Goaltending, defense
- Thread starter Crazy Cizikas
- Start date
Why not make a play for Kari Lehtonen in Dallas. He has a hefty salary this year and becomes a UFA this summer. Good chance with Bishop signed long term, they will let Kari walk. If given the opportunity to get something for Lehtonen, they may bite. I would propose a goalie going back and a good carrot to dangle. Lehtonen for Halak and JHS. Halak gives them a viable backup with no salary commitment after the year so their goaltending situation (from a money prospective and future plans) doesn't change. We get the better goalie with a plan to re-sign for a few years in which Dallas won't. Dallas get JHS, a cap controlled player with undetermined upside. Looking through all the other teams, I can't see another trade that would make this much sense for both teams.
SLAPSHOT723
QU! Bobcats!
Lehtonen is terrible. There's a reason they brought in Bishop and paying over $10M in goalies.
Yeah, not seeing any moves worth making.
What I can't understand is why NYI do not bring of Devon Toews. Seriously, I just don't get it. Somebody that can skate is absolutely needed to play with Pulock or Mayfield. He's done everything to deserve a shot and de Haan's injury is the right time. I don't get it.
What I can't understand is why NYI do not bring of Devon Toews. Seriously, I just don't get it. Somebody that can skate is absolutely needed to play with Pulock or Mayfield. He's done everything to deserve a shot and de Haan's injury is the right time. I don't get it.
LastWordArmy
Registered User
The team needs to go all-in before the deadline and improve the goaltending and defence. Management has to prove that they are ready to take this team to the next level.
Islanders need to go all-in at Trade Deadline to convince John Tavares
Islanders need to go all-in at Trade Deadline to convince John Tavares
I think it’s Weight’s aversion to having too many inexperienced defensemen in the same game. That’s why he keeps shuffling Hickey and Seidenberg in and out of the lineup. I don’t think Weight wants a bottom 4 of first and second year defensemen.
Agreed. Especially with the lack of depth on the bottom 2 forward lines.
Weight did dress 7D for a few games earlier and used Pulock exclusively on the PP before He started trusting him with more minutes.
leeroggy
Registered User
- Jan 3, 2010
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I put this in the Brathwaite thread but I want to put it here too in the Goalie/Defense thread:
The system we talk about is 'playing with speed', getting the breakout going quickly, etc. That means by definition we are not thinking defense first.
Frankly, I have no idea what a 'goalie system' looks like from a goaltending coach. Both Halak and Greiss have been around the block for many NHL years. I've got to think that coaching a goalie at the NHL level is pretty much solely film analysis and helping them get back to what made the goalie NHL caliber to begin with after a certain number of years in the NHL, and then it comes down to executing the adjustments.
On this site we all bemoaned Capuano's shift a few years ago from a forechecking, pressing the opposition's defense to a more structured defensive posture (or as we used to define here, a BORING approach). When Weight took over and flipped that around we all cheered about the attractiveness of the new system and the last 40 games were great last year.
In the last 40 games last season we gave up more than 3 goals in regulation only ELEVEN times, out of the 40. Compare that to the AVERAGE GAA this season of 3.5. In only 14 of those 40 games did we give up 33 shots on goal or more. This season we have given up 33 or more shots 17 times in the first 35 games and a lot of games were at 32.
But then you look at the differential between SOG and Shots Against we are 21st in that, but the number is only -53, so that is only 1.5 shots more against than for. Not a huge number.
Most damning is that the teams behind us in that number include Toronto, Anaheim (easily the worst in the league at over -200!!), New Jersey, Nashville, the Rangers, Washington and Minnesota.
If our defense stinks so much, and our 'system' is too aggressive, how do we explain teams with worse stats playing so much better right now? And the top 3 teams on shot differential in the league? Carolina, Pittsburgh and Edmonton! Hardly defensive juggernauts and teams with 'safe' systems!
Now look at the entire 2016-17. Know where we ranked in shot differential?
24th overall! We have IMPROVED from last year in shot differential versus the league overall. And our pace this year is almost EXACTLY the same numbers! Minus 136 for the season, or minus 1.66 per game for the year.
In 2016-17 we gave up 2,616 shots on goal, or 31.90 per game. This year we have given up 1,138 in 35 games, or 32.5 per game, barely a difference!
Is there a difference in shot quality they face? Maybe. But that takes more analysis than I can provide here. Maybe one of the stats gurus here can do that analysis.
Sorry to the apologists for Halak or Greiss right now but the stats, never mind the eye test, show that they are not getting the job done.
So it comes down to one thing only . . . and I doubt it's because the goaltending coach can't read game film.
