are the forwards you are looking at in top 10 contention.

Ovechkin hit 90 points once after the age of 24.

In the context of this conversation he is a mediocre point producer. And I really do love Ovechkin.

"Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?"
Gretzky/Lemieux (and likely Mcdavid) are so far ahead of the players in that 6-10 range that it's useless to use them as a benchmark. And as has been pointed out, Howe and Jagr had some bad seasons too. Even look at Lafleur from ages 20/21/22 - he wasn't even close to an elite player those 3 first years, but it's silly to actually hold that against him.

"Ovechkin hit 90 points once after the age of 24."
You do realize that Ovechkin played in the DPE2.0 after the age of 24 right?
-> 2011 = 85 points and finished 7th in points. 90 points would have put him at 6th place
-> 2012 = Ovechkins career down-year, but 90 points would have put him in 4th place in points
-> 2013 = lockout season, Ovechkin finishes 3rd in points (96 point pace)
-> 2014 = Ovechkin finishes 8th in points. 90 points would have put him 2nd place
-> 2015 = Ovechkin finishes 4th in points. 90 points would have put him in 1st place.

So from ages 25-29, Ovechkin plays in extremely low scoring environments, has a lockout (where he had the best season of all forwards - although Crosby was the best player), wins 3 straight rockets, and has 4 great point finishes (all while being the best goal scorer).

Then Ovechkin turns 30 (which is when most elite players start to decline anyways.
-> 2016 = 1st in goals and 15th in points (which is fantastic for a 30 year old). 90 points would have put him 2nd in points.
-> 2017 = another down year (but Ovechkin still finishes 13th in goals and 20th in points - which is great for a 31 year old). 90 points would have finished 2nd place

By now Ovechkin is 32 years old, and league scoring increases again.
-> 2018 = 1st in goals, 11th in points with 87
-> 2019 = 89 points (1 off, and missed 1 game - who cares?)

As you can see, your comment about 90 points lacks a ton of context.

"In the context of this conversation he is a mediocre point producer."
-> In the context of the NHL (and substantiated by all of the stats on his points, adjusted points, point/gp leads, # of times in top-20 in points), Ovechkin is one of the best point producers of all-time. While also being the best goal-scorer of all-time. Ovechkin adding 2-3 more Rosses would be the difference from a top 6-10 player off all-time and a top-4 player of all-time.

 

[Neutrinos]

I don't think his overall impact puts him among the top 10 best players of all-time

For example, if given a choice heading into a 7-game series, is anyone taking Ovechkin over Pronger?

Or what about someone like Datsyuk? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if over the majority of their careers, Datsyuk's well-rounded game had a greater positive impact on games than Ovechkin's

Outside of a few elite seasons early in his career, I don't see much of a difference between Ovechkin and Kovalchuk

 

[bobholly39]

For a top 10 player he had multiple average seasons in his prime.

I'm not disparaging him or saying he's not one of the best to ever do it. But not top 10. He needs to be compared against the other candidates for top 10. They weren't going below PPG in their prime.

Gordie Howe. age 26. 62 points in 64 games. Below ppg. Strong logic there - Gordie Howe now gets bumped down to #11 all-time because we're focusing on one bad season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I don't think his overall impact puts him among the top 10 best players of all-time

For example, if given a choice heading into a 7-game series, is anyone taking Ovechkin over Pronger?

Or what about someone like Datsyuk? It wouldn't surprise me in the least if over the majority of their careers, Datsyuk's well-rounded game had a greater positive impact on games than Ovechkin's

Outside of a few elite seasons early in his career, I don't see much of a difference between Ovechkin and Kovalchuk

Really.

Ovechkin won a Hart in 2013 and was the best skater in the NHL again in 2015, and led the NHL in goals 7 times post-peak, while also winning a Conn Smythe. But you don't see a difference between that and a guy who was barely ever top 10 in Hart voting and led the NHL in goals once.

Only a hater would take Datsyuk or Pronger over Ovechkin. Those guys are not remotely on Ovechkin's level. Peak Datsyuk got trounced by Ovechkin for the Hart (243 first place votes to 4) and the players also chose Ovie (Pearson).

There is a regular in the history forum who claims - with a straight face - that Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin.

 

[Hivemind]

For a top 10 player he had multiple average seasons in his prime.

This isn't a ranking of "Top 10 players with the least amount of bad seasons before age 30." This is simply a ranking of top 10 players. It doesn't particularly matter if or when they have a "bad season." It's an aggregate of their entire career's peaks and valleys.

 

[HFpapi]

Gordie Howe. age 26. 62 points in 64 games. Below ppg. Strong logic there - Gordie Howe now gets bumped down to #11 all-time because we're focusing on one bad season.

Howe was 5th in scoring that year.

Ovechkin was 37th in scoring the year in question.

1950's isn't comparable point total wise.

 

[Randyne]

Could you ever imagine Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Lafleur etc having 65 points in 78 games dead smack in the middle of their prime (26 years old) while perfectly heathy?

Easily. Coaching sabotage.
His mother said he wasn't happy with coaching that time.

 

[wasunder]

Ovechkin is definitely in that top 5-15 range that’s really crowded. He could slot anywhere in there, personally I would have him at 7, 6 if we aren’t counting goalies.

 

[bobholly39]

Really.

Ovechkin won a Hart in 2013 and was the best skater in the NHL again in 2015, and led the NHL in goals 7 times post-peak, while also winning a Conn Smythe. But you don't see a difference between that and a guy who was barely ever top 10 in Hart voting and led the NHL in goals once.

Only a hater would take Datsyuk or Pronger over Ovechkin. Those guys are not remotely on Ovechkin's level. Peak Datsyuk got trounced by Ovechkin for the Hart (243 first place votes to 4) and the players also chose Ovie (Pearson).

There is a regular in the history forum who claims - with a straight face - that Ryan Getzlaf is better than Ovechkin.

No - there isn't. You're full of shit on that one, and have been called out on it multiple times.

But when all else fails - I guess propaganda is the way to go. Lies, lies and more lies by you. Par for the course in a thread about Ovechkin.