Speculation: GM Lou Lamoriello to take lesser role with team?

[Cor]

You know who would have been an awesome hire way back when? Poile. The dude chose Nashville even after we offered him the job though

It's crazy that Poile was about to accept the Leafs job too.

Poile interviewed with Dryden for 12 hours, then went for dinner with Tanenbaum. Poile said Tanenbaum had other business to attend too on the Sunday, so asked if they could take it up again the Monday, and then Poile went home to Washington the Sunday and then got the offer from the Predators, and decided to build a team from scratch like his father did.

Just crazy to imagine what would have happened. Likely no Pat Quinn in Toronto, which is crazy to think about.

 

[WTFMAN99]

It's crazy that Poile was about to accept the Leafs job too.

Poile interviewed with Dryden for 12 hours, then went for dinner with Tanenbaum. Poile said Tanenbaum had other business to attend too on the Sunday, so asked if they could take it up again the Monday, and then Poile went home to Washington the Sunday and then got the offer from the Predators, and decided to build a team from scratch like his father did.

Just crazy to imagine what would have happened. Likely no Pat Quinn in Toronto, which is crazy to think about.

There is likely an alternate universe out there where Poile takes the job but we're not living in it...or at least this version of ourselves....this post became very Matrixy...

 

[Cor]

Its usually done as a trade for info to an extent. It is not like asking for a favor.

I'm sure its done. The media, management and agents all need each other.

He made it sound like it was just guys asking him. It's obviously done. Just like how GM's purposely leak trade talks, agents leak contract numbers.

Heck, both Friedman and McKenzie, have both said they don't even try and get information directly out of Toronto anymore, but it's through different organizations where they get their info.

 

[93LEAFS]

There is likely an alternate universe out there where Poile takes the job but we're not living in it...or at least this version of ourselves....this post became very Matrixy...

There are way too many Leaf related vortex's to go down. My favorite is, what would have happened if Ballard took Pocklington up on his offer to switch teams for a certain price.

He made it sound like it was just guys asking him. It's obviously done. Just like how GM's purposely leak trade talks, agents leak contract numbers.

Heck, both Friedman and McKenzie, have both said they don't even try and get information directly out of Toronto anymore, but it's through different organizations where they get their info.

They both tend to get half a scoop on certain things.

I think it was the Freddy Andersen situation, where one was given that trade, and the other was given the terms of the extension.

A bunch of stuff gets out on personnel type stuff because scouts talk at the rinks. But, any high-level decision making on trades is kept under wraps.

 

[Cor]

There is likely an alternate universe out there where Poile takes the job but we're not living in it...or at least this version of ourselves....this post became very Matrixy...

There's also a universe where the Leafs acquired Eric Lindros and Rob Blake at the 2001 Trade Deadline

 

[Cor]

There are way too many Leaf related vortex's to go down. My favorite is, what would have happened if Ballard took Pocklington up on his offer to switch teams for a certain price.

Another crazy one....goodness

 

[93LEAFS]

There's also a universe where the Leafs acquired Eric Lindros and Rob Blake at the 2001 Trade Deadline

I still remember a local store having both those jerseys in the window down Avenue road ready to go.

 

[Cor]

I still remember a local store having both those jerseys in the window down Avenue road ready to go.

Gretzky
Sundin
Gilmour
Muller

As the 4 centers in the 96-97 season would have been interesting as well. Instead Gretzky went to NYR, and Gilmour and Muller were dealt.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It's crazy that Poile was about to accept the Leafs job too.

Poile interviewed with Dryden for 12 hours, then went for dinner with Tanenbaum. Poile said Tanenbaum had other business to attend too on the Sunday, so asked if they could take it up again the Monday, and then Poile went home to Washington the Sunday and then got the offer from the Predators, and decided to build a team from scratch like his father did.

Just crazy to imagine what would have happened. Likely no Pat Quinn in Toronto, which is crazy to think about.

I wonder if that means Curtis Joseph never signing in Toronto?

 

[Cor]

I wonder if that means Curtis Joseph never signing in Toronto?

And technically Belfour.

In fact, that entire 1999-2004 era changes drastically.

 

[93LEAFS]

And technically Belfour.

In fact, that entire 1999-2004 era changes drastically.

This is just too strange. We never get Cujo, we potentially never trade Potvin, and then we never get Berard.....

 

[LeafsNation75]

This is just too strange. We never get Cujo, we potentially never trade Potvin, and then we never get Berard.....

