Disappointed, Surprised and Annoyed

[SirloinUB]

I'm happy with the deadline.

One thing I repeated in the lead up is any trade for Tatar had to be worthwhile. Nothing would have pissed me off more than taking a bs 2nd rounder and B prospect. Glad holland didn't trade Tatar for the sake of it as many here had hoped. Holland set the price and stuck to it.

In regrades to Green I had hopes for a 1st + but you can't blame holland if those kind of offers never materialized. That and injuries are out of his control. It's unfortunate but it is what it is.

Like with Tatar, I feel Green has more value on the wings than a second rate offer consisting of conditional picks and mediocre prospects. Furthermore, what happens if Holland caves on his asking price in the final hour? Say he settled for some mediocre offer less than his asking price, What happens with future deals when teams know holland is willing to cave just to get a deal done? There is something to be said about identifying you're expected value and sticking to it. Teams know they can't lowball holland for good assets.

I like having Green. Having at least one capable puck mover is huge for our young forwards. He can also help shelter a younger dman like Hronek or Hicketts down the stretch here. I'm hoping Holland can resign him on a 2 year contract at 4.5 mm per year.

 

[chances14]

And yeah, I take a sixth all day for Darren Helm.
Or a fifth for Howard.

funny you say that considering it was you posting in the mrazek thread that acquiring 3rd round picks and later are pointless because they almost never produce regular nhl players

 

[Red Stanley]

I forgot Tampa and Toronto.

I basically think that Mrazek could have become that core player for us.

I think the picks and prospects are way overrated on this board.

It's extremely hard to judge goalie performance when they play behind a dumpster fire defense. I'm not surprised Mrazek is doing fine in Philly (so far). I hope they trade Howard next year and wouldn't be surprised if he does fine on a better team. We're at a point where goaltending should be the last thing to worry about. Keep plugging in randoms until we sort out the back end. I'd feel bad for any goalie who tried to build a career on this current team.

 

[Winger98]

If players were only ever traded at 1459hrs on deadline day, wouldn' we stop seeing trades before the before draft, at the draft, before the season or during the season?

Do we see many trades during the season? Teams like to move around at the draft to get guys they want and to make moves during the summer before their budgets are set. Then the cap really does just kill movement until the deadline where cap space has accumulated a bit and teams don't have to take on whole contracts. Even then, look at how many deals required teams to retain money on expiring contracts.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I'm going to reserve my judgment on the no Green trade until the offseason.

It sounds like he wants to stay here, so if he re-signs for an easier to move short term deal at a reasonable cost, then IMO it isn't really a big deal.

However, if he leaves, we can question why they didn't salvage even a minor return for him.

Obviously we're never going to know what kind of offers or interest Holland got for Green, but it's entirely possible that the few teams interested didn't have the cap space and/or wanted the Wings to take on bad salary with term. It sounded like there was mutual interest between Green and the Caps, but even with Green retained, the Caps would've had to move salary. They also decided to add two depth rental Dman. I almost wonder if the Caps were only interested if the Wings took back Orpik in the deal, which for me would be a deal killer. It was also rumored that the Caps didn't want to give up a 1st for a rental 2 years in a row. For the Leafs it could've revolved around getting rid of Martins contract, which again isn't ideal. Knowing that Green would have "Green light " his destination, other teams might have lowballed or offered deals that included less than desirable assets in return.

That said, it's hard to gauge what Green might have returned. Looking at the Dmen that moved at this years deadline, you have a bidding war over a legit top pairing guy with another years term in McDonagh, a cap dump in Phaneuf, a whole bunch of depth rentals in Cole, Holden, Kempny and Jerabek and then a couple of "change of scenery" RFA eligible guys in Mike Reilly and Davidson. Green was somewhere in the mushy center as a rental top 4 PP specialist with a reasonable cap implication, likely higher price tag and an ongoing injury issue.

It also seemed like the list of potential destinations shrank as the deadline approached. It was speculated for a while that the Kings might make a deal for a dman, but opted for Phaneuf as it didn't cost any futures and gave them a way out of Gaboriks contract. The Caps opted instead to spend a 3rd and 5th on a couple of cheaper depth rentals. The Lightning (and apparently Vegas and the Sharks) shifted priority to landing Karlsson or McDonagh, before landing one of them or getting another big fish on the market.

The way I see it, the Red Wings basically got what most here speculated Green AND Tatar would've returned in just the Tatar trade. Green was supposed to bring a late 1st (or what the goalposts have now been moved to in the TDL thread, "a worthless fundamental 2nd") and even Bob McKenzie thought Tatar was only worth a 2nd and a prospect or another pick. Sure, they could've gotten more if they took whatever they could for Green, but if he sticks around and re-signs, they can accomplish that at the end of the next deal.

 

[Datsyukian Deke]

When is E’s contract up?

Not soon enough.

 

[14ari13]

He was here in a substantial capacity for four years. I don’t think it was ever happening here.

