Speculation: GM Lou Lamoriello to take lesser role with team?

[Kiwi]

Mark Hunter should get the job & if not him, Please look outside the organization for someone who is qualified for the job. Futa, Ron Francis or even the guy out in Nashville would be my top picks

Did Dubas vanish did He?

Why are we going outside of the organisation looking for our next GM when you've got two excellent options in house?

 

[ErnieLeafs]

Did Dubas vanish did He?

Why are we going outside of the organisation looking for our next GM when you've got two excellent options in house?

"Excellent options" ?

Find that out through a thorough interview/vetting process.

 

[Kiwi]

"Excellent options" ?

Find that out through a thorough interview/vetting process.

There both already in house, have been working with our other staff and since their both still employed by us someone thinks they both bring value

Those two should be at the top of any GM short list

 

[Daisy Jane]

There both already in house, have been working with our other staff and since their both still employed by us someone thinks they both bring value

Those two should be at the top of any GM short list

or you can interview

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think i should stress - something.

If Dubas is the perfect wonderful choice - as I trust Shanahan, then that's good enough for me. I've stated my reservations, however, even with the slight missteps Shanahan has made, i have confidence Dubas would be the right candidate.


All I want however, is that Dubas and Hunter (if Hunter is the right choice) not to be handed anything. This team has done so well to eliminate a lot of "well you're a Leaf, you just move right on in and do whatever-ness." with everything. Players who have a full fledged future here has to go through their paces before they get a legitimate chance (and then they go back down, and have to work some more).

So why are we just happy about handing the reins over to Dubas? Or Hunter? Yes. they are internal, and they've been in lock-step with the Plan for as long as there has been one. However, Shanahan seems to be the type of person who wants a lot of different ideologies in the room so we don't fall into the trap of yesteryear when someone comes up with a dumbo idea and everyone goes YA!"

Shanahan going through the interview process, in my mind is a good thing because, Dubas would have to show why he felt he was the best candidate, over a lot of people who could have equal interesting ideas, part of winning programmes (with the draft, development, creative) idea, and experience and a lot of NHL ears. As I feel that the GM does have full reign to do whatever he wants (as long as it's lockstep with what the "Plan" is - i don't think it's going to be "hire Chiarelli." because he got fired this off-season or something.

But hearing what BriseBois, or Fenton, or Futa, has to say and what they could bring to the table for the Leafs isn't an insult to Dubas. Nor, if Shanahan hired him the same thing. And if they bring something better for the Leafs, isn't it to our advantage to bring that into our organization?

Honestly, we've finally become respectable, stable, and getting people to want to come here, and we've seen how fragile that can be to falling apart. I don't think it's too much to ask, that we do everything to continue that stability by hiring the right person, not being in love with the options that are here.

 

[francis246]

Did Dubas vanish did He?

Why are we going outside of the organisation looking for our next GM when you've got two excellent options in house?

Because I don't believe Dubas is the right guy for the job. And you don't NEED to hire internally. Yzerman seems to be doing great in Tampa, Rutherford has won the cup back to back.

Additionally, I'm not sure Dubas is really respected out there in the NHL as a legitimate GM. What exactly has he proved? He hasn't won anything. It's literally the shinny new toy effect. No one can pin point what Dubas has done to really prove he deserves the job or even has the experience.

If we are hiring internally, Mark Hunter should be the guy. He is well respected league wide, he's played in the league, has a good understanding of prospects and players.

 

[Nithoniniel]

But hearing what BriseBois, or Fenton, or Futa, has to say and what they could bring to the table for the Leafs isn't an insult to Dubas. Nor, if Shanahan hired him the same thing. And if they bring something better for the Leafs, isn't it to our advantage to bring that into our organization?

Yeah, I agree. More options and more information is never a bad thing.

 

[White Shadow]

Shanahan had an exhaustive search to fill the last vacant GM position. He even hired his coach before he did his GM. Why do people think the man who brought us Hunter, Dubas, Babcock, Pridham and Lou will all of a sudden crap the bed?