Berard never than suffers that horrible eye injury against Ottawa because of Marian Hossa.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Gretzky
Sundin
Gilmour
Muller

As the 4 centers in the 96-97 season would have been interesting as well. Instead Gretzky went to NYR, and Gilmour and Muller were dealt.

Still crazy to me that they didn't sign Gretzky because he would just cut into profits.

 

[Cor]

This is just too strange. We never get Cujo, we potentially never trade Potvin, and then we never get Berard.....

There are a lot of ways Cujo never becomes a Leaf and Potvin stays.

Heck, the way CuJo became a Leaf is pretty wild. Most expected him to end up a Philadelphia Flyer, Ken Dryden went to the ice cream shop to get ice cream since it was a hot day. Don Meehan, Cujo's agent was also there and they got to talking. Meehan pitched Dryden on signing Joseph then and there, despite the Leafs making it known they didn't want to add payroll and sign any big free agents.

One thing led to another, and the Leafs signed Curtis Joseph and Steve Stavro began investing in the team again.

 

[LeafsNation75]

There are a lot of ways Cujo never becomes a Leaf and Potvin stays.

Heck, the way CuJo became a Leaf is pretty wild. Most expected him to end up a Philadelphia Flyer, Ken Dryden went to the ice cream shop to get ice cream since it was a hot day. Don Meehan, Cujo's agent was also there and they got to talking. Meehan pitched Dryden on signing Joseph then and there, despite the Leafs making it known they didn't want to add payroll and sign any big free agents.

One thing led to another, and the Leafs signed Curtis Joseph and Steve Stavro began investing in the team again.

I always remember hearing how it was assumed Joseph would sign with the Flyers and he thought himself that was going to happen. Instead they sign John Vanbiesbrouck. I also don't remember hearing how Dryden and Meehan first got the idea for Joseph to sign in Toronto, so that's a interesting story.

What's even funnier is that in the first round of the 1999 playoffs the Leafs played the Flyers and won the series in 6 games.

 

[MattySnipes]

There are a lot of ways Cujo never becomes a Leaf and Potvin stays.

Heck, the way CuJo became a Leaf is pretty wild. Most expected him to end up a Philadelphia Flyer, Ken Dryden went to the ice cream shop to get ice cream since it was a hot day. Don Meehan, Cujo's agent was also there and they got to talking. Meehan pitched Dryden on signing Joseph then and there, despite the Leafs making it known they didn't want to add payroll and sign any big free agents.

One thing led to another, and the Leafs signed Curtis Joseph and Steve Stavro began investing in the team again.

Cool story..never knew that.

 

[SprDaVE]

Morrison had notable gaffs. Hunter hit on both high-picks he's had. Morrison hit on 2 of 3, missing on Schenn, doing well on Rielly and Kadri. I don't think Hunter is a drafting god. I believe he should be capable of beating league average though with his scouting skill, staff and resources. Morrison wasn't doing this. He botched every pick he oversaw in the 20's range as scouting director. Here are his picks in the 20-50 range over his lifespan with the Leafs. Gauthier, Matt Finn, Biggs, Percy, Brad Ross, and Kenny Ryan.

I don't want to diminish Dubas's accomplishments, but as for effect on the NHL team, there really isn't much that can be directly pointed to. Hunter, at least we have something that is quite clear, his draft record over 3 years. Neither are perfect candidates. I personally side with Hunter, as I respect what he has done managing out scouting staff, and completely rebuilding it. He has almost completely turned over the scouting staff he inherited, and I think he is doing a good job at that, luring in highly respected people like Tim Speltz and Ari Vuori.

Its respectable what Dubas has done with the Marlies and SSM. But, Hunter turned around a team that was an also ran prior to him, into the premier franchise of the CHL. Now, he had more resources than most, due to the opening of the JLC, but he was heavily involved in that project.

Morrison was definitely hit or miss. He found some value but really wish we would have moved on sooner from him, which is why I'm so glad that we finally got Hunter to take over with his resume, reputation and pedigree. So far, I've been a little disappointed with the picks made after the obvious ones. I guess as long as he doesn't miss on the top 60 picks too often, it could be worst? Meh...

Dubas did the same thing with the SSM, by the way. Ask any SSM fan that was around at the time. The only difference is that he did with a fraction of the budget, at least from what I've read. Had he still been there to this day, he'd be seen as a full flight NHL GM out of the gate and I'm very confident in saying that. SSM is a powerhouse still to this day and a lot of his moves at the time to setup everything can be attributed to that, same for London with Hunter (who still has a hand in things).