For a goalie to be a core guy, he’s got to be on the shortlist for the Vezina every year. Not for one half a season. He’s got to be a consistent force that leads you to wins and gives you a huge advantage just by having him play game to game. Not go on streaks

Developing Dmen and goalies takes time, much longer than forwards.
I can’t believe I had to write this.
Back in the day people said pronger sucked. Hasek too. Lidstrom nowhere as good as he became. It is hard to judge Dmen and goalies. You have to give them a second chance and let them rebound.

 

[sepster]

funny you say that considering it was you posting in the mrazek thread that acquiring 3rd round picks and later are pointless because they almost never produce regular nhl players

I would take a pointless pick to dump a worthless player with a shit contract.

 

[Redder Winger]

funny you say that considering it was you posting in the mrazek thread that acquiring 3rd round picks and later are pointless because they almost never produce regular nhl players

Interesting point.
Doesn't really answer what I said.
But try this exercise.
Envision Darren Helm and how you see his career unfolding in Detroit.
What's a likely positive scenario.
What's a likely negative scenario.

In my estimation, at best I see him playing 3 more healthy years, scoring 35 goals and maybe 90 points.
At worst, I can see him playing only 120 games, scoring 20 goals and 45 points.

How easily do you replace that?

You look at Mrazek or Tatar, and the upside such a scenario much harder to replace.

 

[jkutswings]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

 

[Redder Winger]

He was here in a substantial capacity for four years. I don’t think it was ever happening here.

For a goalie to be a core guy, he’s got to be on the shortlist for the Vezina every year. Not for one half a season. He’s got to be a consistent force that leads you to wins and gives you a huge advantage just by having him play game to game. Not go on streaks

Corey Crawford has finished in top five voting for the Vezina once.
Is he a core player?
Go ask Chicago fans.

Mrazek didn't even need to be a Vezina guy or Crawford to be the guy to keep.
He just needed to be Jimmy Howard for 7 years -- hold the fort until the next is ready.
It's pretty clear he could do that.

 

[waltdetroit]

I'm going to reserve my judgment on the no Green trade until the offseason.
It sounded like there was mutual interest between Green and the Caps, but even with Green retained, the Caps would've had to move salary. They also decided to add two depth rental Dman..

The Caps GM stated on the radio (and I paraphrase) that they weren't going to trade their 1st like they did last year. He said you can't go all-in every year without hurting your prospect farm. I too thought that the Caps (& Maybe TML) had made offers that included big contracts coming back or low ball deals.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

That article does a good job of summing it up.

 

[waltdetroit]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

Should be "unhappy with not dealing"...double negative

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Developing Dmen and goalies takes time, much longer than forwards.
I can’t believe I had to write this.
Back in the day people said pronger sucked. Hasek too. Lidstrom nowhere as good as he became. It is hard to judge Dmen and goalies. You have to give them a second chance and let them rebound.

He was here four years and he wasn't improving.. He was making the same mistake over and over and over. If he had improved year over year, I'd buy what you're selling.

Petr Mrazek was in year 4 the exact same risk-taking, reactionary goalie who was incredibly hot and cold.

His rebound control wasn't improving and it did not sound like he was gung-ho about fixing it.
His propensity to lock in on the shooter and get eaten alive by back door chances waas not changing.

It is hard to judge goalies because the difference between success and failure is about half an inch. I can tell you by watching Mrazek play that he was not getting better without drastically changing what he was doing. His entire game was predicated on using his athleticism to make stops. Highlight reel stuff like when he robbed Brian Boyle blind in the playoffs. On a game-in, game-out basis, that's an awful way to play the position. He truly is very talented, so he can for spurts make it work... but it's just not a sustainable way to play.

The arguments for/against Mrazek are identical to the ones for/against AA. They are both really talented players. They both have times were they make you say "WOW". But they both really really lack the game-in, game-out consistency that you need to be a truly elite player in the league.

And also... Mrazek is successful at all because he's just a physical freak. Let's see what happens when he ages to 30 and he's a little bit slower and can't just react to shots. His game has all the trademarks of falling apart VERY QUICKLY if you choose to ride with him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That article does a good job of summing it up.

That article is nonsense.

The only thing "inexcusable" is to bleat on about how bad a GM is because he didn't trade an injured player who went from the top D on the market to an injured 3rd option in the last week before the TDL.

If Green doesn't get hurt, he's traded.
If NYR and OTT don't go insane and offer up their prime-aged #1Ds, Green is gone.

People here always do this. Vanek last year was destined to return a 1st. When he didn't because teams don't want to pay that much for a forward you have to baby to get his stats, OMG HOLLAND SO STUPID. Green was certainly going to draw a 1st... then "HOLLAND WHY DIDN'T YOU TRADE HIM FOR A FIVE DOLLAR BILL!

Also to the people saying "just ask for a conditional if he's hurt" If he's hurt, the other team doesn't want to give you anything. If he's potentially hurt, they don't want to give you a good return because even if he plays, how good would he be if he's coming off an injury? And if you're putting crazy conditions on the pick... you're basically saying "yeah, we know he's hurt" and you should worry about it.