 

[Daisy Jane]

Because I don't believe Dubas is the right guy for the job. And you don't NEED to hire internally. Yzerman seems to be doing great in Tampa, Rutherford has won the cup back to back.

Additionally, I'm not sure Dubas is really respected out there in the NHL as a legitimate GM. What exactly has he proved? He hasn't won anything. It's literally the shinny new toy effect. No one can pin point what Dubas has done to really prove he deserves the job or even has the experience.

If we are hiring internally, Mark Hunter should be the guy. He is well respected league wide, he's played in the league, has a good understanding of prospects and players.

Honestly, I'd rather Hunter doing what he's doing and going to really remote areas and finding us waves after waves of awesome people either that - or kidnapping Tampa's drafting wizard (or NSH's ) and then that's fine.

and I feel that's something else what we're ignoring. If we hire externally, generally speaking they tend to bring people with them. Yzerman brought the drafting guy and Tampa's been amazing at finding depth people.

I say this with all respect - I have zero zero idea what any AGM does. like if you were to ask me, I'd say well they run the marlies, manage the cap, do negotiations etc, whatever. That's what Nonis did, and I know because they did the break down what BriseBois + Veerbeek does, and what Futa/Fenton does.

but then you have hotpaws (htpwn? one of them) saying that means bumpkis because Lou is the one providing the players etc so now i'm like okay what does Dubas do? I know he helps with scouting (but that's Hunter's domain), and Pridham is the one who finalizes the cap situation/contract negotiations. is it just the analytics? and I don't wanna get into the whole thing, but if that's why people want him so badly, please go take a very long, hard look at Florida (before they put Talon back in charge) and an equally long hard look at Arizona. To me that's very worrying.

I don't want to dismiss the importance of analytics (i'm glad we have our compound) but i feel a lot of people (fans + media) put so much importance into it and I don't think the NHL does (to the point that the collective "we" do). and I don't think that's beause they are behind and slow, I feel it's because it's hockey. it's not baseball.

I personally would feel comfortable if we had someone outside, because i think the think tank we've built would continue to grow. and if that means Dubas wants to be GM somewhere else (and probably take Keefe with him) that's okay and i wish him the success in the world. but at the end of the day the thing that's important to me is that the leafs are better then we were yesterday. I'm not sure if Dubas is that guy.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Honestly, I'd rather Hunter doing what he's doing and going to really remote areas and finding us waves after waves of awesome people either that - or kidnapping Tampa's drafting wizard (or NSH's ) and then that's fine.

and I feel that's something else what we're ignoring. If we hire externally, generally speaking they tend to bring people with them. Yzerman brought the drafting guy and Tampa's been amazing at finding depth people.

I say this with all respect - I have zero zero idea what any AGM does. like if you were to ask me, I'd say well they run the marlies, manage the cap, do negotiations etc, whatever. That's what Nonis did, and I know because they did the break down what BriseBois + Veerbeek does, and what Futa/Fenton does.

but then you have hotpaws (htpwn? one of them) saying that means bumpkis because Lou is the one providing the players etc so now i'm like okay what does Dubas do? I know he helps with scouting (but that's Hunter's domain), and Pridham is the one who finalizes the cap situation/contract negotiations. is it just the analytics? and I don't wanna get into the whole thing, but if that's why people want him so badly, please go take a very long, hard look at Florida (before they put Talon back in charge) and an equally long hard look at Arizona. To me that's very worrying.

I don't want to dismiss the importance of analytics (i'm glad we have our compound) but i feel a lot of people (fans + media) put so much importance into it and I don't think the NHL does (to the point that the collective "we" do). and I don't think that's beause they are behind and slow, I feel it's because it's hockey. it's not baseball.

I personally would feel comfortable if we had someone outside, because i think the think tank we've built would continue to grow. and if that means Dubas wants to be GM somewhere else (and probably take Keefe with him) that's okay and i wish him the success in the world. but at the end of the day the thing that's important to me is that the leafs are better then we were yesterday. I'm not sure if Dubas is that guy.