At the end of the day, I'd be fine with either one of Dubas or Hunter if one leaves after whoever gets promoted because they've been here since the start of this. I have my preference and things seem to align with my preference. But Hunter is definitely replaceable, at least just as much as Dubas is. There are so many talented scouts and hockey minds out there.

I also read a little while ago that the Leafs were looking at Kyle Raftis from the SSM with a Leafs job. Probably another move to keep an eye on. He'd be a good replacement to take over Dubas current role in the event that he does get promoted.

EDIT:

Found a good snippet of an article written in 2011 when Dubas was hired:

Lou Lukenda, the Greyhounds' majority shareholder and president, said the original plan called for the team to hire a veteran hockey man until Dubas walked in for his interview armed with a 95-page blueprint on the future of the team.

"He came well prepared and has some excellent ideas," Lukenda said. "We thought his experience as an agent could help us and we liked the idea that he wanted a team that would be good every year, as opposed to the idea of building a team to try and go all the way for one year, only to pay the consequences for the next three or four."

Lukenda said four other quality candidates interviewed, but the board was unanimous in wanting Dubas.

Dubas was thrown into the deep end, starting the job just three weeks before the OHL priority selection draft. The team had no coach, no players officially committed to returning for the 2011-12 season and a leading scorer asking for a trade. By the time his wheeling and dealing was done, the Greyhounds had 12 new players on a 25-man roster.

"We're not going to beat those teams on revenues and budgets, so we need to beat them on the culture of our team," Dubas said. "When a player comes to our team, he needs to know we're going to get the most out of him in the classroom, in the community and on the ice."

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are a lot of ways Cujo never becomes a Leaf and Potvin stays.

Heck, the way CuJo became a Leaf is pretty wild. Most expected him to end up a Philadelphia Flyer, Ken Dryden went to the ice cream shop to get ice cream since it was a hot day. Don Meehan, Cujo's agent was also there and they got to talking. Meehan pitched Dryden on signing Joseph then and there, despite the Leafs making it known they didn't want to add payroll and sign any big free agents.

One thing led to another, and the Leafs signed Curtis Joseph and Steve Stavro began investing in the team again.

That is indeed a cool story, I'd never heard that.

At the end of the day, I'd be fine with either one of Dubas or Hunter if one leaves after whoever gets promoted because they've been here since the start of this. I have my preference and things seem to align with my preference. But Hunter is definitely replaceable, at least just as much as Dubas is. There are so many talented scouts and hockey minds out there.

Yeah I hate to think of one of them leaving but I'll just try to remember that if it happens, it's not the end of the world.

This has been an interesting discussion with good points made on both sides. My wish is that Dubas is the next GM and Hunter stays doing what he does best, we'll see what happens.

 

[93LEAFS]

Morrison was definitely hit or miss. He found some value but really wish we would have moved on sooner from him, which is why I'm so glad that we finally got Hunter to take over with his resume, reputation and pedigree. So far, I've been a little disappointed with the picks made after the obvious ones. I guess as long as he doesn't miss on the top 60 picks too often, it could be worst? Meh...

Dubas did the same thing with the SSM, by the way. Ask any SSM fan that was around at the time. The only difference is that he did with a fraction of the budget, at least from what I've read. Had he still been there to this day, he'd be seen as a full flight NHL GM out of the gate and I'm very confident in saying that. SSM is a powerhouse still to this day and a lot of his moves at the time to setup everything can be attributed to that, same for London with Hunter (who still has a hand in things).

At the end of the day, I'd be fine with either one of Dubas or Hunter if one leaves after whoever gets promoted because they've been here since the start of this. I have my preference and things seem to align with my preference. But Hunter is definitely replaceable, at least just as much as Dubas is. There are so many talented scouts and hockey minds out there.

I also read a little while ago that the Leafs were looking at Kyle Raftis from the SSM with a Leafs job. Probably another move to keep an eye on. He'd be a good replacement to take over Dubas current role in the event that he does get promoted.

EDIT:
Found a good snippet of an article written in 2011 when Dubas was hired:

No one goes from CHL gm to NHL gm, regardless of what they do at that level. I can't even think of a recent example of that happening.