Injury conditions are generally for if you're trying to land a long term asset and make something good from that injured player or a guy with an injury history. Not a rental who just had a neck injury right beforehand.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

That article is nonsense.

I think this is a little too surface-level a reading of the article. It starts out saying that the Wings should have traded Green. But the substantive point is not that Holland should have done anything at all to shed Green's contract, it's that Holland has been careless with his contracts and his misplaced loyalty and it's coming back to bite him.

Unfortunately, Holland doesn't seem to care much about rebuilding this team, so it's not biting him. It's more like it's biting us.

 

[TheMule93]

People weren't mad at Holland for the Vanek trade. They were surprised, disappointed and upset that the best offer he got was a third, but accepted it for what it was. We all understood that no doubt Holland tried to get the best he could.

The same thing would have happened if greener got moved for a relatively low amount compared to what he was projected to get. At least we would have gotten something. Instead we got nothing and hurt our draft position if he returns and gets us even one more win.

 

[TheMule93]

Here's the Vanek trade thread http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-for-2017-3rd-rd-pick-dylan-mcilrath.2197125/

Initially there were one or two posts being upset at Holland but as discussion went on that opinion disappeared pretty quickly.

 

[raymond23]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

An article that claims Green hasn't been very good (then sights his +/- as proof) and lists Matej Machovsky as a top prospect generating buzz (over Rasmussen, Cholowski, Larsson, etc.) doesn't have much validity to me.

I agree with his view on NTC's and the amount Kenny hands out, but the rest of the article is so shallow and ill-informed.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think this is a little too surface-level a reading of the article. It starts out saying that the Wings should have traded Green. But the substantive point is not that Holland should have done anything at all to shed Green's contract, it's that Holland has been careless with his contracts and his misplaced loyalty and it's coming back to bite him.

Unfortunately, Holland doesn't seem to care much about rebuilding this team, so it's not biting him. It's more like it's biting us.

There isn't much beyond surface level.

It's 'Wings didn't trade Green and that's bad". Wings have a bunch of NTCs and that's bad.

The thing to remember is that Green wasn't a careless contract nor a case of a loyalty deal. If there is any contract Detroit has which is an awful example of what you're trying to convey, it's Mike Green. He was a UFA that the Wings had to offer things to get to come here. This is like *****ing that the Tigers overpaid Magglio Ordonez in 2005. Or the Lions gave Marvin Jones 8M per.

 

[pz29]

I'm not familiar with Kevin Skiver at CBS, but he was definitely not happy with not dealing Green (and with Holland overall):

Why the Red Wings are the biggest loser at the NHL's trade deadline

this guy's level of understanding is questionable: "Green has been relatively healthy in Detroit, he just hasn't played well. "

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

There isn't much beyond surface level.

It's 'Wings didn't trade Green and that's bad". Wings have a bunch of NTCs and that's bad.

The thing to remember is that Green wasn't a careless contract nor a case of a loyalty deal. If there is any contract Detroit has which is an awful example of what you're trying to convey, it's Mike Green. He was a UFA that the Wings had to offer things to get to come here. This is like *****ing that the Tigers overpaid Magglio Ordonez in 2005. Or the Lions gave Marvin Jones 8M per.

The lesson learned here is when you offer clauses like that, there are hidden future costs. If you need to offer an NTC for a guy who isn't a star, you're probably paying too much. And if you feel you need to acquire a guy because he's your only option, you should think about where your team is in the hockey lifecycle first. If you're on the upswing, it's not a great idea, but okay. If you're falling apart and trying to delay that with UFAs, you're out of your mind.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

The lesson learned here is when you offer clauses like that, there are hidden future costs. If you need to offer an NTC for a guy who isn't a star, you're probably paying too much. And if you feel you need to acquire a guy because he's your only option, you should think about where your team is in the hockey lifecycle first. If you're on the upswing, it's not a great idea, but okay. If you're falling apart and trying to delay that with UFAs, you're out of your mind.

Green was not traded because he got hurt and because McDonagh and Karlsson were on the market.

How many teams were actually in on him? Two. Both of whom he waived the NTC for. I don't believe for a second that Toronto actually had a reasonable offer on the table for him

The NTC issue is giving one to Abby and Helm and your own guys not a UFA that you didn't plan to sell at the signing of the deal.

 

[jkutswings]

He was a UFA that the Wings had to offer things to get to come here. This is like *****ing that the Tigers overpaid Magglio Ordonez in 2005. Or the Lions gave Marvin Jones 8M per.

Not at all equivalent situations.

The Tigers overpaid, starting with Pudge, because the team had already been lousy for a decade, and nobody was ever going to take their money without an overpayment.

The Lions haven't been a good team in a quarter century, and haven't had a pattern of even decent drafting in nearly that long, so free agency is their last option to add any talent.

The Wings simply didn't want to embrace the reality that they needed to rebuild, even after they were a token playoff team at best, and fought it tooth and nail, even to the point of significant overpayments and excessive distribution of NTCs.