I'm all for having the best candidate become the next GM once Lou is ready to no longer want the job. However hypothetically let's say Dallas fires Jim Nill and will need a new GM. They call Shanahan asking for permission to speak with Dubas, does he say no or grant the permission? If he says no everyone will assume he's next in line after Lou, however if he says yes people will say does Dubas want to leave and do the Leafs even want him as their next GM?

Now maybe this has to do with how Shanahan keeps things from the media, however so far I have not heard Dubas name mentioned for the Hurricanes GM opening.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

I like hunter where he is. He has a special gift of judging potential. He was amazing in London, and so far, his Leaf picks are looking pretty solid.

 

[Menzinger]

One was an NHL known person the other not so much.

Hence why Hunter is the far better choice and he is leaving if Dubas gets the job and Hunter has been fantastic

Burke and Nonis were vet GMs and we saw how that turned out. At the time of signing his contract with Leafs Burke was the most sought after hockey executive on the planet.

And that’s not to say that experience doesn’t matter, but it’s not enough for me to say GM Candidate X is a better than Candidate Y simply because there’s a gap in that regard

 

[Menzinger]

Regardless of who the choice is my preference is for a “rookie” for the Leafs job (Ie Dubas, hunter or another AGM)Imo the constant recycling of the same old bodies who flame out on one team, get hired by another is what keeps things stagnant and why hockey form a sports management POV is in the dark ages compared to other pro sports leagues.

I want the Leafs to be ahead of the curve, not playing catch-up.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Burke and Nonis were vet GMs and we saw how that turned out. At the time of signing his contract with Leafs Burke was the most sought after hockey executive on the planet.

And that’s not to say that experience doesn’t matter, but it’s not enough for me to say GM Candidate X is a better than Candidate Y simply because there’s a gap in that regard

Look at Steve Yzerman's experience working in the Red Wings management before he became the Lightning GM. Why couldn't Kyle Dubas have the same success if he's the next Leafs GM? I use Yzerman as an example because he didn't have any GM experience at the time he was hired.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Burke and Nonis were vet GMs and we saw how that turned out. At the time of signing his contract with Leafs Burke was the most sought after hockey executive on the planet.

And that’s not to say that experience doesn’t matter, but it’s not enough for me to say GM Candidate X is a better than Candidate Y simply because there’s a gap in that regard

using Burke as an example is dumb in my opinion.
Burke simply isn't a good GM and anyone following his career would see that.

it's not about just veteran experience its a lot of things.

 

[LeafsNation75]

using Burke as an example is dumb in my opinion.
Burke simply isn't a good GM and anyone following his career would see that.

it's not about just veteran experience its a lot of things.

I'm not defending Burke by any means when I say this, however considering he was replacing JFJ you can see why MLSE wanted to give him the job.

 

[Menzinger]

using Burke as an example is dumb in my opinion.
Burke simply isn't a good GM and anyone following his career would see that.

it's not about just veteran experience its a lot of things.

At the time of his signing he had just won a cup and built the foundations of the Nucks. He was a very attractive candidate for the Leafs to sign. Yes in Toronto he was horrible, but that wasn’t his reputation in 2008.

A more recent example is Chia - tons of experience, lousy GM.

That’s the point I’m getting at, experience shouldn’t be enough to justify a decision

 

[Jozay]

Because I don't believe Dubas is the right guy for the job. And you don't NEED to hire internally. Yzerman seems to be doing great in Tampa, Rutherford has won the cup back to back.

Additionally, I'm not sure Dubas is really respected out there in the NHL as a legitimate GM. What exactly has he proved? He hasn't won anything. It's literally the shinny new toy effect. No one can pin point what Dubas has done to really prove he deserves the job or even has the experience.

If we are hiring internally, Mark Hunter should be the guy. He is well respected league wide, he's played in the league, has a good understanding of prospects and players.

Baby boomer tier post.

I hope Shanahan doesnt think like this.

 

[LeafsNation75]

At the time of his signing he had just won a cup and built the foundations of the Nucks. He was a very attractive candidate for the Leafs to sign. Yes in Toronto he was horrible, but that wasn’t his reputation in 2008.

A more recent example is Chia - tons of experience, lousy GM.