London has been much longer lasting with Hunter at the helm. London was not in great shape when he and Dale bought them. A key part of the revitalization was the move to the JLC, but they turned them from a team that won 25 games into a team that wins 45 practically every year and a program every kid wants to be a part of due to their development success and facilities. I also wouldn't call it that comparable. SSM still hasn't made it to the OHL finals since they hired Dubas. Prior to Dubas SSM had been to the conference finals 3 years prior under Craig Hartsburg. Knights made the finals in 1998-99, but what Hunter built was a longterm success.

SSM is having a great year, but its hard to attribute too much of that to Dubas, most of the current team was put in place after he moved on. He may have helped lay the framework, but it'd be like giving Tallon most the credit for the Blackhawks success under Bowman.

But, I don't think Hunter is that replaceable, finding long-term respected scouts willing to leave their organization is always a challenge. Its why a bunch of the people Hunter found were CHL guys. The only big name he brought in from another team was Vuori, who they gave a promotion. Good scouts don't tend to make lateral moves because they extend their contract before that becomes a possibility. I think it would be much easier to rebuild the analytics department.

I think you are picking way too much at late picks. How often do teams hit on those? You need to hit on one occasionally, and they also take time to develop. The only team that has multiple core players drafted after 60 right since 2010 is Tampa (Palat and Point), but keep in mind, they also botched at least 2 top 10 picks, and didn't get a great return on Drouin (Sergachev is good, but wouldn't you rather Seth Jones). Who would you consider the best drafting team? And what did the manage to pull in over a 3 year window since 2010? Yeah, NJ hit on Bratt, but they also drafted Mikey McLeod over McAvoy, I'll ignore Zacha because that's a previous regime.

 

[93LEAFS]

Since we were awaiting it, here's exactly what Friedman said about Dubas in 31 thoughts, just to clarify on Saturdays discussion.

He (Dundon) has also made it clear he will add to his hockey analytics department. That, and his comments above, had several executives guessing the Hurricanes will take a run at Kyle Dubas if Toronto does not promote him. Only hitch: Dubas and Francis are also tight. Sault Ste. Marie connection.

For most of the season, we’ve assumed Toronto GM Lou Lamoriello is in the final year of his contract, too. It’s difficult to determine the exact wording, but that is not the case. While the team announced he had a three-year term as manager when he was hired, there are two more years in an unspecified role. What we don’t know (and don’t expect the Maple Leafs to reveal) is how it works, but this adds another wrinkle to the team’s front-office future.

Chris Johnston reported that there was a meeting last summer featuring discussion of a succession plan, which may have been triggered by Colorado’s pursuit of Kyle Dubas. I think it’s still a moving target. It’s going to be Brendan Shanahan’s decision, and there’s no indication of what he’s going to do.

So, no one is really reporting Dubas is the pick outside of Mirtle at the moment. So, it seems more Kyprios spit-balling with logical thought behind it. But, it wasn't reported by either of the insiders, and the wording seems pretty clear.

31 Thoughts: What owner Tom Dundon wants in a new Hurricanes GM - Sportsnet.ca

 

[ShaneFalco]

So if the Hurricanes are interested in Dubas, why not let them talk to him?
I mean why block it? If he wants to go elsewhere, so be it. let your employees pursue other options if they desire

 

[IBeL34f]

So if the Hurricanes are interested in Dubas, why not let them talk to him?
I mean why block it? If he wants to go elsewhere, so be it. let your employees pursue other options if they desire

This is a weird situation (not Dubas'/Lamoriello's in particular, but this process in general).

Part of me agrees with you, but part of me also feels like, were I in Dubas' position and a team were granted permission to talk to me, I would look at that and feel that my current team considered me expendable. If your employer says they don't want you to move on to greener pastures, I would hope it's because they have something in store for them where they are already, and not just because they don't want their employees to get poached by other organizations.

I'd like to think that Dubas and Shanahan would potentially discuss these possibilities prior to Shanny giving the other team an answer.

 

[LeafsNation75]

So if the Hurricanes are interested in Dubas, why not let them talk to him?
I mean why block it? If he wants to go elsewhere, so be it. let your employees pursue other options if they desire

If the plan is for Dubas to take over once Lamoriello is ready to step down I think it would be a waste of time.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[ShaneFalco]

If the plan is for Dubas to take over once Lamoriello is ready to step down I think it would be a waste of time.

Let Dubas make that call
I'd never prevent someone from pursuing another opportunity