The system we talk about is 'playing with speed', getting the breakout going quickly, etc. That means by definition we are not thinking defense first.
Frankly, I have no idea what a 'goalie system' looks like from a goaltending coach. Both Halak and Greiss have been around the block for many NHL years. I've got to think that coaching a goalie at the NHL level is pretty much solely film analysis and helping them get back to what made the goalie NHL caliber to begin with after a certain number of years in the NHL, and then it comes down to executing the adjustments.
On this site we all bemoaned Capuano's shift a few years ago from a forechecking, pressing the opposition's defense to a more structured defensive posture (or as we used to define here, a BORING approach). When Weight took over and flipped that around we all cheered about the attractiveness of the new system and the last 40 games were great last year.
In the last 40 games last season we gave up more than 3 goals in regulation only ELEVEN times, out of the 40. Compare that to the AVERAGE GAA this season of 3.5. In only 14 of those 40 games did we give up 33 shots on goal or more. This season we have given up 33 or more shots 17 times in the first 35 games and a lot of games were at 32.
But then you look at the differential between SOG and Shots Against we are 21st in that, but the number is only -53, so that is only 1.5 shots more against than for. Not a huge number.
Most damning is that the teams behind us in that number include Toronto, Anaheim (easily the worst in the league at over -200!!), New Jersey, Nashville, the Rangers, Washington and Minnesota.
If our defense stinks so much, and our 'system' is too aggressive, how do we explain teams with worse stats playing so much better right now? And the top 3 teams on shot differential in the league? Carolina, Pittsburgh and Edmonton! Hardly defensive juggernauts and teams with 'safe' systems!
Now look at the entire 2016-17. Know where we ranked in shot differential?
24th overall! We have IMPROVED from last year in shot differential versus the league overall. And our pace this year is almost EXACTLY the same numbers! Minus 136 for the season, or minus 1.66 per game for the year.
In 2016-17 we gave up 2,616 shots on goal, or 31.90 per game. This year we have given up 1,138 in 35 games, or 32.5 per game, barely a difference!
Is there a difference in shot quality they face? Maybe. But that takes more analysis than I can provide here. Maybe one of the stats gurus here can do that analysis.
Sorry to the apologists for Halak or Greiss right now but the stats, never mind the eye test, show that they are not getting the job done.
So it comes down to one thing only . . . and I doubt it's because the goaltending coach can't read game film.
I would love to know what the turnover differential is this year vs last year. Natural zone coverage when the opponent is forced to go 200ft is good. It's when the team turns over puck that we can't seem to pick up the right guy and that comes down to hockey smarts and experience. Our D is young and while they play decent when it's a controlled environment (players in position), their ability to react and be in the right place after a turnover is horrible and to top it off, our goalies haven't bailed them out. Case and point, if Leddy turns the puck over, he appears more times then not to be able to get back in the play. Mayfield and Pelech......not sure how many times I have seen the number 42 on the back of the jersey floating back in towards his goal after they score. I should see the Isles crest not his numbers. How many teams that are making a serious run have 3 rookies on the point? It's not secret, in general, defenseman take longer to mature and develop. Another issue....the PK. They run around chasing the puck like Novice players. From half boards to the point, it's 25 ft...it takes a puck a sec or less to cover that distance....yet we chase it like a dog always leaving ourselves tired and out of position.
leeroggy
Registered User
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I've been looking around the net for those stats but the closest I can come is for last year at Sportingcharts.com.
And they do it by player, not team.