That’s the point I’m getting at, experience shouldn’t be enough to justify a decision

I know I'm not crazy when I say this because I remember Chiarelli saying the main reason he accepted the Oilers GM position was due to them winning the lottery for Connor McDavid and without him he might have said no. He was not officially hired until after they won the draft lottery in 2015.

 

[Daisy Jane]

At the time of his signing he had just won a cup and built the foundations of the Nucks. He was a very attractive candidate for the Leafs to sign. Yes in Toronto he was horrible, but that wasn’t his reputation in 2008.

A more recent example is Chia - tons of experience, lousy GM.

That’s the point I’m getting at, experience shouldn’t be enough to justify a decision

Again. if anyone actually looked at Burke's track record, they would have seen he was not a good GM. Same with Chiarelli. Burke didn't do squat really in vancouver, a lot of the success in Vancouver actually went to Nonis and a lot his drafting and trade decisions help make the Vancouver Canucks what they were (minus of course the Sedin drafting which Burke took advantage of a very very weak draft).

he went to Anaheim, took a tonne of credit for what Bryan Murray had built and got Pronger (because his wife wanted out of Edmonton), and took advantage of the fact the Neidermayer brothers wanted to play together. all the heavy lifting- not done by him. (even if you look back when he ran Hartford, what did he do?).

So sure. he was "popular" and his big bombastic mouth sure looked attractive to an organization who really wanted executives to do nothing but make the team generate them money. Success on his end, . But he was not a good GM.

Chiarelli same thing. Most people tend to forget that the draft that made Boston what Boston wasn't even run by Chia, it was run by Jeff Gorton, as Chia due to the very public falling out couldn't even really talk shop with Boston until after July First, (he was still with Ottawa at the time). All Chia did was make take advantage of other stupid dumbos. (Hi Burke), and then run that team into the ground cap wise, and making stupid trades. (I'm not gonna deny he has an eye for talent, he does, being part of Ottawa's structure, and Boston always did draft okay) but as a GM he sucks. Katz was a major dumbo for hiring him and again, if you look at his actual history, (and what the team was before him) anyone could see that.


Which is my main point.
I don't want a "vet" GM because "oh you have experience, and so and so does not." (but i might add, when Rutherford was available, no one here wanted him because "OHH MY GOD have ya SEEN Carolina," and Rutherford has been knocking it out of the park in Pittsburgh.

I have argued when Dubas got hired, that people shouldn't be shunted aside because they don't have enough experience. I still believe that. as I said my main issue with him is that I didn't like how he got too cute with the 2015 draft. (we could have Dermott AND Larsson vs. Dermott and two players who may not be Leafs when its all said and done, even though they are really good not taking things away from him).

agian for all intents and purposes - our President had zero idea how to run a franchise such as this. (however, considering his role is more business oriented his roles in the NHL head offices (where he was being groomed to maybe take over bigger and better things made him a good one). so I'm not against inexperience.

I'm not even saying I'd be mad if Dubas got hired.

what i'm saying is, we shouldn't just be all "Dubas is the best." because we don't. know. that. All people point to is that he's super smart, he did stuff with the Soo (I don't follow JR hockey at all, so i have no skin in this game, I have to take people's opinions on that matter). What I want is the best. person. And the best way to find that out is for Shanahan to A: put heat under Dubas's butt and have him prove it, how?that's by having a job interview.

because if I were Dubas, and I know I was going up against BriseBois/Verbeek (two people who have deftly help Yzerman run Tampa, hell. if Tampa wins a cup, and Yzerman's like okay new challenge, you could be up against Yzerman), or Fenton (who has been by Poile's side for a huge amount of time, so it would be interesting to see his ideas to continue to make the Marlies + Leafs super amazing juggernauts), or Futa who went through a slow period, 2 cups, then back to a slow period, and how he would combine what he knows about what makes LA work and how that combines with Toronto's obvious speed) - i'd make sure that my presentation wasn't. "I run the analytics department, and I was here, so I should get it."*


there is nothing wrong with wanting Shanahan to do everything in his power to get us the best GM.
I don't think that's Dubas. (and if Shanahan thinks so I'll accept it and I hope that's the right decision), but if he doesn't go through an entire interview process, and ascertain that indeed Dubas is the best logical choice, not because he's internal, not because he's young not because of analytics, but because he can do the job well, then then this would be the very first time in a very long time I'll be pissed off at Shanahan because I don't think that is the right decision.



