GDT: Game 27: Avs @ Lightning|12/7, 5:30pm MT|Insert witty comment here

the_fan

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Barrie does need to be traded, but not because he isn't doing well or anything, but because the Avs need a 2nd line winger, someone who can put the puck in the net because they don't have anyone. Kerfoot is a playmaker who doesn't shoot much and he's pretty much the only 2nd line player the Avs have right now.

When Makar makes a jump to NHL, the Avs will have 3 top 4 right handed d-men, so I think Barrie should be traded for a forward.
 

the_fan

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They're not gonna trade Barrie for the sake of trading him. The Avs now have more d-men in the system than forwards and they traded Duchene for a d-man. Unless they draft a top 6 forward in the next draft, they don't really have anyone who can put the puck in the net. It's another must fill position for this team, a 2nd line goal scorer, and Barrie would be the only logical option to trade and get that forward.
 

Goulet17

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If you get a great return for Barrie, trading him is an easy option. Trading him for the sake of trading him is not something Avs should do.

Barrie's play confuses me. Some have suggested that he may still be injured, but I see no noticeable signs that he is playing at less than 100%. I am watching him and it seems like his hockey IQ has severely diminished, both defensively and particularly offensively.

It seems strange. Others have suggested that perhaps Bednar's system is restricting his natural playing style, I don't know. He still is picking up points, but he does not seem to be as impactful as in the past.

I remember the first game against the Rangers and he was terrific, so maybe a lingering injury issue is at play?
 

the_fan

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I would think Barrie could get us more than just a 2nd line Winger.
Barrie should have a value to get a real good top 6 forward in return. 1st or 2nd line winger who can score. All i know is that the Avs second line is pretty much non existent and they do need to upgrade there. Maybe Barrie can get a 1st line winger in return and move Rantanen to the 2nd line, but they do need a goal scorer on that line. I would keep Landeskog MacKinnon Rantanen line together and upgrade that 2nd line whoever they get in a trade.
 

henchman21

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If you're trading Barrie for a forward, you trade for a player who can be your #2C for a long, long time.
 

the_fan

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Looks like the Avs are trying out Jost to be that 2nd line center, but even if Jost turns out to be a good NHL forward, i don't think he's a goal scorer, he and Kerfoot are kind of similar, pass and make plays instead of shoot, and they don't have that natural goal scoring talent. That's what that line is gonna need, a goal scorer, i really don't see Jost and Kerfoot being a long term solution on the 2nd line

Edit: Or make a trade for a goal scorer and have Kerfoot-Jost-??? line, two play makers and a goal scorer, that could work
 
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Foppberg

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Looks like the Avs are trying out Jost to be that 2nd line center, but even if Jost turns out to be a good NHL forward, i don't think he's a goal scorer, he and Kerfoot are kind of similar, pass and make plays instead of shoot, and they don't have that natural goal scoring talent. That's what that line is gonna need, a goal scorer, i really don't see Jost and Kerfoot being a long term solution on the 2nd line

Based on a quarter of their rookie seasons..
 

the_fan

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Based on a quarter of their rookie seasons..
Even early in their rookie seasons you kind of get the idea what kind of players they are. And if someone is a playmaker, they don't magically turn into snipers, and i see both Jost and Kerfoot being playmakers and neither is gonna turn into a sniper in the NHL
 

henchman21

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I'll catch heat for this, but the offense doesn't matter between Kerfoot and Jost with regards to them being a #2C... both will produce just fine for that role. Where I think the issue really lies is the defense. Kerfoot has the effort, but is simply too small to be effective. Jost has a long ways to go with skating and has to bulk up a lot... which bulking up usually tends to hurt skating to a degree. I think both end up at wing long-term. Compher gives me the most hope for the #2C spot (of the NHL forwards), but he needs to be slotted there and allowed the opportunity to seize it. In the system Bowers probably tops the potential list for #2C, then Kamenev and Beaudin behind him. Bowers' questions are more on the offense translating... if he can be a ~50 point guy, I think he is a lock for that role and will be a really good #2C. Kamenev is a bit of a question mark, the talent is there... he just needs to fully learn how to apply it. Beaudin is a bit of a longer term guy (mid season 19-20 is probably when he establishes himself in the NHL), but offense will be the question there.
 