Last year's Turnover +/- PER MINUTE (the first column is number of minutes played that season, then the raw +/- and then per minute)
The # in the first column is there ranking in the entire NHL
Of course, you have to consider that defenders, particularly puck carriers will tend to have more turnovers
| 66 | Cal Clutterbuck | NYI | 923 | 14 | 0.91 |
| 77 | Casey Cizikas | NYI | 820 | 12 | 0.88 |
| 94 | Nikolay Kulemin | NYI | 994 | 13 | 0.78 |
| 186 | Shane Prince | NYI | 648 | 4 | 0.37 |
| 264 | Ryan Strome | NYI | 1,007 | 1 | 0.06 |
| 292 | Brock Nelson | NYI | 1,267 | 0 | 0.00 |
| 308 | Alan Quine | NYI | 763 | -1 | -0.08 |
| 354 | Anders Lee | NYI | 1,262 | -4 | -0.19 |
| 363 | Stephen Gionta | NYI | 291 | -1 | -0.21 |
| 388 | Josh Bailey | NYI | 1,506 | -7 | -0.28 |
| 391 | Andrew Ladd | NYI | 1,261 | -6 | -0.29 |
| 407 | Jason Chimera | NYI | 1,071 | -6 | -0.34 |
| 412 | Jean-Francois Berube | NYI | 526 | -3 | -0.34 |
| 478 | Scott Mayfield | NYI | 353 | -3 | -0.51 |
| 484 | Jaroslav Halak | NYI | 1,605 | -14 | -0.52 |
| 514 | Thomas Greiss | NYI | 2,813 | -28 | -0.60 |
| 539 | John Tavares | NYI | 1,572 | -18 | -0.69 |
| 548 | Nick Leddy | NYI | 1,840 | -22 | -0.72 |
| 602 | Adam Pelech | NYI | 740 | -11 | -0.89 |
| 606 | Anthony Beauvillier | NYI | 859 | -13 | -0.91 |
| 625 | Dennis Seidenberg | NYI | 1,418 | -23 | -0.97 |
| 648 | Calvin de Haan | NYI | 1,627 | -29 | -1.07 |
| 674 | Thomas Hickey | NYI | 1,331 | -27 | -1.22 |
| 711 | Johnny Boychuk | NYI | 1,368 | -32 | -1.40 |
| 722 | Travis Hamonic | NYI | 1,002 | -25 | -1.50 |
| 761 | Joshua Ho-Sang | NYI | 345 | -11 | -1.91 |
I don't know any other goalie in the league who gives up softer shots than this guy. Relatively easy midrange shots with good sight lines just go over his shoulder. As for fighting his way through screens - forget it.
leeroggy
Registered User
- Jan 3, 2010
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And here is this year's so far from TSN.ca:
NHL Statistics - Stats of the National Hockey League
Sort it by NY Islanders and go to the right on the tabs to see both Turnovers (GV=Given and TA=Takeaways)
There's no Time On Ice equivalent
Clutterbuck is well off last year's pace and Mayfield, Pelech and Boychuck bring up the rear. Not surprising that Boychuck and Mayfield are the two most likely to just shoot the puck off the boards.
One really interesting thing is that Barzal easily leads the team in Takeaways, which is very much a hustle indicator. Our defenders have very few takeaways. DeHaan and Pulock have the most while Mayfield only has one all year!
Another stat that shows how much Clutterbuck is fading as a player is that Anders Lee has blocked more shots this year than Clutter has!
NHL Statistics - Stats of the National Hockey League
Sort it by NY Islanders and go to the right on the tabs to see both Turnovers (GV=Given and TA=Takeaways)
There's no Time On Ice equivalent
Clutterbuck is well off last year's pace and Mayfield, Pelech and Boychuck bring up the rear. Not surprising that Boychuck and Mayfield are the two most likely to just shoot the puck off the boards.
One really interesting thing is that Barzal easily leads the team in Takeaways, which is very much a hustle indicator. Our defenders have very few takeaways. DeHaan and Pulock have the most while Mayfield only has one all year!
Another stat that shows how much Clutterbuck is fading as a player is that Anders Lee has blocked more shots this year than Clutter has!
I'm not going to get crazy about stats that are likely subject to a very low degree of consistency from arena to arena. Ditto with hits. The eye test is better. Clutterbuck has lost a step, but he still finds his man. He's not the problem. When a defender scores an even strength hat-trick against, that means the forwards aren't doing their jobs defensively, the goaltending sucks, or both. And, holy crap, that's what happened.
What the hell was JT doing on the PP faceoffs tangling with Getzlaf as opposed to getting up high?
And what the heck is Halak doing giving up both that goal and the egregious OT winner. I mean, come on...
The defenders weren't great in this game, but addressing NYI's needs with a PK forward and a better goalie could have made it a win. This is on the general manager.
What the hell was JT doing on the PP faceoffs tangling with Getzlaf as opposed to getting up high?
And what the heck is Halak doing giving up both that goal and the egregious OT winner. I mean, come on...
The defenders weren't great in this game, but addressing NYI's needs with a PK forward and a better goalie could have made it a win. This is on the general manager.
With Kuli out the rest of season and CDH likely the same, this team is struggling hard on the PK. While goaltending has been terrible, Snow really needs to bring in some D and bottom 6 help. Bernier, Quine, Prince are not the answer.
The eye test confirms what the stats show. We have 3 players with a + takeaway/giveaway.....3!!!! Lets looks at some of the other teams:
TB - 10 players in the +
Stl - 16
Arz - 8 (worst team in the league)
Buf - 11
Do I need to go on? I have showed the best teams and the worst. This comes down to players being smart and coaches holding these guys accountable. I am going to create a chart with teams total. Most of the goals that scored on us are from PP's or turnovers. Fix those.....you fix the Isles.