*I don't want to make it out that's all that Dubas does but just reading a lot of comments here I feel that's why a lot of people want him to be in charge and that really scares me.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Which is my main point.
I don't want a "vet" GM because "oh you have experience, and so and so does not." (but i might add, when Rutherford was available, no one here wanted him because "OHH MY GOD have ya SEEN Carolina," and Rutherford has been knocking it out of the park in Pittsburgh.

The only person who wanted Rutherford was Bill Watters because he always talked about how great he was.

 

[Kiwi]

or you can interview

Because I don't believe Dubas is the right guy for the job. And you don't NEED to hire internally. Yzerman seems to be doing great in Tampa, Rutherford has won the cup back to back.

Additionally, I'm not sure Dubas is really respected out there in the NHL as a legitimate GM. What exactly has he proved? He hasn't won anything. It's literally the shinny new toy effect. No one can pin point what Dubas has done to really prove he deserves the job or even has the experience.

If we are hiring internally, Mark Hunter should be the guy. He is well respected league wide, he's played in the league, has a good understanding of prospects and players.

I'm less concerned about how the old boys network sees Dumas and more interested in how he'd do the job, same goes for Hunter

There learning under the best right now and you can make the whole "won nothing" argument about anybody that's not been an NHL GM pretty much

The get the best person argument sounds fine until you realise your potentially bringing someone in from outside and you don't know how there going to fit in until you've actually hired them, if you like your guys in house you keep stability and continue on the same general course

We're a very professional well run organization, if you don't promote from within people will walk, there not going to get passed over and sit on there hands thanking you for it

 

[Daisy Jane]

Regardless of who the choice is my preference is for a “rookie” for the Leafs job (Ie Dubas, hunter or another AGM)Imo the constant recycling of the same old bodies who flame out on one team, get hired by another is what keeps things stagnant and why hockey form a sports management POV is in the dark ages compared to other pro sports leagues.

I want the Leafs to be ahead of the curve, not playing catch-up.

and what if hiring someone and putting their smarts with our money makes them ahead of the curve?
quite frankly, we are not in a position to risk playing chicken just so we can be all "less dark ages."

I don't really give a fig newton what other sports leagues does, i care about this franchise, and their stability, and respectability which they've finally gotten back.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I'm less concerned about how the old boys network sees Dumas and more interested in how he'd do the job, same goes for Hunter

There learning under the best right now and you can make the whole "won nothing" argument about anybody that's not been an NHL GM pretty much

The get the best person argument sounds fine until you realise your potentially bringing someone in from outside and you don't know how there going to fit in until you've actually hired them, if you like your guys in house you keep stability and continue on the same general course

We're a very professional well run organization, if you don't promote from within people will walk, there not going to get passed over and sit on there hands thanking you for it

has Dubas won anything period?

and quite frankly if Dubas wants to walk away, see ya. I'd rather we have the best person for our organization. all Shanahan has done has hire people to make them uncomfortable so they aren't just settling to making the easy right decisions.

 

[Menzinger]

and what if hiring someone and putting their smarts with our money makes them ahead of the curve?
quite frankly, we are not in a position to risk playing chicken just so we can be all "less dark ages."

I don't really give a fig newton what other sports leagues does, i care about this franchise, and their stability, and respectability which they've finally gotten back.

I agree that ultimately the Leafs have an opportunity to get the best person and that combined worth MLSE’s resources and wealth is a potentially winning formula.

But I’m sick of watching hockey lag behind on everything - first it was stats analysis, then health sciences. It would be nice if my favourite team started to be the one that others seek to emulate rather then playing catch-up. The Leafs are finally starting to push the boundaries a bit here, and I’d like somebody who shares that vision for the team rather than just trying to keep things “business as usual”