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Cousin Eddie

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I'll catch heat for this, but the offense doesn't matter between Kerfoot and Jost with regards to them being a #2C... both will produce just fine for that role. Where I think the issue really lies is the defense. Kerfoot has the effort, but is simply too small to be effective. Jost has a long ways to go with skating and has to bulk up a lot... which bulking up usually tends to hurt skating to a degree. I think both end up at wing long-term. Compher gives me the most hope for the #2C spot (of the NHL forwards), but he needs to be slotted there and allowed the opportunity to seize it. In the system Bowers probably tops the potential list for #2C, then Kamenev and Beaudin behind him. Bowers' questions are more on the offense translating... if he can be a ~50 point guy, I think he is a lock for that role and will be a really good #2C. Kamenev is a bit of a question mark, the talent is there... he just needs to fully learn how to apply it. Beaudin is a bit of a longer term guy (mid season 19-20 is probably when he establishes himself in the NHL), but offense will be the question there.

I agree with this.
 

Foppberg

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Even early in their rookie seasons you kind of get the idea what kind of players they are. And if someone is a playmaker, they don't magically turn into snipers, and i see both Jost and Kerfoot being playmakers and neither is gonna turn into a sniper in the NHL
Okay yeah I can get that, but to say you can't see them being a 2nd liner is a bit premature.
 

Pokecheque

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Even early in their rookie seasons you kind of get the idea what kind of players they are. And if someone is a playmaker, they don't magically turn into snipers, and i see both Jost and Kerfoot being playmakers and neither is gonna turn into a sniper in the NHL

Not the first time you've jumped to conclusions...



If you don't think Jost can shoot you're kidding yourself. You're judging from a quarter into the season where he's had to deal with injuries that directly impact his ability to move and create space for himself, let alone given him enough time to adjust to the pro game AND the fact that most of his linemates are themselves still learning how to play in the NHL.
 

Foppberg

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I'm still very high on Jost, you can see the glimpses of skill and vision. He's gotta thicken up a bit but the potential is there.
 

Piestany88

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I'll catch heat for this, but the offense doesn't matter between Kerfoot and Jost with regards to them being a #2C... both will produce just fine for that role. Where I think the issue really lies is the defense. Kerfoot has the effort, but is simply too small to be effective. Jost has a long ways to go with skating and has to bulk up a lot... which bulking up usually tends to hurt skating to a degree. I think both end up at wing long-term. Compher gives me the most hope for the #2C spot (of the NHL forwards), but he needs to be slotted there and allowed the opportunity to seize it. In the system Bowers probably tops the potential list for #2C, then Kamenev and Beaudin behind him. Bowers' questions are more on the offense translating... if he can be a ~50 point guy, I think he is a lock for that role and will be a really good #2C. Kamenev is a bit of a question mark, the talent is there... he just needs to fully learn how to apply it. Beaudin is a bit of a longer term guy (mid season 19-20 is probably when he establishes himself in the NHL), but offense will be the question there.
Beaudin is small too, slight build
 

Bender

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Barrie's play confuses me. Some have suggested that he may still be injured, but I see no noticeable signs that he is playing at less than 100%. I am watching him and it seems like his hockey IQ has severely diminished, both defensively and particularly offensively.

It seems strange. Others have suggested that perhaps Bednar's system is restricting his natural playing style, I don't know. He still is picking up points, but he does not seem to be as impactful as in the past.


I remember the first game against the Rangers and he was terrific, so maybe a lingering injury issue is at play?

My personal belief is that with Barrie, he's the type of guy that to be at his very best, you just need to 'hand over the keys'. Problem is, there's a pretty good chance he's going to crash the car if you do but if he doesn't, you're in great shape. Right now, I think Barrie is stuck in the middle of how he'd like to play and how they're asking him to play and the result is not great even though he's productive.

Looks like the Avs are trying out Jost to be that 2nd line center, but even if Jost turns out to be a good NHL forward, i don't think he's a goal scorer, he and Kerfoot are kind of similar, pass and make plays instead of shoot, and they don't have that natural goal scoring talent. That's what that line is gonna need, a goal scorer, i really don't see Jost and Kerfoot being a long term solution on the 2nd line

Edit: Or make a trade for a goal scorer and have Kerfoot-Jost-??? line, two play makers and a goal scorer, that could work

I think we need a pure elite playmaker more than we need a pure sniper/goalscorer. I'm talking a playmaker the level of a guy like Giroux that can take the puck into the zone, slow the play down and draw players to him and then feed a guy like MacKinnon or Rantanen. A guy that can find others open when they don't appear to be open at all. Similar to when Girard gained the zone against the Capitals and slowed everything down and made a beautiful little pass to MacKinnon.