As a team....we are -159.
TB -20
Stl +114
Arz -104
Buf -46
Top scoring team in the NHL (TB) take chances and yet they have 139 less turnovers. Look at STL!!!! Sweet God....273 in the diff. In less than 40 games. The worst teams in the NHL have a much better differential. Let me ask this, if we had even a 100 less turnovers, how many goals would that be???
Where does the fault lie? Players because of the high number of turnovers? Coaches, for not putting a system in place to compliment the players? Goalies, for not bailing us out more? Special teams, again falls on coaches philosophy.
TB - 10 players in the +
Stl - 16
Arz - 8 (worst team in the league)
Buf - 11
Do I need to go on? I have showed the best teams and the worst. This comes down to players being smart and coaches holding these guys accountable. I am going to create a chart with teams total. Most of the goals that scored on us are from PP's or turnovers. Fix those.....you fix the Isles.
As a team....we are -159.
TB -20
Stl +114
Arz -104
Buf -46
Top scoring team in the NHL (TB) take chances and yet they have 139 less turnovers. Look at STL!!!! Sweet God....273 in the diff. In less than 40 games. The worst teams in the NHL have a much better differential. Let me ask this, if we had even a 100 less turnovers, how many goals would that be???
Where does the fault lie? Players because of the high number of turnovers? Coaches, for not putting a system in place to compliment the players? Goalies, for not bailing us out more? Special teams, again falls on coaches philosophy.
This team is broken and needs to be fixed and I'm not sure a trade fixes our problem. I blame Weight and the staff and they should feel blessed there is enough talent on this team to bail Weight out. If Weight was coaching a less talented team.....well.....he wouldn't be coaching.
KnishOfTheCrease
Chez Pierre Enthusiast
First thing...Stop rotating the goalies . Pick one and play him. Yeah, I’d obviously prefer Halak but if it’s Greiss, fine. Just play one and let them build momentum.
There is also something to be said about the system. I focus on 2 teams..the Isles and the VGK. The discipline in all 3 zones by VGK is what lead to their success on the backend. Their goalies were plug and play for 2 months for Christ’s sake. They eliminate the high % scoring chances because the forwards come back and help. They suffocate the opponent on the backcheck. Sure, they’ve had a few sloppy games but for the most part they outwork teams in their own end. When was the last time the Islanders outworked a team consistently? They have Deryk Engelland in the Top 4!
There is also something to be said about the system. I focus on 2 teams..the Isles and the VGK. The discipline in all 3 zones by VGK is what lead to their success on the backend. Their goalies were plug and play for 2 months for Christ’s sake. They eliminate the high % scoring chances because the forwards come back and help. They suffocate the opponent on the backcheck. Sure, they’ve had a few sloppy games but for the most part they outwork teams in their own end. When was the last time the Islanders outworked a team consistently? They have Deryk Engelland in the Top 4!
Watch more west coast games. Ryan Miller has been almost as bad this season.
you contradict your first paragraph with your second. You say the first thing we should do is stop rotating goalies, yet you make the argument about Vegas and the fact they had to rotate back ups like crazy. I don't think this is all on the goalies and your reasoning for Vegas being successful has tons of merit. That is my point, each coach has a "system" and what makes them successful or not, is if the team and the players can adhere to it. With the Isles, Weight doesn't have a system. It's a push, push, push approach and if that is going to be the system moving forward, we need 6 Shea Weber's and a Carey Price on the back end and maybe then, we can keep the goals against to roughly 3 a game.
KnishOfTheCrease
Chez Pierre Enthusiast
Yeah, I kind of contradicted myself, but Vegas’ goalies were playing a few games at a time before they were getting hurt. Subban wash shaky his first start and so were Dansk and Lagace. However, they went on to play a handful of games at a time and got better each game. They weren’t rotating every 2nd game. Dansk and Lagace were also starting down in Chicago so they were getting the game momentum build up. Plus, Dansk and Lagace werent lighting it up stat wise. So it goes back to the system. I apologize I’m just talking I’m circles.
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You might as well flip a coin. Halak has always been mentally weak and I think Greiss is right there with him now. Greiss has to be bummed out about his embarrassing goals against average and its only getting worse with him giving up four or five goals midway through second periods. I still think Greiss is making better saves and giving up more difficult goals, but I absolutely don't trust him now. Gibson isn't exactly having a great year, but I'd be willing to look at him for a few games.