It takes a player with a high hockey IQ to be able to create those kinds of plays. That's why I was pushing so hard for a Duchene trade to the Islanders that needed to include Barzal and why I'm talking about Barrie for Marner right now.

When I look at the Avs lineup, I'm not necessarily seeing a bunch of guys that keep getting glorious chances and not scoring because they are good players but bad goal-scorers, I'm seeing a lack of creativity that's not enabling guys to actually get those chances to begin with.

MacKinnon is a pretty good (not great) playmaker but his game is more built on doing everything at top speed and that's hard to stop. Imagine if you have that kind of playmaker feeding him the puck? He'd score 40 goals for sure.
 

Pierce Hawthorne

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I dunno I dont see it with Jost nearly as much as others. His skating is really quite awful. I hadn't really noticed it until these last couple of games but now that I've started focusing in on it and really looking at it, it's bad. I remember one point in last nights game he and Stralman were in a race for the puck. Stralman was a bit ahead and was noticeably not skating very hard, while Jost was giving it his all and Stralman easily beat him to the puck. Now Stralman isn't a bad skater by any means but the fact Jost couldn't catch him when Stralman was going at maybe 75% was just not good at all.


Unless he can really improve his skating the amount ROR was able to, I dont see him being an effective NHLer.


I thought about this just to myself the other day but he's someone I can see the Avs packaging in a deal to get a legit high quality 2C over then ext couple years. Not sure who that player will be(I was thinking about ROR at the time), but someone who's already established in the role and very good at it, to take some pressure off of Mackinnon and add another scoring threat we currently dont have.


I think he'll still get another year or so to really try and prove himself capable of that role, and I hope they also give Compher a chance to earn that role. But I dont think Jost is going to prove capable of it and unless Compher is able to I think the solution will have to come externally.
 

Pokecheque

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For me, I see things very much like this : remember how FOR YEARS it always seemed way more complicated and difficult than it needed to be to find wingers that Matt Duchene could play with? The whole chemistry thing always seemed to be 'off''? Does that remind you of anyone on the backend at all? Isn't Barrie that very same guy where we're always having a hard time finding him the right partner?? EJ you can pretty much plug anyone and he's good-to-go but Barrie, it's always more complicated. We played one game without him this year and I thought the defense looked frikkin' fantastic. Maybe its a coincidence, maybe it's not.

Whoa...no. No no no.

I don't think the situations are comparable. They have one commonality and I'll go into that in just a sec, but Duchene's big hangup was that his playing style was very similar to Mats Sundin in that he plays a lot like a wing. He needs linemates who do what centers normally do, which is why playmaking wingers (Fleischman, to a lesser extent, O'Reilly) clicked so well with him. So did Kerfoot. In Ottawa you can see they're having the same issues now.

Barrie simply hasn't had a decent partner, certainly no one who has finally taken the job and run with it. And a big part of that is that the Avs still have yet to produce a reliable FIRST pairing. This is still one of the worst defensive teams in the league. That's not on Barrie, that's on the Avs. It's ridiculous that they still can't seem to find a guy who can play a reliable, steady, defensive game as a #4 guy.

Yes, Barrie is struggling right now. I'm convinced like many others that he's not completely healthy, and I'm also convinced his confidence is shaken. You could almost literally see him tighten up the minute Bednar pulled the goalie. I think that's why his passes seem so errant and he's handling the puck nervously on the point. I also think that it's possible Bednar's messing with his game again and not allowing him the free rein that Roy did. Barrie is at his best moving the puck up-ice through traffic, acting like a fourth forward. He needs a reliable partner who can steady the back end so he can do this. He doesn't have to be elite, just reliable. So far the Avs have partnered him with Nemeth, Girard, Barberio (UGH), Lindholm (also ugh), and EJ and Z but in very limited minutes. It's no coincidence that he's looked his best this season with EJ, which still makes me wonder why they don't try it more often, RH/LH stuff be damned.

Look what happened when they put Landeskog back with MacKinnon. You find someone like that for Barrie (AND get a good first pairing) and you will see him work the way he's supposed to. Once again, like so many other players who have come and gone with Colorado, the problem wasn't the player--they failed to build around him.
 

Piestany88

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What? No. Beaudin is 6'2 187lbs

For all the criticism of Jost not creating offense 5v5, Compher hasn't done much either. He looks fantastic on the pk and the breakaways (could finish a couple more of those) but he also hasn't had a great CF% all year.
6'2 hahaha he really must have grown but either way he doesn't have 2nd line potential
 

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